First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[swifty]

First seem to be telling late running drivers to miss stops ect. How are they allowed to do this?

They've been doing this for ages, they run as NIS and set down only until they've caught up time or they'll run short and turn mid route. Only really happens in extreme congestion, so that's most nights

 

[freetoview33]

These are running as in service and not stopping

 

[Robertj21a]

First seem to be telling late running drivers to miss stops ect. How are they allowed to do this?

They're not, unless it was part of the registration. It should be reported to VOSA (or whatever they are called today).

Robert

 

[freetoview33]

I have complained at First so am waiting for the reply first! But it has happened on many occasions!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They're not, unless it was part of the registration. It should be reported to VOSA (or whatever they are called today).

Robert

VOSA are responsible for vehicle operations (eg safety, maintenance, etc). If you want to report, it's the traffic commissioners

 

[Private Baxter]

That's interesting. One wonders if WB will have the drivers to operate what they have, let alone new routes. You might wonder if BoS are deliberately timing this to seriously undermine WB? Given the impotence of First in the past, the fare reductions on BoS and on the Street to Wells corridor, and the increase of frequencies on Wellington and Street areas, they are playing hardball.

Add the loss of SCC funding for 670 and 106, and the P&R loss. It's a much tougher life for WB. One wonders what else BoS will come up with

More detail on fares review here - sadly day ticket is going up to £10 though

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bristol_bath/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=19231&conf=0

Wonder what the future holds for WB. It seems to be running itself into the ground.

What happened with the contract with 670?

Back with First in Bath, I wonder if the withdrawal of the S UAK darts will extend to S WYD, R DUS and other odd balls in the city?

 

[freetoview33]

Wonder what the future holds for WB. It seems to be running itself into the ground.

What happened with the contract with 670?

Back with First in Bath, I wonder if the withdrawal of the S UAK darts will extend to S WYD, R DUS and other odd balls in the city?

I hope so but doubt they will move on until next year, when Bath might actually get more new streetlites before they are diverted elsewhere!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wonder what the future holds for WB. It seems to be running itself into the ground.

What happened with the contract with 670?

Back with First in Bath, I wonder if the withdrawal of the S UAK darts will extend to S WYD, R DUS and other odd balls in the city?

Both the 106 and 670 are being run commercially by WB, with the latter now numbered 67

 

[Private Baxter]

Both the 106 and 670 are being run commercially by WB, with the latter now numbered 67

Thanks. I kmow it's being re numbered on Monday, just wondered why SCC decided to cease funding? Too much money perhaps. It otherwise survived the cull in services in 2011.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks. I kmow it's being re numbered on Monday, just wondered why SCC decided to cease funding? Too much money perhaps. It otherwise survived the cull in services in 2011.

There was a mini-review and funding was pulled for the 100, 102 (Sat), 106, 670 (Sat), plus the supported 184s see http://www.somerset.gov.uk/Easysite...ssetID=48765&type=full&servicetype=Attachment

Just more salami slicing of the budget

 

[THarris123]

Thanks for the 319 info. Thought its retention of 3** number might be an indication but no. The 178 - is that a dropping of the route past Paulton to two hourly, as you suggested before? Apart from that, not many route changes. Does look like Faresaver noticeably have the upper hand on 234 now, with 231 and 267 probably 50/50. I guess First have enough battles (with Webberbus and Wessex) not to want to open another front, as well as being happy to keep Faresaver out of Bath. Talking of which, they had an ex Premiere Eclipse on 267 (but on a MAN chassis so is that an Eclipse?)

Where are the B7s coming from (B7RLEs??) and B6s. Hope to god they're not W reg ones from Hengrove; they're rather tired!

Did we hear any more about the York B7RLE that was in Bristol a few weeks ago?

I know there was a fair bit of rumour going around that 178 would drop to 2 hourly past Paulton, but unless the 379 changes as well, it won't. Anyone know whether the 379 is changing as well in September? If it's not, then it will just be a minor change to 178 - probably something to do with the evenings (possibly might take back the Wessex stuff??).

Anyone know what they're doing to 265?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just realised a couple of things...

46603 (based in Wells) is the same age as me. That's a bit sad!

And...

I was told a little while ago that First can only have buses as old as 2001 from 2016. I just worked out from Steve White's website that First only have to replace 1537 buses to keep up with this legislation. As they're planning to get in 425 new buses this year, that goes down to 1112. How are they going to meet this target by 2016?? Magic? Take money from the money tree?

