(Hypothetical) Passing an opportunity to pay on Oyster

[Tibbs]

I get the train into Euston every day, and this morning pulled into Platform 1, which has a grand total of 1 Oyster Reader.

The queue for the reader was understandably huge, given that a conservative 75% of travellers use Oyster on the train. Now I never bother to touch out, since it doesn't cost anything not to, but I'd imagine a lot of other people do.

I was wondering, if I were on PAYG and I saw the queue, whether going past the queue (and the reader) to use the Oyster Reader on another platform would constitute a RoRA offence?

 

[yorkie]

PAYG users will already have been charged the maximum fare, and touching out will refund them the difference, so they only pay the appropriate fare.

 

[Tibbs]

Interesting, so there's no penalty for not touching out, aside from the maximum fare?

 

[Tetchytyke]

IIRC you can be issued with a Penalty Fare if you do not touch out, but this tends to be more where someone "forgets" to touch out because they have a Travelcard and are at a station outside of their zones. By doing so they haven't paid.

Passengers only using PAYG have already paid for their journey when they touched in, because of the way the system applies a maximum fare and then refunds them. So I don't see how a RoRA or Byelaws prosecution could possibly work, so long as the card was not in negative balance after touch in.

I'm quite happy to be corrected though...

 

[Urban Gateline]

Interesting, so there's no penalty for not touching out, aside from the maximum fare?

If RPI's were doing manual checks then there would be penalties for people using Oyster (PAYG or season not covering all zones travelled through) who hadn't touched in, in the first place and attempt to leave without paying. Anyone who has touched in has a valid Journey on their Oyster card anyway so it is in their interest to touch out if using PAYG as Yorkie says to be charged the correct fare!

 

[Tom B]

I was unable to touch in recently when Finsbury Park was overcrowded due to staff shortages caused by a strike. Due to the number of passengers forced into a small tunnel I couldn't get across to reach the reader. It was refunded without question, presumably because it was LU's fault that the station was overcrowded.

 

[Tibbs]

If RPI's were doing manual checks then there would be penalties for people using Oyster (PAYG or season not covering all zones travelled through) who hadn't touched in, in the first place and attempt to leave without paying. Anyone who has touched in has a valid Journey on their Oyster card anyway so it is in their interest to touch out if using PAYG as Yorkie says to be charged the correct fare!

Sorry, I should have been more specific - if you've touched In but not Out on PAYG there's no penalty other than the maximom fare?

I suppose it works like the oyster season - you must touch In & Out but there's no penalty for not doing so (just for Out in the case of PAYG) as you've already paid.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, I should have been more specific - if you've touched In but not Out on PAYG there's no penalty other than the maximom fare?

Yes, but if someone was seen as acting in a way that could be seen as suspicious then staff may wish to investigate.

For example I went to a station where someone who looked like a security guard was watching for people not touching in and who suddenly rudely demanded (almost shouting!) that I touch in, he wasn't expecting to be shown a Travelcard.

There can be an expectation by a very small number of staff that everyone uses Oyster PAYG and everyone should be seen to be touching in/out and anyone not doing so is assumed to be dodging unless they can prove otherwise!

So walking past a reader could trigger a manual check, if staff are watching (which I have no objection to, providing they don't bark!). Staff may also be keen for you to resolve the journey for your own sake, also to ensure that company is allocated the correct revenue, and perhaps to keep calls to the helpdesk down!

 

[Tibbs]

<snip>

So walking past a reader could trigger a manual check, if staff are watching (which I have no objection to, providing they don't bark!). Staff may also be keen for you to resolve the journey for your own sake, also to ensure that company is allocated the correct revenue, and perhaps to keep calls to the helpdesk down!

That's in interesting thought - I wonder what the difference in allocation is between a Bushey - ???? reading and a Bushey - Euston is?

Or are tickets pre-allocated as soon as you buy them?

 

[EM2]

Yes, but if someone was seen as acting in a way that could be seen as suspicious then staff may wish to investigate.

For example I went to a station where someone who looked like a security guard was watching for people not touching in and who suddenly rudely demanded (almost shouting!) that I touch in, he wasn't expecting to be shown a Travelcard.

There can be an expectation by a very small number of staff that everyone uses Oyster PAYG and everyone should be seen to be touching in/out and anyone not doing so is assumed to be dodging unless they can prove otherwise!

So walking past a reader could trigger a manual check, if staff are watching (which I have no objection to, providing they don't bark!). Staff may also be keen for you to resolve the journey for your own sake, also to ensure that company is allocated the correct revenue, and perhaps to keep calls to the helpdesk down!

Reminiscent of the 'discussion' I had with a member of staff at Blackhorse Road, who lambasted me for not touching on the pink validator, as I entered from the Overground platforms.
When I mentioned that

1. I had a season ticket,
2. I was travelling into Zone 1,
3. It's not mandatory even on PAYG,

he carried on that 'everyone touches on it', to which I replied 'but they don't have to if they don't want to'.
He then insisted on calling over another member of staff, who confirmed that I was correct, and use of the validator is not compulsory, but advisable.

 

[MikeWh]

That's in interesting thought - I wonder what the difference in allocation is between a Bushey - ???? reading and a Bushey - Euston is?

Or are tickets pre-allocated as soon as you buy them?

Bushey to Euston would almost certainly all go to LO whereas Bushey to ???? might be split with a pot for travelcard style allocation. You only validate the card for travel on touch in, it has no notion of where you might be going.

 

[Tibbs]

Bushey to Euston would almost certainly all go to LO whereas Bushey to ???? might be split with a pot for travelcard style allocation. You only validate the card for travel on touch in, it has no notion of where you might be going.

Oh, so it is differently allocated then. Interesting.

However, for Bushey to Euston, most must go to LM - the passenger numbers from Bushey in the Morning Peak must be 99% Platform 6 for the fast trains to Euston and 1% all other platforms.

Still doesn't explain why Platforms 4 & 5 get 8 speakers and I see on average one person waiting on there a week, and 2 speakers on Platform 6 which has almost everyone, but that's a separate whinge...

 

[MikeWh]

Oh, so it is differently allocated then. Interesting.

However, for Bushey to Euston, most must go to LM - the passenger numbers from Bushey in the Morning Peak must be 99% Platform 6 for the fast trains to Euston and 1% all other platforms.

Ooops, forgot LM serve there too. Yes, LO and LM will share revenue on complete journeys. My understanding is that incomplete journeys where the touch suggests a certain TOC will generate some revenue for that TOC, but I may be wrong. I would expect the majority to be shared out in a similar way to the breakdown of a 1 day travelcard. There's certainly no way that one (or two in this case) TOC will get everything from an incomplete journey.