SEML - Train stopped short of platform 12/06/2014

[2R84]

Just left 2W52 which was taken out of service at Sevenoaks due to the 12 car train being stopped at the 8 car stop and the doors released - leaving 3 cars overhanging the platform.

The driver kept us informed throughout, pulled up to the 12 car stop and rereleased the doors before contacting the signaller.

 

[LowLevel]

Perhaps the 'friends of DOO' from the Northern thread would like to visit - I believe this is a train with a guard where the driver releases the doors

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Perhaps the 'friends of DOO' from the Northern thread would like to visit - I believe this is a train with a guard where the driver releases the doors

I'm sure they will just say that the guard can make the same mistake. Even though before a guard can release the doors he has to make sure the train sis platformed 1st. Its rare for it to happen with a Guard in control.

 

[Moonshot]

I'm sure they will just say that the guard can make the same mistake. Even though before a guard can release the doors he has to make sure the train sis platformed 1st. Its rare for it to happen with a Guard in control.

But it has happened in the past....the present ....and will do in the future.

Guards make mistakes....drivers makes mistakes.....signallers make mistakes......passengers make mistakes.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But it has happened in the past....the present ....and will do in the future.

Guards make mistakes....drivers makes mistakes.....signallers make mistakes......passengers make mistakes.

Moonshot are you a troll or what? Never seen anyone who says the amount of garbage against its own occupation! (I am very much doubting what you say about your employment. It just does not make sense)

 

[dysonsphere]

Just left 2W52 which was taken out of service at Sevenoaks due to the 12 car train being stopped at the 8 car stop and the doors released - leaving 3 cars overhanging the platform.

The driver kept us informed throughout, pulled up to the 12 car stop and rereleased the doors before contacting the signaller.

Damm feel sorry for the driver could happen to anyone lets hope its not a job risking problem.

 

[Moonshot]

Moonshot are you a troll or what? Never seen anyone who says the amount of garbage against its own occupation! (I am very much doubting what you say about your employment. It just does not make sense)

Not quite sure what you are getting at... i think its a great job.

 

[Goldfish62]

Moonshot are you a troll or what? Never seen anyone who says the amount of garbage against its own occupation! (I am very much doubting what you say about your employment. It just does not make sense)

Actually "Moonshot" has a point - a couple of years ago during leaf-fall I witnessed a train overshoot the platform at Martins Heron by over a carriage length and the guard still released the doors even though he looked both ways along the train.

In this case, passengers got on and off and the train departed as if nothing had happened...

 

[2R84]

Damm feel sorry for the driver could happen to anyone lets hope its not a job risking problem.

So do I, he sounded like a pleasant chap on the PA, kept calm and even helped us with onwards connections when he was told the train would not be proceeding.

Train was running with a guard, although I believe at Sevenoaks is dispatched with DOO monitors and platform staff?

 

[jnjkerbin]

Only half right, just platform staff, but after Sevenoaks, the guard begins to play a part in train dispatch.

 

[455driver]

Damm feel sorry for the driver could happen to anyone lets hope its not a job risking problem.

It can be if the drivers record is less than clean.

Incidents like this are treated very seriously.

 

[Bushy]

Taking it out of service didn't help the situation created by signal problems between London Bridge and Cannon Street. As tweeted by JT

Announcer at Charing Cross doing a surprisingly good job of keeping everyone informed of train status.

However we weren't told the train was removed from service due to an error by the driver.

Regards

Bushy

 

[user15681]

Taking it out of service didn't help the situation created by signal problems between London Bridge and Cannon Street. As tweeted by JT However we weren't told the train was removed from service due to an error by the driver.

Regards

Bushy

No other option unfortunately. Train was taken to Orpington and then return service to Ramsgate was started from there. On a normal day, information would likely be circulated, but it was pretty hectic this evening with Cannon Street, Denmark Hill and Herne Hill problems.

 

[redbutton]

Taking it out of service didn't help the situation created by signal problems between London Bridge and Cannon Street. As tweeted by JT However we weren't told the train was removed from service due to an error by the driver.

Regards

Bushy

They wouldn't say it directly. It would be described as 'operational incident' or 'unavailability of staff' (since there presumably wasn't a relief driver available to replace the one taken off for drug and alcohol tests).

 

[47802]

But it has happened in the past....the present ....and will do in the future.

Guards make mistakes....drivers makes mistakes.....signallers make mistakes......passengers make mistakes.

Indeed clearly that HST I once saw arrive at Doncaster and the doors being released despite it not being fully in the platform due to being held at the mid platform signal couldn't have happened then because it was guard worked!

The other day I herd about a driver who managed to set off without his guard maybe he was a bit too eager to get DOO.

 

[2R84]

They wouldn't say it directly. It would be described as 'operational incident' or 'unavailability of staff' (since there presumably wasn't a relief driver available to replace the one taken off for drug and alcohol tests).

