DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements

[Moonshot]

Charity No.... responsibility to its Passengers and Staff most certainly yes. Most Passengers when told the responsibilities of a guard compared to a minimum wage off the street employee with poor training would be shocked (especially up here) when Guards are very visible on most services would be furious especially with given the fact that the only people who would benefit are shareholders.

Heck just read the conversations on here about G4s and the ilk and you want them to be in charge of your safety lol

How would shareholders benefit?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

How would shareholders benefit?

just a little thing called PROFIT

That is all TOC's really care about

Quite simple really

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I witnessed the other day, a coupled 333 at Shipley arrive and depart with no guard at the back of the train nor staff on the platform to assist the driver with despatch. What with Platform 2 being curved, I can hardly imagine this was entirely safe.

That'd be interesting, can't picture there being too much demand for direct Chester - Sheffield though?

Ah, of course. One simply quits their job and finds a new one within the hour.

The Irony Guards like myself and Moonshot are fighting for our careers and Moonshot says something like that lol

 

[Moonshot]

just a little thing called PROFIT

That is all TOC's really care about

Quite simple really

And what is the problem with making a profit?

 

[ivanhoe]

May I rejoin this debate to ask on a comparative basis, what was the position taken by the trades unions when another form of public transport, buses, became one-man operated, with the driver being given fare collection duties in addition to his driving duty ?

I remember in Liverpool there was a 3 month strike over one man operation. (1968).It was a bitter strike but it brought extra revenue for the Central to Gateacre line. I also remember Crosville who were not allowed to pick up inside the city boundary. I also remember one driver who refused to give in and he spent the rest of his working life shunting buses in Speke garage. (Now Arriva). You may wonder how we got about. We just did either by cycling and a mixture of walking/trains. The strike petered out and eventually the Leyland Atlantean was the dominant bus. Conductors were gone by the advent of the PTE'S although Crosville and Ribble carried on with conductors for a few more years. Whether people would put up with such an inconvenience now,I don't know!

 

[Moonshot]

I witnessed the other day, a 333 at Shipley arrive and depart with no guard at the back of the train nor staff on the platform to assist the driver with despatch. What with Platform 2 being curved, I can hardly imagine this was entirely safe.

That'd be interesting, can't picture there being too much demand for direct Chester - Sheffield though?

Ah, of course. One simply quits their job and finds a new one within the hour.

i never mentioned anything about 1 hour.......I simply stated that those who are not happy with their T and Cs ( in this case Bus Drivers ) have a choice....they can find other employment. Absolutely nothing to stop them doing that ...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And what is the problem with making a profit?

Are you really that Naive? The profit would come with the loss of peoples livelihood and the loss of a serious source of safety with no benefit to the passenger

 

[Moonshot]

Are you really that Naive? The profit would come with the loss of peoples livelihood and the loss of a serious source of safety with no benefit to the passenger

i asked you what is the probelm with making a profit?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

i asked you what is the probelm with making a profit?

*sigh :roll:

 

[Moonshot]

*sigh :roll:

Sigh?

 

[northwichcat]

The Irony Guards like myself and Moonshot are fighting for our careers and Moonshot says something like that lol

Moonshot is someone who previously said that they change their job frequently. He's probably hoping to be driving trams for Metrolink by 2016.

I almost replied to one of his posts agreeing but I read the follow up comment first.

 

[bb21]

Complaints were received about this thread earlier today hence the thread was put into the moderation queue to be dealt with due to its sheer size. At no point was the thread ever deleted.

Unfortunately things take time to be reviewed and all we ask is that members have a little patience and contact the moderators if there were any questions regarding any particular thread. It would be appreciated if moderation decisions are not discussed in public.

Today things took a little longer than usual (around an hour in total) partly due to some technical difficulties, so I apologise if this caused anyone any inconvenience.

 

[Moonshot]

Moonshot is someone who previously said that they change their job frequently. He's probably hoping to be driving trams for Metrolink by 2016.

I almost replied to one of his posts agreeing but I read the follow up comment first.

Where did I say I change jobs frequently? And why would I want to be driving a tram when I actually get paid more than a tram driver? If anything, I should really be going for a train drivers job - which is what a fair number of guards actually do anyway

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Complaints were received about this thread earlier today hence the thread was put into the moderation queue to be dealt with due to its sheer size. At no point was the thread ever deleted.

Unfortunately things take time to be reviewed and all we ask is that members have a little patience and contact the moderators if there were any questions regarding any particular thread. It would be appreciated if moderation decisions are not discussed in public.

Today things took a little longer than usual (around an hour in total) partly due to some technical difficulties, so I apologise if this caused anyone any inconvenience.

