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Son turned off train for 'illegible railcard'
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Minilad
Established Member
Maybe because the son didn't tell dad the full story. For whatever reason
Yeah because its only ever the customer that is wrong and probably lying. I never make mistakes in my job
I have said all that I've been told. I will speak to my son before making any complaint and tell him that if there is an investigation the full story Iif there is more to add) will come out. I will point out that my making a complaint on his behalf will be giving the train operator his name, so if he behaved in any way that was unacceptable they may want to take action against him. If I have any doubt in my son's story I won't make the complaint.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Thanks for this clarification Essexman.
I will say that I have no reason to doubt you nor your son, and I am quite happy to take everything you've posted here on its merit.
But I will tell you something based purely on my own, limited, personal experiences.
I have assisted a number of parents while advocating for their children following a confrontation, dispute or outright Claim or Criminal Prosecution, and while the parent was absolutely persuaded of their child's innocence. Would you beleive, that in every single matter where the parent was fully supportive of the child, that under questionning when the evidence was produced, the child had confessed to wrongdoing?
It's hard to accept. Very hard. We just never know how far the young mind is still struggling to conform their imagination with the perception of others (and in these cases, with the perception of professional investigators).
I make no presumtion in you case, Essexman, and I hope that my fear is wrong. But I just thought you might find it useful to know what I, and others working in this field, will have experienced, and which might fuel any suspicions.
Good luck!
Flamingo
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Some points to consider here, from looking at posts so far on this thread and a few misconceptions they contain:
- The procedure with an invalid railcard is to sell a new ticket for the journey, not excess it.
- If a passenger is at a manned station with a booking office, they can always use the SILK procedure to purchase a ticket, so they are by no means stranded.
- I was trained that except in exceptional circumstances, a UFN should only be made to the next manned station where the passenger can alight and use the SILK process to pay to continue their journey. I would not consider a 20 year-old male at a manned station with a booking office in need of exceptional treatment.
- The guard will not consider delaying a train to fill in a UFN, when the booking office at the next station would do so.
- There are ways of "exposing" the date on a railcard, but I would urge the OP not to do this without reliable witnesses as the date will permanently fade after it's been done. What is the date on the receipt from when it was purchased? This will be a good indication as to when it expires.
So, you can all jump back on the outrage bus, but make sure you don't overload it (Capicity 56 seated, 14 standing).
- The procedure with an invalid railcard is to sell a new ticket for the journey, not excess it.
- If a passenger is at a manned station with a booking office, they can always use the SILK procedure to purchase a ticket, so they are by no means stranded.
- I was trained that except in exceptional circumstances, a UFN should only be made to the next manned station where the passenger can alight and use the SILK process to pay to continue their journey. I would not consider a 20 year-old male at a manned station with a booking office in need of exceptional treatment.
- The guard will not consider delaying a train to fill in a UFN, when the booking office at the next station would do so.
- There are ways of "exposing" the date on a railcard, but I would urge the OP not to do this without reliable witnesses as the date will permanently fade after it's been done. What is the date on the receipt from when it was purchased? This will be a good indication as to when it expires.
So, you can all jump back on the outrage bus, but make sure you don't overload it (Capicity 56 seated, 14 standing).
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Very true, we still haven't heard from the OP if the railcard was valid, been altered in some way to arise suspicion.
Railcard valid (I bought it for him last July), worn and not fully legible but not altered.
I spoke to my son tonight and he confirmed story. Said he wasn't offered the chance to pay the extra to full price ticket but was told he;'d have to buy a new one. He didn't have enough money for this so got off train as instructed by the guard.
I spoke to my son tonight and he confirmed story. Said he wasn't offered the chance to pay the extra to full price ticket but was told he;'d have to buy a new one. He didn't have enough money for this so got off train as instructed by the guard.
GaryMcEwan
Established Member
Did your son buy his ticket from a Self Service machine or from a ticket office?
If it was a ticket office then if it wasn't fully legible but hard to read then the agent at the ticket desk should have had a look at and even possibly taken the initiative to replace it for him.
Doing that is meant to include a £10 'admin fee' depending on what TOC it is, but most of them do it for nothing.
If it was a ticket office then if it wasn't fully legible but hard to read then the agent at the ticket desk should have had a look at and even possibly taken the initiative to replace it for him.