Number of old buses left (registration numbers) - G = 2; K = 4; L = 5, M = 1, N = 18, P = 73; R = 282; S = 229; T = 230; V = 121; W = 362; and X = 210.

I'm surprised to see there isn't that much really old stuff around now. By the end of this year, I suspect they would have got rid of all stuff with G-P Registration numbers.

 

[South Westerly]

I was told a little while ago that First can only have buses as old as 2001 from 2016. I just worked out from Steve White's website that First only have to replace 1537 buses to keep up with this legislation. As they're planning to get in 425 new buses this year, that goes down to 1112. How are they going to meet this target by 2016?? Magic? Take money from the money tree?

Number of old buses left (registration numbers) - G = 2; K = 4; L = 5, M = 1, N = 18, P = 73; R = 282; S = 229; T = 230; V = 121; W = 362; and X = 210.

All bus operators have to comply with the DDA regulations for vehicles used on stage carriage work. That is the end of 2014 for minibuses (eg Varios), the end of 2015 for single deckers and the end of 2016 for double deckers. that's two and a half years.

Funnily enough, just using your own figures, then 1537 / 3 = 513 a year. Given that a high proportion of vehicles that are a little older that 2001 can be modified very easily and cheaply to meet the DDA regulations, then that number falls.

It is also possible that school services could be operated as closed routes, which obviates the need to comply, and this is less of an issue now that BSOG is becoming less and less of an incentive to register school routes as it falls in value, especially if the replacement DDA bus is less fuel efficient as in particular Euro 3 buses are.

So, all in all, it isn't the grim picture for First that you paint. If you look at the Go Ahead and Stagecoach fleets, you will see that they have pretty much the same issue to resolve by those dates too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

All bus operators have to comply with the DDA regulations for vehicles used on stage carriage work. That is the end of 2014 for minibuses (eg Varios), the end of 2015 for single deckers and the end of 2016 for double deckers. that's two and a half years.

Funnily enough, just using your own figures, then 1537 / 3 = 513 a year. Given that a high proportion of vehicles that are a little older that 2001 can be modified very easily and cheaply to meet the DDA regulations, then that number falls.

It is also possible that school services could be operated as closed routes, which obviates the need to comply, and this is less of an issue now that BSOG is becoming less and less of an incentive to register school routes as it falls in value, especially if the replacement DDA bus is less fuel efficient as in particular Euro 3 buses are.

So, all in all, it isn't the grim picture for First that you paint. If you look at the Go Ahead and Stagecoach fleets, you will see that they have pretty much the same issue to resolve by those dates too.

Indeed, and I believe that a number of older deckers (which may or may not include 32001-25 but certainly others of similar vintage) will be refurbed to meet DDA requirements.

Also, it's not a blanket thing regarding the date of manufacture. A number of vehicles manufactured before 2001 are DDA compliant or only require relatively small adjustments (as per the B7TLs mentioned above). The main problem is with the Darts R-X reg as there are issues regarding wheelchair access and wheel arches. Also, you will have a certain number of B10BLEs that have perhaps only a couple of years in them. Do you spend a few thousand on them or just get rid?

As SW says, Stagecoach and (to an extent) Go Ahead are in much the same boat as First in many respects.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know there was a fair bit of rumour going around that 178 would drop to 2 hourly past Paulton, but unless the 379 changes as well, it won't. Anyone know whether the 379 is changing as well in September? If it's not, then it will just be a minor change to 178 - probably something to do with the evenings (possibly might take back the Wessex stuff??).

Anyone know what they're doing to 265?
.

Think Matt was suggesting that it was just some timetable tweaking with the 265.

As for the 178, all they'd have to do is stop the interworking with the 379 for it to go two hourly past Paulton. I travelled on the 178 for the first time in ages about a month ago and it was pretty thin traffic past Paulton until reaching Keynsham, and that was on the peak 0800 ex MSN.

I've seen some very well loaded runs out of Bath towards MSN in an evening so perhaps First might fancy doing something? That said, that's ok on a Friday night but perhaps not so lucrative on a cold Tuesday night in February?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Had a quick wander to Muller Road. Recent arrivals are some ex Hampshire Darts incl an ex HK one as well as a Scania Floline T565BSS, ex Kernow Olym 31461 N972SOS, and 42702 R702BAE missing its engine. Also, 41400 that came over from Cymru for the expanded services (17, 81/82 etc) is there. Don't know if it saw service but it had gained one of the TravelWest 39 ads!