No problem bb21 BUT surely you can see why the ones (including myself) were a bit miffed as apart from the odd pub type insult it was an excellent argument AND the thread vanished at mid point

 

[yorkie]

That's understandable (and we'd normally aim to be much quicker than that!) but please do contact us if you have any concerns. If it's urgent, feel free to send a PM to more than one of us for a speedier response (as there's more chance one of us will be free).

 

[313103]

Nobody is forcing anyone to be a bus driver.....if they dont like their T&Cs the solution is simple.......work elsewhere.

I don't particularly like my terms and conditions, so I have a choice accept them and carry on working or be unemployed which as you know only to well it is not really a choice now is it?

So you love your T&Cs then? Because otherwise you wouldn't do what you currently do.

 

[bb21]

No problem bb21 BUT surely you can see why the ones (including myself) were a bit miffed as apart from the odd pub type insult it was an excellent argument AND the thread vanished at mid point

I understand your point, unfortunately with a thread of this size, it is a difficult decision whether to put it in the moderation queue sometimes as problems can escalate quickly while we take time to deal with the complaint. We may get it wrong sometimes, and of course on this occasion the matter was quite well contained, nevertheless on previous occasions the contrary had happened.

If a thread suddenly disappears from view, it is always better to send PMs to the staff team directly, as public threads will not necessarily be noticed until much later, especially if all available moderators are tied up in certain forum matters. We are always happy to provide explanations.

I don't wish to detract from the original discussion in this thread, so if anyone has other suggestions, please let us know directly via PM. We are happy to listen to ideas.

 

[313103]

No problem bb21 BUT surely you can see why the ones (including myself) were a bit miffed as apart from the odd pub type insult it was an excellent argument AND the thread vanished at mid point

I had that was posting something in response to someone then got a message to say a post of mine has been deleted, strangely I don't know what it was.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't particularly like my terms and conditions, so I have a choice accept them and carry on working or be unemployed which as you know only to well it is not really a choice now is it?

So you love your T&Cs then? Because otherwise you wouldn't do what you currently do.

yes I do .....and I made the exact choice I described .....

 

[Merseysider]

I don't particularly like my terms and conditions, so I have a choice accept them and carry on working or be unemployed which as you know only to well it is not really a choice now is it?

So you love your T&Cs then? Because otherwise you wouldn't do what you currently do.

This is an excellent and concise post.

If one has been working the same job for years on end, you get to know people within the job quite well and eventually they become a family of sorts. And chances are, with transport-related employment the reason you are there is because it's a goal you've wanted to achieve, and you've got there, got the job and are doing something you love.

Crummy T&C might put some off, but I'd say those would be the less dedicated.

 

[Moonshot]

This is an excellent and concise post.

If one has been working the same job for years on end, you get to know people within the job quite well and eventually they become a family of sorts. And chances are, with transport-related employment the reason you are there is because it's a goal you've wanted to achieve, and you've got there, got the job and are doing something you love.

Crummy T&C might put some off, but I'd say those would be the less dedicated.

You only have to look at the number of applications recieved every time Norhern Rail advertise for roles - its staggering. It was the same when I worked for Network Rail as well....clearly a lot of people unhappy with their present roles

 

[Tomnick]

I do think, though, that leaving pay and conditions to sort themselves out according to 'supply and demand' (that is, as poor as the employers can get away with) isn't the right approach for this type of job. The employee needs the employer as much as the employer needs the employee - on one hand, you've got a necessarily long and challenging selection process followed by a long training period, and on the other hand you've got a highly-trained workforce whose skills aren't particularly transferable into other roles outside the industry. The race to the bottom, as seen in so many other industries, is surely a route that no one here wants to see the railway industry follow - almost inevitably leading to a high turnover, poorly trained and inexperienced staff and all the associated safety and 'customer service' implications that follow. I've always thought (from experience!) that a happy workforce is a productive one - but treat them like dirt and take every opportunity to find a new way of shafting them, and any savings will soon be lost as a result of the loss of goodwill, greater inflexibility and so on...

 

[Merseysider]

The race to the bottom, as seen in so many other industries, is surely a route that no one here wants to see the railway industry follow - almost inevitably leading to a high turnover, poorly trained and inexperienced staff and all the associated safety and 'customer service' implications that follow.

Welcome to Northern's world of agency staff doing revenue protection.

You only have to look at the number of applications recieved every time Norhern Rail advertise for roles - its staggering. It was the same when I worked for Network Rail as well....clearly a lot of people unhappy with their present roles

I won't disagree that there are bound to be those dissatisfied with their job. However the amount of posters I've seen stuck up in Northernland proclaiming "you wanted more trains, so we're hiring more drivers" and the like clearly shows that number of job applications isn't purely there to fill in for departed staff.