'An issue with the train crew'

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W01831/2014/06/12/advanced

 

[muz379]

Actually "Moonshot" has a point - a couple of years ago during leaf-fall I witnessed a train overshoot the platform at Martins Heron by over a carriage length and the guard still released the doors even though he looked both ways along the train.

In this case, passengers got on and off and the train departed as if nothing had happened...

In that instance the driver should give the guard 2-2 on the buzzer to tell them not to open doors the guards main purpose is checking the train is on at their end , ofc they do check along the train to make sure the platform is safe but with longer sets sometimes it is deceptive if the train is on or not .

But it has happened in the past....the present ....and will do in the future.

Guards make mistakes....drivers makes mistakes.....signallers make mistakes......passengers make mistakes.

It happens very rarely with a guard in control of releasing doors though and when it does its not in my eyes a mistake its a complete disregard for carrying out your duties correctly and there is no defense for the guard , they have clearly and obviously grossly neglected their duties .

whereas there are more reasons a driver of a DOO train stopping at the 8 car stop with a 12 car unit would release their doors mistakenly , and it usually is something more nuanced than just being negligent when carrying out their duties .

 

[BestWestern]

It happens very rarely with a guard in control of releasing doors though and when it does its not in my eyes a mistake its a complete disregard for carrying out your duties correctly and there is no defense for the guard , they have clearly and obviously grossly neglected their duties .

whereas there more reason a driver of a DOO train stopping at the 8 car stop with a 12 car unit would release their doors , and it usually is something more nuanced than just being negligent when carrying out their duties .

Operational incidents are very rarely due to a 'gross neglect of duties'. There are many underlying causes; distraction, fatigue, stress, and in the case of a Guard releasing non-platformed doors or doors on a train not correctly platformed there are circumstances where it may simply not have been possible to tell that, perhaps, half a coach was off. It could be argued in such cased that perhaps the Guard made poor judgement, but grossly negelcting duties is something very different.

Damm feel sorry for the driver could happen to anyone lets hope its not a job risking problem.

So do I, he sounded like a pleasant chap on the PA, kept calm and even helped us with onwards connections when he was told the train would not be proceeding.

Train was running with a guard, although I believe at Sevenoaks is dispatched with DOO monitors and platform staff?

If the train had a Guard, would it not have been said Guard making announcements and detailing onward connections?!

 

[muz379]

I acknowledge thinking about it that if you are opening up from the middle of the unit then distraction on the platform or incorrect perception and a mistaken presumption that the whole train is platformed could be a factor that would not be neglectful but a mistake that could be made .

But I disagree that when releasing the doors from the rear of the train releasing on the wrong side or short is anything other than neglecting your duties . At that one moment in time your sole task is to establish that the platform is there from a local open door .At most places I will do this by putting at least one foot on it as I lean out to check the train is on at both ends anyway . The only way I can see a guard giving a wrong side or stopped short door release from the rear of a train is if they have not looked out of their open local door


If you are that fatigued or unwell or distracted that you cannot establish that one simple fact then you are neglecting your safety duties by allowing yourself to carry on and you are certainly neglectful in pressing the door open buttons .which is reflected by how seriously it is taken when a guard performs a wrong side door release or a stop short door release

 

[Merseysider]

Just a question; if the train had stopped short of the 12 car stop, and the driver realised his error before the doors were released, would he have been able to simply roll it forward to the 12 car stop or would this still be a serious incident?

 

[Mike395]

Just a question; if the train had stopped short of the 12 car stop, and the driver realised his error before the doors were released, would he have been able to simply it roll forward to the 12 car stop or would this still be a serious incident?

Can't comment on the rulebook in this case, but I would have thought, so long as there wasn't undue delay (and, like you say, no door release occurred), the driver could just proceed to the correct stop board and nothing further would come of it.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Just a question; if the train had stopped short of the 12 car stop, and the driver realised his error before the doors were released, would he have been able to simply it roll forward to the 12 car stop or would this still be a serious incident?

If the doors weren't released then it wouldn't be a serious incident, unless someone who wanted to make a name for themselves wanted to progress it further.....

 

[infobleep]

What sort of things could have gone wrong if the train had continued, once it was moved on to the correct part of the platform of course?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[ComUtoR]

What sort of things could have gone wrong if the train had continued, once it was moved on to the correct part of the platform of course?

Anything could of happened. The Driver has had an incident and the root cause of that needs to be addressed before he/she continues.

Maybe they were drunk ? Highly unlikely. Hungover ? Again, unlikely but after a safety incident a TOC can medscreen a Driver/Guard 'just in case'.

Medscreens also pick up on... medical issues. Maybe the Driver was on medication and it was affecting their concentration level. All medications must be declared, and authorised, but the Driver may have taken something as simple as a cough sweet and hadn't realised it was on the restricted list or was making them dizzy.

