Northern line TBTC/ATO

[n4dave]

So NMA6 Chalk Farm to Edgware is scheduled to go live Sunday 18th May subject to further test days but everyone seems confident that this date will not change.
It is still months ahead of schedule and although there have been some very minor delays ( some are train op. related ) most of the TBTC system has been working really well.
So that means the whole Northern line will be ATO in May , there is still some work to adjust certain speed restrictions before they bring in extra trains for a new big timetable change December 2014.

 

[Mikey C]

I see this morning at Golders Green station that the destination indicators have now been upgraded to show future trains and times at last (and hopefully more accurately!), I presume that this is as a result of the latest stage of the TBTC implementation.

 

[Domh245]

I believe it is, seeing as the final section (NMA 6 Chalk Farm - Edgware) has now gone over to TBTC. As such, the entire line is now ATO as of 1400 yesterday aftenoon

 

[Mikey C]

I believe it is, seeing as the final section (NMA 6 Chalk Farm - Edgware) has now gone over to TBTC. As such, the entire line is now ATO as of 1400 yesterday aftenoon

And well done to all concerned, when I think back to the never ending Jubilee Line upgrade sage!

 

[simple simon]

I believe it is, seeing as the final section (NMA 6 Chalk Farm - Edgware) has now gone over to TBTC. As such, the entire line is now ATO as of 1400 yesterday aftenoon

So when will the line stop offering slower journeys than it did 40 years ago?

In other words:

Compared to the Central and Victoria Lines the Northern Line is a veritable snail. Now that it is fully automated when will its trains start operating at full power and higher speeds?

For instance, when travelling past the Met Police site in the Colindale area the trains seems to dawdle at about 20mph, when the distance between the stations is such that 50mph+ should be possible.

The trains are, I understand, capable of 75mph; so lets see some action and a clean pair of heels when departing stations!

Simon

 

[Domh245]

I believe that come December, there will be some improvements in terms of performance, with a timetable based on ATO performance. There will also have been some line speed increases, but line speed can also be affected by track quality, which is notoriously bad in some places on the northern, hence the track replacement programme that is going on.

 

[100andthirty]

The trains are, I understand, capable of 75mph; so lets see some action and a clean pair of heels when departing stations!

Simon

60MPH is all they are capable of!

 

[andos]

I read something on district dave about 70 separate speed restrictions being removed from the Northern line in late June. This will be followed with a new timetable with faster journeys but only a very minor improvement to train frequency. So there should hopefully be at least some improvement before December!

http://districtdave.proboards.com/post/387259/thread

 

[n4dave]

I read something on district dave about 70 separate speed restrictions being removed from the Northern line in late June. This will be followed with a new timetable with faster journeys but only a very minor improvement to train frequency. So there should hopefully be at least some improvement before December!

http://districtdave.proboards.com/post/387259/thread

This is correct , it takes ages to delete speed restrictions from the main computing system . The line diagrams they used in the first place where not always correct plus many fine adjustments are needed.
Timetable 55 is out in December even more trains and faster journey times with stepping back for drivers at Morden.
The system is working very well and expect improvements in the year

 

[Busaholic]

This is correct , it takes ages to delete speed restrictions from the main computing system . The line diagrams they used in the first place where not always correct plus many fine adjustments are needed.
Timetable 55 is out in December even more trains and faster journey times with stepping back for drivers at Morden.
The system is working very well and expect improvements in the year

Glad to hear all this. But how long will it last when this ridiculous Battersea extension gets under way?

 

[LUdriver]

No reason why the Battersea extension should affect the rest of the Northern line any more than the odd weekend closure right before it is finished and ready to be rolled out.

Also the U.S. Embassy is funding the bulk of the work. Great news for the taxpayer.

It is still in the planning and strategy stages at the moment it will be years before the construction will start, let alone completed.

 

[Busaholic]

No reason why the Battersea extension should affect the rest of the Northern line any more than the odd weekend closure right before it is finished and ready to be rolled out.

Also the U.S. Embassy is funding the bulk of the work. Great news for the taxpayer.

It is still in the planning and strategy stages at the moment it will be years before the construction will start, let alone completed.

I hope it won't get beyond these stages.

I'm certainly older and probably more cynical than you. Is, for instance, the U.S. embassy funding the extra 3-5 (my estimate) trains necessary? If not,why not?

As I understand it, trains from Battersea will only proceed along the Charing Cross line from Kennington, indeed may physically only be able to do this. I can't imagine, if that is the case, that Morden trains will be scheduled at any time other than via Bank, thus creating operational inflexibility on what is already the most complicated of L.U. lines. The periodic call for the two northern branches to then offer a direct service via only one each of the central London lines will become a clarion one from people who just look at a map and have no day-by-day experience: the resulting mayhem at Camden Town each rush hour as passengers switch between lines will ensure that the schrduled t.p.h. can rarely be achieved.

