impartial selling of tickets

[NLC1072]

Basically I've had a row with a more senior member of staff who have told me not to sell tickets from other stations... So now I'm not selling them its creating a massive headache!!! What to do in such a situation? I know full well the exact and precise rules regarding what i should be dong yet am not allowed to do so. Anybody else found themselves stuck in this particular situation?

 

[transportphoto]

I'm not in the industry, however wouldn't this be a matter to talk to your Union about, more so than a public forum? Especially as you've had what you describe as a 'row' with management. This does of course relies on you being a member of a Trade Union.

Edit to add: I must empathise that this is my gut reaction to reading your posting, as I say I have no experience of working for any TOCs and as such am not familiar with processes such as this. I accept I may be wrong, which is why I pose the matter as a question rather than a statement.

TP

 

[Haywain]

No, and on the face of it your "more senior member of staff " is wrong but it does create a difficult position. It may be appropriate to raise this with your manager or, if your manager is the person referred to, your TOC's pricing manager. That should result in the correct processes being re-issued to resolve the matter. It may be that the other member of staff is concerned that you are encouraging more business that may upset their easy life. On the other hand, there is always a chance that they are right and you are wrong.

 

[furlong]

If you think it may be a breach of the TSA you should try to protect your own position by making sure your report of the problem (and response) is documented so you don't later end up taking the blame if a customer were to report a potential franchise breach leading to an investigation.

E.g. You might quite reasonably send them a dispassionate email summarising the conclusion of a verbal discussion (inviting them to correct it if need be).

(And don't let slip on here which station you work at, or you might find some forum member takes it upon themselves to carry out a test purchase.)

 

[Clip]

Basically I've had a row with a more senior member of staff who have told me not to sell tickets from other stations... So now I'm not selling them its creating a massive headache!!! What to do in such a situation? I know full well the exact and precise rules regarding what i should be dong yet am not allowed to do so. Anybody else found themselves stuck in this particular situation?

Was this person your line manager or a supervisor or who?

 

[LexyBoy]

If you think it may be a breach of the TSA you should try to protect your own position by making sure your report of the problem (and response) is documented so you don't later end up taking the blame if a customer were to report a potential franchise breach leading to an investigation.

Indeed - the first step would be to raise it with your manager (possibly the person in question?). If they do not alter the instruction, and you are sure the instruction breaches the TSA or other regulation, then I would bring it to the attention of someone higher in the organisation.

Of course it can be hard to do these things diplomatically; it may be that the person you refer to had their instructions from higher up anyway.

 

[NLC1072]

If you think it may be a breach of the TSA you should try to protect your own position by making sure your report of the problem (and response) is documented so you don't later end up taking the blame if a customer were to report a potential franchise breach leading to an investigation.

E.g. You might quite reasonably send them a dispassionate email summarising the conclusion of a verbal discussion (inviting them to correct it if need be).

(And don't let slip on here which station you work at, or you might find some forum member takes it upon themselves to carry out a test purchase.)

Do you know where I can get a copy of the rules? And thanks for the heads up! I'd never give away where I work online or even who I am.

 

[LexyBoy]

You'll most likely want Chapter 6, Part III of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (page 147 onwards in the link).

There are various exceptions and caveats so check whether these apply to your situation.

 

[Haywain]

You'll most likely want Chapter 6, Part III of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (page 147 onwards in the link).

There are various exceptions and caveats so check whether these apply to your situation.

And good luck with finding the answer you want in there (I've got a copy in front of me, and I don't think you will). However, not finding the answer doesn't mean you are wrong - it just means you can't locate it amongst 40 pages of legalese!

 

[NLC1072]

And good luck with finding the answer you want in there (I've got a copy in front of me, and I don't think you will). However, not finding the answer doesn't mean you are wrong - it just means you can't locate it amongst 40 pages of legalese!

It was quite difficult to locate but I believe I have, shame its not in bog standard English though. Thanks for the link and I've got fun times ahead!

 

[OwlMan]

You want the ATOC retail sales guide- a copy is attached

 

[lyndhurst25]

What "excuse" for not selling the tickets has your boss suggested you tell any passenger who asks for one?

 

[NLC1072]

What "excuse" for not selling the tickets has your boss suggested you tell any passenger who asks for one?

They can get off there and buy it there, this is "a" station and we only sell "a" station tickets.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Looking at the TSA, the "bare minimum" requirements appear to be tickets originating at the station in question, 16-25 and Senior Railcards and reservations for journeys originating at the station in question.

Anything beyond that appears to be at the retailer's discretion, though generally has to be sold in an impartial manner.

 

[talltim]

Do you work at an Impartial or Dedicated ticket counter?

 

[Haywain]

That was also my interpretation, but the ATOC Retail Standards Guide is a bit clearer.

 

[talltim]

This in the ATOC document linked above says

When a TOC chooses to restrict sales to certain Rail Products only at one or more Sales Positions, each must be clearly signed so that customers can easily see which Rail Products are sold there (TSA clause 6-30(1)(c))

Is your sales position signed to say that only tickets from your station will be sold there?

 

[NLC1072]

This in the ATOC document linked above says

Is your sales position signed to say that only tickets from your station will be sold there?

We have to sell all because we don't have enough windows, can't make the 51% that atoc require to be impartial to have a dedicated window.

Its a basic bog standard ticket office, supposed to be selling impartially.

 

[Flying Snail]

They can get off there and buy it there, this is "a" station and we only sell "a" station tickets.