If I got a job driving or conducting trains I'd bloody well do everything I could do to keep it, I wouldn't just roll over and let my employer shaft me but at the same time no matter how tough it got I wouldnt quit... Maybe it's just an attitude problem some people have; that they're ignorant to the fact pretty much every sector of the job market is experiencing a downturn in fortunes and pay freezes, redundancies and compulsory reductions in hours are commonplace and it isn't just the rail industry that has it bad right now. So jumping from job to job when you feel like you can't handle the pressure doesn't really achieve anything in the long run.

 

[muz379]

How would shareholders benefit?

Shareholders would benefit because the extra money saved by downgrading the job conductors currently do and paying them less would be pocketed by the shareholders of whoever is running the franchise . But some passengers and others naively think that this saving would lead to lower fares and more investment when in reality it wont . It will lead to a lower subsidy being attracted by the franchise as operating costs are lowered , which will mean the difference in conductors vs customer service bods pay will be absorbed by the shareholders so they dont loose their current level of profit .

And any investment that does come from the government is going to be used first and foremost to fund the implementation of DOO . Then when passengers are reading all the stats about the gov has implemented £100mil in the railway up north they will wonder where this money has gone but there wont be a member of railway staff in sight to ask the question to

And what is the problem with making a profit?

There is no problem with making a profit per se IMO .However that has got to be done in a way that is responsible to both society and whoever it is you are making a profit from . Be that your employees , customers of your business etc etc . for instance all of the big multinationals that have been involved in some of the tax avoidance scandals are making profit in an irresponsible manner . In the case of the railway one of the big things you have to factor in is the safety of the traveling public as well as the pay and conditions for your staff and your environmental responsibilities .

Nobody is forcing anyone to be a bus driver.....if they dont like their T&Cs the solution is simple.......work elsewhere.

Indeed as business is a business its not a charity for its employees

Whilst it is true that nobody is forcing anybody to do any job and businesses are not charities for their employees , surely any person working full time should be able to attract a living wage . Otherwise you have the problem we currently have where loads of people in work but working for minimum wage are also in receipt of benefits , which is basically anybody that pays tax subsidizing companies that are paying the minimum wage .

Besides if only it where as easy as walking out of the job you dont like because of the pay and conditions and walking into one the next day with favorable conditions . I know loads of graduates who cant even get a job working in Tesco let along a graduate job with a graduate salary . Its just not as easy as finding a job that pays well right away , surely as you said Moonshot the number of people applying for northern rail vacancies shows that people are looking and trying to change up for better pay and conditions . But until they reach that goal surely we should all be able to attract a living wage for whatever job it is that we do .

As for the whole DOO debate , I am relatively new to being a guard , and there is a heck of a lot more to the job than what I thought even when I started training . I knew it was safety critical but I didn't realize I would have to have route knowledge and rules and traction knowledge in as much depth as I have now.Its basically to the point where if the driver cant take power it is the guards job to investigate any problems with the interlocking and the drivers to decide if it could be a mechanical fault with the drivetrain . As well as knowing our location at all times . Be that for the purpose of reporting delays to control , reporting trespass or safety of the line incidents or in the event of an emergency situation requiring attendance of one of more emergency service or an evacuation of the train controlled or otherwise .

Another problem I foresee with going DOO is that whilst all best intentions might be there to always roster two members of staff to every train (A driver and non safety crit customer service bod). It wouldn't be long before cost cutting measures or staff sickness or low staff morale would lead to there being a shortage of these and then you have trains running without this safety crit member of staff because operationally its not a requirement , We then turn our rail network into past memories of the new york subway after dark as antisocial behavior rises to stupid levels . It already goes on now with guards in place but it would only get worse with no member of staff there to . discourage/report/summon assistance .

 

[Moonshot]

I do think, though, that leaving pay and conditions to sort themselves out according to 'supply and demand' (that is, as poor as the employers can get away with) isn't the right approach for this type of job. The employee needs the employer as much as the employer needs the employee - on one hand, you've got a necessarily long and challenging selection process followed by a long training period, and on the other hand you've got a highly-trained workforce whose skills aren't particularly transferable into other roles outside the industry. The race to the bottom, as seen in so many other industries, is surely a route that no one here wants to see the railway industry follow - almost inevitably leading to a high turnover, poorly trained and inexperienced staff and all the associated safety and 'customer service' implications that follow. I've always thought (from experience!) that a happy workforce is a productive one - but treat them like dirt and take every opportunity to find a new way of shafting them, and any savings will soon be lost as a result of the loss of goodwill, greater inflexibility and so on...

Which isnt an issue that affects the railways and is not likely to - I ve already pointed out that there are huge numbers applying for roles......remember these are not 9-5 jobs!!