I believe there is a better way to achieve a tube service to Nine Elms and Battersea without an enormous amount of extra expenditure (and,no, NOT involving the Victoria Line) and still meeting main traffic objectives. If enough interest is shown I'll briefly outline it here.

 

[LUdriver]

An extra 20 trains I believe it is.

The northern line will be split once Camden has undergone big redevelopment so it can take the interchange. At the moment it wouldn't be able to handle a split line during peak hours. High Barnet trains will run via charing cross to battersea. Edgware branch trains via bank to morden.

 

[Manchester77]

An extra 20 trains I believe it is.

The northern line will be split once Camden has undergone big redevelopment so it can take the interchange. At the moment it wouldn't be able to handle a split line during peak hours. High Barnet trains will run via charing cross to battersea. Edgware branch trains via bank to morden.

That 20 isn't just for the northern line it's to cover for extra jubilee line trains too.

 

[Busaholic]

An extra 20 trains I believe it is.

The northern line will be split once Camden has undergone big redevelopment so it can take the interchange. At the moment it wouldn't be able to handle a split line during peak hours. High Barnet trains will run via charing cross to battersea. Edgware branch trains via bank to morden.

But have also heard apparently authoritative reports saying the opposite i.e. High Barnet via Bank to Morden and Edgware to Battersea via Charing Cross. Everyone seems to agree though that Battersea trains will go on to the Charing Cross line. Does anyone know if there is an OFFICIAL position?

 

[Class377/5]

That 20 isn't just for the northern line it's to cover for extra jubilee line trains too.

I thought that the Northern Line requires additional stock for extra increase above the planned increases from when the 95ts order was placed in addition to the Jubilee units.

 

[Manchester77]

I thought that the Northern Line requires additional stock for extra increase above the planned increases from when the 95ts order was placed in addition to the Jubilee units.

It might have changed but I thought it was a combined cologne order for NLU2 and 36tph on the jubilee line with the possibility of retractioning for the 96 stock (to the traction package seen on the 95 stock)

 

[D365]

I believe there is a better way to achieve a tube service to Nine Elms and Battersea without an enormous amount of extra expenditure (and,no, NOT involving the Victoria Line) and still meeting main traffic objectives. If enough interest is shown I'll briefly outline it here.

If you're considering starting your own thread on your alternative Battersea proposal, I'd certainly be interested, as I'm sure others would be.

But have also heard apparently authoritative reports saying the opposite i.e. High Barnet via Bank to Morden and Edgware to Battersea via Charing Cross. Everyone seems to agree though that Battersea trains will go on to the Charing Cross line. Does anyone know if there is an OFFICIAL position?

The NLE Battersea branch will be connected to the outer lines at Kennington, which means trains to/from Battersea will always use the Charing Cross branch. The run-around loop between the outer platforms will remain in place for the sake operational convenience with terminating trains.

I refer here to the TfL "Proposed route and key sites" map: https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/nle/consult_view

The reason why the Northern Line will (eventually) be split into two separate Edgware-(Charing Cross)-Battersea and High Barnet-(Bank)-Morden lines is because the two depots are located at Golders Green and Morden. If the lines were to be split through Edgware-(Bank)-Morden and High Barnet-(Charing Cross)-Battersea, the former line would (as things stand) sport two depots and the second none.

I thought that the Northern Line requires additional stock for extra increase above the planned increases from when the 95ts order was placed in addition to the Jubilee units.

Is it the case then that the Jubilee Line also requires additional units in the future? IIRC the 96/95-type TSs cannot be built any more. This will mean that some consideration is required as to which lines deserve a new fleet when, and whether displaced units can be cascaded to another line. The two Alstom builds may yet find a bit more life remaining in them.

It might have changed but I thought it was a combined cologne order for NLU2 and 36tph on the jubilee line with the possibility of retractioning for the 96 stock (to the traction package seen on the 95 stock)

As I understood it, one of the two present Northern Line 'branches' will receive a new train fleet, with the displaced 95TS allocation to be distributed between the other Northern 'branch' and the Jubilee line - though in the latter case, it would require a unit or two to be disbanded in order to make up the rest to seven cars.

On the other hand, would 95/96TS fleet standardisation on the Jubilee Line be economical, with regards to their remaining lifetime. Aside from the unit formation and traction packages, what other differences remain?

 

[Class377/5]

Is it the case then that the Jubilee Line also requires additional units in the future? IIRC the 96/95-type TSs cannot be built any more. This will mean that some consideration is required as to which lines deserve a new fleet when, and whether displaced units can be cascaded to another line. The two Alstom builds may yet find a bit more life remaining in them.

Where did you get that idea from? Alstom and TfL are looking a 95ts clones for both lines with the 96ts upgraded to match the 95ts traction.

Jubilee needs extra trains for the proposed 36tph peak service along with extra Northern Line trains.