Longer term residents such as 46653, 46252, 46260 and 46262 are also still there along with a range of ex Welsh/Hants Darts and the Irizars

 

[matt_splat]

I heard a interesting suggestion about the 178s last week which could work

every 2 hours between Norton and Keynsham

every hour Bath - Norton then every hour Keynsham to Bristol

so the bus would do

178 Bath - Bristol
178 Bristol - Keynsham
178 Keynsham - Bristol
178 Bristol - Bath

it could just work.

also it would seem wilts and dorset have hidden any trace of the 265 from Wilton into Sailsbury at stops

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I heard a interesting suggestion about the 178s last week which could work

every 2 hours between Norton and Keynsham

every hour Bath - Norton then every hour Keynsham to Bristol

so the bus would do

178 Bath - Bristol
178 Bristol - Keynsham
178 Keynsham - Bristol
178 Bristol - Bath

it could just work.

also it would seem wilts and dorset have hidden any trace of the 265 from Wilton into Sailsbury at stops

That 178 seems messy though it could work. Perhaps it might be better if it was just split with:

178 Bristol to Keynsham (hourly) extending to MSN (2 hourly)
184 Bath to MSN (every 30 mins) extending to Frome (2 hourly)

However, that would mean the 178 being worked from a bulging MH.

 

[freetoview33]

That 178 seems messy though it could work. Perhaps it might be better if it was just split with:

178 Bristol to Keynsham (hourly) extending to MSN (2 hourly)
184 Bath to MSN (every 30 mins) extending to Frome (2 hourly)

However, that would mean the 178 being worked from a bulging MH.

That would work much much better, how it currently is has got rather confusing and harder to change frequencies without having a totally bizarre and complicated timetable!

But there is the LH/MH issue.

 

[Private Baxter]

I did consider something similia recently, passing both the 178 and 379 over to MH, but terminating in MSN and Radstock, whist retainig a quarterly Bath to MSN service (and as you suggest, keep them numbered 184). But that would create a messy timetable, and not entirely practical either. Are there issues with MH doing more work?

I know there was a fair bit of rumour going around that 178 would drop to 2 hourly past Paulton, but unless the 379 changes as well, it won't. Anyone know whether the 379 is changing as well in September? If it's not, then it will just be a minor change to 178 - probably something to do with the evenings (possibly might take back the Wessex stuff??).

Anyone know what they're doing to 265?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just realised a couple of things...

46603 (based in Wells) is the same age as me. That's a bit sad!

And...

I was told a little while ago that First can only have buses as old as 2001 from 2016. I just worked out from Steve White's website that First only have to replace 1537 buses to keep up with this legislation. As they're planning to get in 425 new buses this year, that goes down to 1112. How are they going to meet this target by 2016?? Magic? Take money from the money tree?

Number of old buses left (registration numbers) - G = 2; K = 4; L = 5, M = 1, N = 18, P = 73; R = 282; S = 229; T = 230; V = 121; W = 362; and X = 210.

I'm surprised to see there isn't that much really old stuff around now. By the end of this year, I suspect they would have got rid of all stuff with G-P Registration numbers.

Thanks for working all that out! I didn't realise there are still G reges about!! Where abouts are they? Thought the oldest was K, down in Plymouth. It's funny there are some preserved buses that are younger than that! I know there's an open top D reg dd still knocking about, normally based in Weston, though they get limited usage so could still have some years in it.

Changing the subject, I was doing some vehicle comparisons the other day; I was at Wells bus station, where a T reg AXL dart was waiting to go out on an X75, when one of its class mates came in on a 29. The difference was very noticeable! Those three darts that Wells have are in pretty good condition given their age (a reflection of good maintenace at the Bristol depots where they have worked for most of their lives). The Taunton one however was appauling. Patchy from the new logos put on, understandabe, but was a rushed job and clumsily put together. It doesn't look like it has ever recieved a new coat of paint. And oh how it rattled. I didn't travel on it, but I could hear it on its way in.