As far as T & Cs go, its quite ironic that my colleague ( and others too ) dont like the fact that TOCs make a profit and declare dividends for shareholders. To quote an example or two of the irony, the likes of First Group and Stagecoach incentivise staff to share the wealth by encouraging uptake of Employee Share Schemes. Its is also worth pointing out that some 40% of the railways own group pension scheme which has assets of around £20 billion is invested in shares.....and one of its top holdings is in fact Microsoft - the very same Microsoft which made Bill Gates the richest man in the world!!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Its is also worth pointing out that some 40% of the railways own group pension scheme which has assets of around £20 billion is invested in shares.....and one of its top holdings is in fact Microsoft - the very same Microsoft which made Bill Gates the richest man in the world!!!

This of course is the same Bill Gates who made a single £6 billion charity donation in 2010.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

just a little thing called PROFIT
That is all TOC's really care about
Quite simple really

I'm sure the Northern TOC will take its 3% margin or whatever, but the benefit in cost saving at this level goes to the TAXPAYER in reduced subsidy.
The TOC will not simply pocket the savings, it will be reflected in the subsidy payments as part of the franchise contract.
If you read the proposals, I think the aim is to have at least as many staff, but doing different roles.
The TPE franchise does not have the same challenge because its subsidy is much less (the benefit of creaming off the best traffic).

 

[muz379]

As far as T & Cs go, its quite ironic that my colleague ( and others too ) dont like the fact that TOCs make a profit and declare dividends for shareholders. To quote an example or two of the irony, the likes of First Group and Stagecoach incentivise staff to share the wealth by encouraging uptake of Employee Share Schemes. Its is also worth pointing out that some 40% of the railways own group pension scheme which has assets of around £20 billion is invested in shares.....and one of its top holdings is in fact Microsoft - the very same Microsoft which made Bill Gates the richest man in the world!!!

I categorically have no problem that the shareholders of tocs take home a heck of a lot more than my salary in dividends as they pay me a fair wage and I have good T & C's , afterall they are the ones that are taking the risk with their capital and so that should attract a higher premium .

My problem is with the shareholders of G4s taking home massive wads of cash as dividends . But paying the front line staff the bare minimum wage that they legally can or employing people on zero hour contracts so they dont know if they are coming or going from one week to the next . The wage being so low that those same full time staff are still entitled to claim benefits from the state that I as a tax payer am paying for . All tax payers are essentially subsidizing G4s to pay their workers the bare minimum wage

 

[Tomnick]

Which isnt an issue that affects the railways and is not likely to - I ve already pointed out that there are huge numbers applying for roles......remember these are not 9-5 jobs!!

As far as T & Cs go, its quite ironic that my colleague ( and others too ) dont like the fact that TOCs make a profit and declare dividends for shareholders. To quote an example or two of the irony, the likes of First Group and Stagecoach incentivise staff to share the wealth by encouraging uptake of Employee Share Schemes. Its is also worth pointing out that some 40% of the railways own group pension scheme which has assets of around £20 billion is invested in shares.....and one of its top holdings is in fact Microsoft - the very same Microsoft which made Bill Gates the richest man in the world!!!

Huge numbers applying, perhaps - but how many of those are actually suitable for the role? Far, far fewer numbers, I'm sure. Even if there are enough willing and able candidates, such a high turnover can't be good for the industry - much less return from each individual training investment, and a workforce made up almost entirely of inexperienced, demotivated staff.

I've no objection to businesses (as TOCs are) making a profit for their shareholders - as long as that profit doesn't come at the expense of conditions for staff and the quality of the service for the travelling public.

 

[Moonshot]

I categorically have no problem that the shareholders of tocs take home a heck of a lot more than my salary in dividends as they pay me a fair wage and I have good T & C's , afterall they are the ones that are taking the risk with their capital and so that should attract a higher premium .

My problem is with the shareholders of G4s taking home massive wads of cash as dividends . But paying the front line staff the bare minimum wage that they legally can . The wage being so low that those same full time staff are still entitled to claim benefits from the state that I as a tax payer am paying for . All tax payers are essentially subsidizing G4s to pay their workers the bare minimum wage

But there is a National Minimum Wage enforced by government anyway - and there are a lot more employers than just G4s paying it. Employers are named and shamed IF they pay their staff less than that.....and staff are encouraged to whistleblow etc. All taxpayers are also subsidising the whole rail industry.......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Huge numbers applying, perhaps - but how many of those are actually suitable for the role? Far, far fewer numbers, I'm sure. Even if there are enough willing and able candidates, such a high turnover can't be good for the industry - much less return from each individual training investment, and a workforce made up almost entirely of inexperienced, demotivated staff.

I've no objection to businesses (as TOCs are) making a profit for their shareholders - as long as that profit doesn't come at the expense of conditions for staff and the quality of the service for the travelling public.

A train driver gets around £50k a year......I get around £33k in my role when I include commission etc...

Service quality is measured....its part of the T and Cs of the franchise