Taking the Driver off may be to medscreen and that puts the passenger safety first. That's a good thing.

The Driver may have a history of incidents and the TOC made the decision that the risk to passenger safety was to great.

The TOC decision is made for safety

Other factors may have caused the incident. The Driver may of been fatigued. The Driver may have personal issues and hadn't realised they were in fact affecting him/her so decided that they were unable to continue.

The Driver may of been shaken up about having an incident and made the professional decision to not continue in service. Also keeping the passengers safe. A Driver who has an incident has the potential to have a second incident further down the track. It affects your concentration level and causes a distraction. Why take the risk ? If your distracted or discover your concentration level is reduced for any reason. Stop driving. Maybe the Driver just wanted a break.

Its the same advice when driving your car. Take breaks, pull over if tired, stop your journey. Yeah its not a car but the advice is sound and is also given to Drivers.

Drivers must sign/declare a 'Statement of readiness' each time they book on and it covers Tiredness, Medication, Alcohol, Routes, Traction, and other factors. If the Driver or even the signaller feels this may be compromised then the train is taken out of service.

Safety, Safety, Safety.

 

[lincolnshire]

One thing that would happen is train delay charges and Network Rail know how to sting the train operateing companies if its there fault, time to get some of the money back off the train operating companies instead of them paying out for train delays.

All down to money these days even for a small problem.

 

[mrknowwun]

Anything could of happened. The Driver has had an incident and the root cause of that needs to be addressed before he/she continues.

Maybe they were drunk ? Highly unlikely. Hungover ? Again, unlikely but after a safety incident a TOC can medscreen a Driver/Guard 'just in case'.


Taking the Driver off may be to medscreen and that puts the passenger safety first. That's a good thing.

Clearly the important thing that goes in the crews favour is that they did the right thing after the event. No attempt to ignore it or cover it up, passengers informed, incident reported. As long as the crew are fully co-operative and truthful, D&D free, and have good records it will marked up as an incident, not career threatening. The risk management system should kick in and monitoring should be put in place for the crew.

 

[LowLevel]

Indeed clearly that HST I once saw arrive at Doncaster and the doors being released despite it not being fully in the platform due to being held at the mid platform signal couldn't have happened then because it was guard worked!

The other day I herd about a driver who managed to set off without his guard maybe he was a bit too eager to get DOO.

It's rather different on a HST because you can't check from a local door like you can on everything else. You can only hang out of the window which with a 9 car set doesn't give a great view. Should still have an awareness of being in the wrong place though. On my trains at all the stations I regularly stop at I know when I'm in the platform with the usual formation. That being the case I release all the doors without the local door. If I have an unusual formation or it's pushing the max the platform can accommodate I check via the local door first. Only once have I opened the local door to find a coach hanging off the back. As it was a long train at a little used station with no one getting off, and only 2 getting on, I just used the local door and carried on but we could have drawn up if necessary which wouldn't be an incident unless it caused delay. I just told the driver on the cab that he was short so he didn't make the same mistake in future. If it had been DOO he'd have just released the lot.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Clearly the important thing that goes in the crews favour is that they did the right thing after the event. No attempt to ignore it or cover it up, passengers informed, incident reported. As long as the crew are fully co-operative and truthful, D&D free, and have good records it will marked up as an incident, not career threatening. The risk management system should kick in and monitoring should be put in place for the crew.

Golden rule that is drummed into us from day 1 is "if you f**k up be honest and DON'T lie" If you try and cover it up you are digging yourself into a major hole. If you hold your hands up you will get interviewed, it will be investigated and more than likely less severe action is taken. I have sat in the odd interview as witness and had to tell the person being interviewed when the Manager is out of the room to just be honest as he/she was digging themselves into a hole.

 

[Gemz91]

Just left 2W52 which was taken out of service at Sevenoaks due to the 12 car train being stopped at the 8 car stop and the doors released - leaving 3 cars overhanging the platform.

The driver kept us informed throughout, pulled up to the 12 car stop and rereleased the doors before contacting the signaller.

Don't think theres a need to advertise what train was involved, alright say there was an incident and describe what happened, but posting the train headcode and lcation is too much.

 

[northwichcat]

It's happened on the Mid-Cheshire line (which has a guard) before at least twice where the guard has thought the rear unit was locked out-of-use but it wasn't and the guard has missed someone boarding the rear unit. Then at subsequent stations the driver has stopped with rear train has been partly off the end of the platform. Both occasions it's been at Northwich in the Manchester direction where the passenger has boarded the rear train without the guard noticing. That's probably one of the problems with insisting the guard has to close the door from the back - it there's multiple units and one locked out-of-use he/she can miss things like that with guards not having eyes in the back of their heads.