Another example I saw at Wells bus station yesterday was 66934 on the 126. Originally based in Wells, this is the only one of the 55 reg buses in Weston still in original livery, but looking at it, it doesn't really need a new coat just yet. This is a very nicely kept bus, in superb condition. But compare it to some of its class mates in Bath, the comparisons are shocking!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Without checking it but suspect that the G regs were the Potteries Olympians that have already gone. The D regs are Citybuses and the one that was Weston isn't there now IIRC, since First pulled off the OT service last July. The other Weston OT 39920 (L650SEU) headed to Weymouth and has reappeared in the new livery. Had 2 trips on it to Portland Bill - highly recommended!

The K regs are Kernow Leyland Olyms (K-LAE) with 34003 at Plymouth that was one of the first Volvo Olympians built.

On the subject of 178, one of the SPDs was running thru Briz with 178 Paulton as the destination today!

Know what you mean about the T-NUA Darts that BoS have. Punishing seats too! However, they're on borrowed time as is much of the Somerset fleet. The S,T and V reg Darts are all due to go as are the Solos (though don't know if they're getting disposed of).

 

[matt_splat]

the 178 idea would still be ran by Bath with evening and early morning trips still into Bristol

I think what they then would do is link the 37s into the 379s

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Don't think linking the 37/379 is a bad idea. Just think having short workings at both ends is fiddly and possibly confusing. Just my view

Been out and about again (!) today as I'm off work. A trip on First's most obscure service for me plus some regular ones. Noticed 42710 on the 9 (nice!)

 

[ValleyLines142]

There's been quite a nasty collision in Bristol this afternoon involving a Gemini. News on First's Twitter page. Can't see what bus is involved or where the incident occurred but the tweets are picking up a location in Kingswood so seems it would involve the 42, 43 or 44. Luckily no one is injured but quite nasty nonetheless!

 

[freetoview33]

Is 37014 still at Hengrove

 

[ValleyLines142]

Is 37014 still at Hengrove

37014 is a Lawrence Hill bus

 

[Private Baxter]

Don't think linking the 37/379 is a bad idea. Just think having short workings at both ends is fiddly and possibly confusing. Just my view

Been out and about again (!) today as I'm off work. A trip on First's most obscure service for me plus some regular ones. Noticed 42710 on the 9 (nice!)

The 37/379 could just work well together. I think the sort of buses used on 37 are more suited to 379 as well.

What do you consider First's most obscure service? I gave X8 a try yesterday, during a spare few hours I had. I think that service needs some serious revision! Why are there so many routes and destinations?! I bet a lot of people find it confusing. Plus I'm not really sure it justifies the X prefix, nothing really express about it. I also think it needs renumbering (again) but I stress I'm not an expert on the subject as I rarely use MH services.

And apparently Bath have just gained an old B10 from Weston. Wonder what the need for that was? Any idea what it has replaced, or is it just to make up for on going vehicle shortages?

 

[swifty]

There's been quite a nasty collision in Bristol this afternoon involving a Gemini. News on First's Twitter page. Can't see what bus is involved or where the incident occurred but the tweets are picking up a location in Kingswood so seems it would involve the 42, 43 or 44. Luckily no one is injured but quite nasty nonetheless!

On the 48 at Emersons Way, quite a narrow bit of road actually with parked cars along that stretch.

A DOUBLE-DECKER bus has crashed into two cars and some railings in Emersons Green.

Read more: http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Bus-cr...tory-21243638-detail/story.html#ixzz34pJT6cAO

 

[ValleyLines142]

On the 48 at Emersons Way, quite a narrow bit of road actually with parked cars along that stretch.

Someone on Twitter said the driver was letting a fellow bus come through, but then apparently his foot got stuck. Nasty incident but as I say luckily no one was hurt.

Which bus was it? Hoping not my lucky Gemini!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

On the 48 at Emersons Way, quite a narrow bit of road actually with parked cars along that stretch.

Could've been worse. Fortunately, nobody injured.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 37/379 could just work well together. I think the sort of buses used on 37 are more suited to 379 as well.

What do you consider First's most obscure service? I gave X8 a try yesterday, during a spare few hours I had. I think that service needs some serious revision! Why are there so many routes and destinations?! I bet a lot of people find it confusing. Plus I'm not really sure it justifies the X prefix, nothing really express about it. I also think it needs renumbering (again) but I stress I'm not an expert on the subject as I rarely use MH services.