 

[D365]

Where did you get that idea from? Alstom and TfL are looking a 95ts clones for both lines with the 96ts upgraded to match the 95ts traction.

Jubilee needs extra trains for the proposed 36tph peak service along with extra Northern Line trains.

I can't keep up with which regulations do or don't prevent which models from being built!

Sounds about right though.

 

[Busaholic]

If you're considering starting your own thread on your alternative Battersea proposal, I'd certainly be interested, as I'm sure others would be.




The NLE Battersea branch will be connected to the outer lines at Kennington, which means trains to/from Battersea will always use the Charing Cross branch. The run-around loop between the outer platforms will remain in place for the sake operational convenience with terminating trains.

I refer here to the TfL "Proposed route and key sites" map: https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/nle/consult_view

The reason why the Northern Line will (eventually) be split into two separate Edgware-(Charing Cross)-Battersea and High Barnet-(Bank)-Morden lines is because the two depots are located at Golders Green and Morden. If the lines were to be split through Edgware-(Bank)-Morden and High Barnet-(Charing Cross)-Battersea, the former line would (as things stand) sport two depots and the second none.




Is it the case then that the Jubilee Line also requires additional units in the future? IIRC the 96/95-type TSs cannot be built any more. This will mean that some consideration is required as to which lines deserve a new fleet when, and whether displaced units can be cascaded to another line. The two Alstom builds may yet find a bit more life remaining in them.




As I understood it, one of the two present Northern Line 'branches' will receive a new train fleet, with the displaced 95TS allocation to be distributed between the other Northern 'branch' and the Jubilee line - though in the latter case, it would require a unit or two to be disbanded in order to make up the rest to seven cars.

On the other hand, would 95/96TS fleet standardisation on the Jubilee Line be economical, with regards to their remaining lifetime. Aside from the unit formation and traction packages, what other differences remain?

Thank you for clarifying everything so well. I am new to this forum but have almost 60 years of interest in public transport in London, a very few of them working for L.T. in management on both bus and underground, including Northern Line HQ. When I've worked out both how to start a new thread and what I want to say precisely I'll take that route!

 

[Class377/5]

I can't keep up with which regulations do or don't prevent which models from being built!

Sounds about right though.

I *think* the 95ts are generally compliant with current standards.

 

[Mikey C]

The new signalling is generally working very well, but one curio is that what seems like EVERY southbound train from Golders Green seems to hand around for a couple of minutes before departing, so that the next train from Brent Cross has to pause outside the station to get a platform.
Any idea what this is for, as it's not driver changes?

 

[greatkingrat]

At the moment, all SB off-peak trains have a booked 1.5 min wait at Golders Green. A new timetable will come into effect next week which should see reduced running times.

 

[Nym]

Maybe if they re-wrote the auto drive unit to take into account the better performance of the 95TS compared with 96TS then they'd get even more, then it wouldn't feel like a B92 DLR unit setting off all the time (I'd have thought Thalys would have learned!)

 

[Mikey C]

At the moment, all SB off-peak trains have a booked 1.5 min wait at Golders Green. A new timetable will come into effect next week which should see reduced running times.

Great, thanks. It's really noticeable, and quite annoying!

 

[Tetchytyke]

A new timetable will come into effect next week which should see reduced running times.

They've been announcing that all week, telling us that there will be a lot of changes in the AM peak. Does anybody know what those changes are? The TfL website doesn't want to reveal the secret.

 

[Dstock7080]

Does anybody know what those changes are? The TfL website doesn't want to reveal the secret.

As from 14 December WTT55 comes into operation.

M-F: 3 additional trains are scheduled from Morden depot in the peaks, with 96 trains now out in each peak.
'Stepping-back' of drivers introduced at Morden in both peaks.
During the morning peak 26tph NB Bank branch, 22tph NB Charing Cross branch.
In the morning peak NB 30tph now run NB from Morden for 90mins, this is reversed to SB in the evening peak. NB morning peak services have been reversed to operate to Edgware from Bank branch, High Barnet/Mill Hill from CX branch.
At off-peak times a 20tph service runs in the Central area, with 80 trains in service.

SAT: Services increased to 20tph throughout the line with 80 trains now in service.

SUN: Before 1000 services increased to 18.25tph in Central area. Charing Cross branch trains continue to terminate at Kennington.
After 1000 services increased to 20tph throughout the line with 80 trains now in service.

Running time reductions:
Edgware-Camden Town: SB -1¾, NB -3¼
High Barnet-Camden: SB -2, NB -1½
Mill Hill East-Finchley Central: both 0
Camden Town-Kennington (CX): SB -1, NB -1
Camden Town-Kennington (Bank): SB -¾, NB -¼
Kennington-Tooting: SB 0, NB -½
Tooting-Morden: SB -½, NB -¼ .