Doing that is meant to include a £10 'admin fee' depending on what TOC it is, but most of them do it for nothing.
The inspector is quite correct in this case and a new ticket would have had to be purchased rather than an excess.
See condition 6 here: http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/using-your-card/railcard-terms-conditions/
He should however have been given some kind of receipt for surrendered tickets/railcards. As has already been stated in the thread this would likely be a zero fare ticket as part of a UPFN/TIR. If the inspector hasn't done this then he has not followed proper procedure and this should be the crux of any complaint you may make.
I would also add that this could become a his word against yours case as ontrain CCTV is usually wiped after a short period (Up to 7 days maybe), so be prepared for a battle if you do decide to go down that road.
Should the TOC not politely reply, "Thank you for your letter but due to the Data Protection Act we are unable to discuss the matter with you.". Being his parent gives the TOC no more rights to discuss the matter with you than it does with me.
He is 20! If he wishes to discuss the matter with you and get advice about writing a letter then fine, but it is his responsibility to follow this up not yours.
I'm not looking for a battle but simply want to point out what happened, then the company can decide what do do. I would hope that they would check who was guard on that train and someone simply have a quiet word with them. Only if the guard has a record of doing this sort of thing before would I expect them to take any action.
Not many 20 year olds could be bothered to write a letter and I shall say this and explain that I am writing out of concern that this should not happen again.
Not many 20 year olds could be bothered to write a letter and I shall say this and explain that I am writing out of concern that this should not happen again.
As a young man of 20 years shouldn't it be a useful lesson to sort out one's own problems if he wants to, and leave it if he can't be bothered?
We all have to decide what to do when we are adults. I wanted to make decisions for myself and take action at his age, perhaps it is a generational thing but I used to write a lot of letters when I was in my late teens and early twenties. Or perhaps I was just a bit sad!
We all have to decide what to do when we are adults. I wanted to make decisions for myself and take action at his age, perhaps it is a generational thing but I used to write a lot of letters when I was in my late teens and early twenties. Or perhaps I was just a bit sad!
Quite. I think I sent my first letter to British Rail when I was about eleven.
Some late teens/early 20s are so mollycoddled it's unbelievable.
SETCommuter
Member
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Is the OP ('s son) entitled to a refund of the original ticket ?
Presumably the guard will have handed it in at the end of his shift as some form of confiscated ticket ? This would allow SE to match up the ticket to the railcard to the guard and allow for full examination of the facts.
Presumably the guard will have handed it in at the end of his shift as some form of confiscated ticket ? This would allow SE to match up the ticket to the railcard to the guard and allow for full examination of the facts.
RJ
Established Member
I don't charge anything for doing that.
If you weren't there how can you point out what happened ? If your son can't be bothered to complain then I'd walk away and leave it to him. Maybe he knows more than he has said which is why he won't personally complain ?
If he can't be bothered to write a letter, it's obviously not that important to him so I have to wonder why you're so bothered when you weren't there and don't know the full facts.
I think you just forget about it, just as your son obviously has. Any response you get for writing behalf of someone else isn't likely to be of much use anyway - it will be a vague apology at best. Only your son can get actual specifics.
I think you just forget about it, just as your son obviously has. Any response you get for writing behalf of someone else isn't likely to be of much use anyway - it will be a vague apology at best. Only your son can get actual specifics.
Personally, being of a similar age, until recently I would have left it to avoid the confrontation with those more experienced. And even if I did, it would be under parental advisement. (Such as getting help writing the letter, or proof reading.)
Persuading your son to write a complaint letter and helping him would be a good call, as I didnt know what to write at first.
There should be no charge for the replacement of a faded railcard, as it's not normally the customers fault.
http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/using-your-card/faqs/235/
When I worked in a ticket office, I used to take the initiative to do it where possible.
I guess it could be worth pointing out to him also that complaining could stop it happening to someone else who has no back up when they get pitched off the train miles from home. (Not that I know that is what happened, but you know what I mean).
As part of the persuasion process, yes.
However, when I was around that age I was fiercely independent and rejected all advice that was given to me, regardless of how good it was! Similarly, I didn't react positively when my relatives involved themselves in anything that I considered was my business!
GaryMcEwan
Established Member
Yeah I didn't think there was, but Scotrail still manage to con £10 out of unsuspecting holders of the railcard.
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