And apparently Bath have just gained an old B10 from Weston. Wonder what the need for that was? Any idea what it has replaced, or is it just to make up for on going vehicle shortages?

Not the confusion of the X8. My choice was not so much infrequent as more daily I agree about the X8 numbering/routeing strangeness. I'm not so bothered about an X prefix not being an express; Wilts & Dorset use it for x-country. Just the way First have done it seems perverse!

I too wondered if that B10BLE was to cover shortages as 32045 has now moved to Wales.

 

[Class 33]

What do you consider First's most obscure service? I gave X8 a try yesterday, during a spare few hours I had. I think that service needs some serious revision! Why are there so many routes and destinations?! I bet a lot of people find it confusing. Plus I'm not really sure it justifies the X prefix, nothing really express about it. I also think it needs renumbering (again) but I stress I'm not an expert on the subject as I rarely use MH services.

Having looked at the X8 timetables again, I see that at least they've gave each variation of the X8 a letter on the end. The X8N Bristol-Nailsea, the X8C Bristol-Clevedon(via Nailsea), and the X8P Bristol-Portishead(via Nailsea). So that makes it a little easier to identify the variations of this service. However, do the actual destination displays on the buses show the letter after the X8? I don't recall seeing any recently. I went for a ride on the X5(on a lovely Enviro 400) from Cribbs Causeway-Weston-Super-Mare on Saturday passing through Clevedon and Portishead, and seen a few X8's but they didn't have X8C or X8P on the bus destination display. So this still might cause some confusion for passengers boarding between Bristol and Nailsea.

Not really much of a regular user of buses between Clevedon, Portishead, and Bristol. But I too think the numbering of these services needs to be revised.

X8 certainly not an express service I know! I mentioned some time ago about how most of the X prefix services now are not really express services, and that these services shouldn't really have an X prefix to them. But others would disagree. The only true express service now is the X7 Bristol-Newport.

First country services have(and in the process of) of renumbering the old 300 series services(i.e. 352, 358, etc) to city style two digit service numbers. In my opinion the X8 which isn't really an express service, but a slow all-stops service to Nailsea, Portishead and Clevdeon, I think the service needs splitting into two different services and renumbered in the 60 series range(of which there are currently these numbers spare, along with numbers 91-99), i.e. the 61 to Portishead, and the 62 to Clevedon.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Having looked at the X8 timetables again, I see that at least they've gave each variation of the X8 a letter on the end. The X8N Bristol-Nailsea, the X8C Bristol-Clevedon(via Nailsea), and the X8P Bristol-Portishead(via Nailsea). So that makes it a little easier to identify the variations of this service. However, do the actual destination displays on the buses show the letter after the X8? I don't recall seeing any recently. I went for a ride on the X5(on a lovely Enviro 400) from Cribbs Causeway-Weston-Super-Mare on Saturday passing through Clevedon and Portishead, and seen a few X8's but they didn't have X8C or X8P on the bus destination display. So this still might cause some confusion for passengers boarding between Bristol and Nailsea.

Not really much of a regular user of buses between Clevedon, Portishead, and Bristol. But I too think the numbering of these services needs to be revised.

X8 certainly not an express service I know! I mentioned some time ago about how most of the X prefix services now are not really express services, and that these services shouldn't really have an X prefix to them. But others would disagree. The only true express service now is the X7 Bristol-Newport.

First country services have(and in the process of) of renumbering the old 300 series services(i.e. 352, 358, etc) to city style two digit service numbers. In my opinion the X8 which isn't really an express service, but a slow all-stops service to Nailsea, Portishead and Clevdeon, I think the service needs splitting into two different services and renumbered in the 60 series range(of which there are currently these numbers spare, along with numbers 91-99), i.e. the 61 to Portishead, and the 62 to Clevedon.

You are absolutely spot on.

The various X8 variations aren't shown on destinations, the different variations are bizarre enough but not corresponding to the timetable, and the route is very slow. I was thinking the same thing - why didn't they just lop off the 3 prefix?

You do wonder if Thornbury might be X rated, if not 77/78?

 

[ValleyLines142]

No the X8 doesn't have any letter after it.

I don't really see the difference between the X8/X9/X10 to be honest! I find it confusing and don't really know the route as such!

I need to have a journey on the X1, with those beautiful pink and blue Enviro 400s. Now they are real buses!!