I would have hoped that the LU ticket office closures would be a wake-up call for those involved in ticket offices in TOCs.

On line and TVM sales can handle most things these days. As far as I can see one of the few ways manned offices can remain relevant is to specialise in the more complex aspects of ticketing and focus on providing good customer service not refusing to do all but the basic and shooing away any customer daring to want some assistance with more involved journeys.

I understand why you can't say too much, I am guessing it is either some upstart manager who doesn't have a clue or an old hand who can't be bothered and wants everyone else to do the same so he doesn't stand out.
Whatever the situation be careful what you do as it is one thing to get a senior manager to re-educate this person but presumably you will have to work with them afterwards. The sort that would pressure you into doing your job badly is likely to be the sort that would hold a grudge and try to get back at you for reporting them. However you proceed make sure you cover your own arse, a voice recorder is a good insurance policy against verbal orders being denied down the line.

 

[NLC1072]

I understand why you can't say too much, I am guessing it is either some upstart manager who doesn't have a clue or an old hand who can't be bothered and wants everyone else to do the same so he doesn't stand out.
Whatever the situation be careful what you do as it is one thing to get a senior manager to re-educate this person but presumably you will have to work with them afterwards. The sort that would pressure you into doing your job badly is likely to be the sort that would hold a grudge and try to get back at you for reporting them.

Spot on.

 

[yorkie]

Another possibility is someone asking for such tickets, complaining, and then someone at head office can then tell them!

 

[table38]

Does he cover for your rest days/breaks? You could get a friend to try to buy a forbidden ticket when you are not working, then complain

 

[NLC1072]

Does he cover for your rest days/breaks? You could get a friend to try to buy a forbidden ticket when you are not working, then complain

Lol do not tempt me!!!

 

[Flying Snail]

Does he cover for your rest days/breaks? You could get a friend to try to buy a forbidden ticket when you are not working, then complain

Honestly if you feel that you cannot deal with this directly yourself without creating future conflict for yourself that suggestion is exactly how I would deal with it.

A passenger, even if they happen to be known to you, has every right to request a ticket from that individual and complain if they gets fobbed off.

 

[table38]

Maybe one of the ticket-savvy mods on here would be prepared to act as a nark err.. "mystery shopper"

 

[Merseysider]

You'll want Chapter 6, Part III, section 6-14 (1)(a). Page 148.

Subject to sub-Clause (2) and Clauses 6-17 to 6-19 below, the Lead Retailer at each Regulated Station must offer for Sale at that Station during its opening hours:-
(a) all Permanent Fares which are Basic Products and which relate to the Flows that are listed in those Fares Manuals in existence at the date of this Agreement that are specified in Schedule 17 against the name of that Station (and any new Flows listed in any Fares Manuals that replace them, to the extent that they cover the same or substantially the same geographical areas)

Provided the ticket you're being told not to sell is a basic single/return/season chances are it must be offered for sale. Subclause 2 can be explained if the terms APTIS and SPORTIS are unclear to anyone. Clauses 6-17 through 19 allow for restrictions on offering tickets for sale only if the procedure detailed is followed.

The position you find yourself in does look rather unfortunate, so best of luck in resolving it successfully.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A scenario.

Someone asks for a ticket from another station. You decline to sell it. That person complains.

Will the senior person you had a row with and who told you not to sell that ticket stand four square with you and back you up, taking the blame on themsleves and saving your skin?

mmmm, thought not.

You only have one backside, it's your job to cover it.

One question is, what would the 'penalty' be to you, as the individual found to have done wrong? Words of advice from management or dismissal? The answer to that depends on whether it's worth creating an issue that may have implications, such as future bad relations with your colleagues / managers / employer.

Having an audit trail of emails on the issue helps you protect yourself. Relying on recollections of verbal only instructions isn't much use for any future 'defence'.

1) as advised up thread, write it all down, dispassionately, send it up the management chain.
2) ask an innocent question (in writing), such as "I'm not sure whether I should sell these tickets or not, could somone please advise in writing?"

If you are in a union, speak to them first. If you're not in a union, join tomorrow then speak to them. Union reps I've met tend to love this sort of thing.

 

[furlong]

Looking at the TSA, the "bare minimum" requirements appear to be tickets originating at the station in question.

Rather more than that: I think when it was written it would have amounted to fares found in the printed fares manuals the ticket office would have been expected to have immediately to hand, but with no obligation to consult local fares manuals covering a different part of the country.

In other words, no obligation to sell fares that the ticket office might not have readily available. With modern ticket issuing systems, this part of the TSA ought probably to be simplified now, I'd have thought.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Looking at the TSA, the "bare minimum" requirements appear to be tickets originating at the station in question.

Rather more than that: I think when it was written it would have amounted to fares found in the printed fares manuals the ticket office would have been expected to have immediately to hand, but with no obligation to consult local fares manuals covering a different part of the country.

Mea culpa. The excessive verbiage caused my eyes to glaze over and miss the bit about the NFMs.

As you say, with a modern Desktop TIS there's really no excuse not to sell any ticket that you can get a price for unless it requires special stock or a local program that you don't have.

So I wouldn't expect Leeds, for example, to be able to issue a Ryde Esplanade - Ryde St John's Road Annual on Gold Card stock, or an office using Avantix to be able to issue reservations or season tickets valid for more than a week.

 

[dave87016]

I sometimes go to Bolton ticket office and ask for a return from Bromley Cross as that's where I will be finishing my journey either from Manchester or Southport I have never encountered any problems