Bolton/London link newspaper headlines.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the 2011/12 year, 3,259 million journeys were recorded as being made to/from Bolton

Being endowed with a First in Mathematics in 1966, may I ask that a little care is taken to differentiate in the use of a comma and a point when showing decimal part prefixes to the million in postings.

3,259 million is a far greater number than 3.259 million.

 

[northwichcat]

Being endowed with a First in Mathematics in 1966, may I ask that a little care is taken to differentiate in the use of a comma and a point when showing decimal part prefixes to the million in postings.

3,259 million is a far greater number than 3.259 million.

Unless you write a million the way they do on the Continent - 1.000000,00 instead of 1,000000.00

I actually copied and pasted the numbers from a document that referred to numbers in thousands and forgot to change the comma.

If Bolton really had 3,259 million passengers then 2-4 carriage trains certainly wouldn't be sufficient.

 

[WatcherZero]

You've concluded a lot from checking tickets on a small proportion of trains serving Bolton.

If there's no problems then why's Bolton going to benefit from extra capacity in December when only 2 DMUs will be released - there's many Northern routes which could do with extra capacity. And why 2 weeks ago did the Bolton West MP flag issues with TPE changes in parliament?

This summer is probably going to see more North West England passengers than ever before going to Scotland with the Commonwealth Games and then the Edinburgh festival soon after. As a lot of people plan such journeys in advance they are going to find out before they turn up at Bolton station that there are no longer direct services to Glasgow and Edinburgh so aren't going to get on a train you're working and complain about it to you.

Politics, monitoring of post timetable traffic by TfGM has shown no real impact apart from a couple of morning peak services being more crowded, mainly due to people getting off to interchange at Bolton for Victoria/Piccadilly and cramming on the next available service rather than doing it at Salford Crescent.

 

[Moonshot]

You've concluded a lot from checking tickets on a small proportion of trains serving Bolton.

If there's no problems then why's Bolton going to benefit from extra capacity in December when only 2 DMUs will be released - there's many Northern routes which could do with extra capacity. And why 2 weeks ago did the Bolton West MP flag issues with TPE changes in parliament?

This summer is probably going to see more North West England passengers than ever before going to Scotland with the Commonwealth Games and then the Edinburgh festival soon after. As a lot of people plan such journeys in advance they are going to find out before they turn up at Bolton station that there are no longer direct services to Glasgow and Edinburgh so aren't going to get on a train you're working and complain about it to you.

Im sorry but the above is just waffle .........if as you say people are going to plan such journeys in advance, then surely they are going to realise there are no direct services to Scotland from Bolton!!!!!!!!!

I conclude a lot from having worked in the industry not just with Northern Rail........

So what if a Bolton West MP flags up an issue in Parliament.......isnt that what ALL MPs do anyway....

Can I make a suggestion here......why dont you actually get come down on a train with me when Im working one through Bolton.....and I ll show you what the real picture is.....

 

[Hellfire]

Also it might attract Blackburn/Burnley based travellers - presume they make their way towards Preston rather than Manchester just now??

Unlikely to attract me. I live in Darwen and travel to Euston once a week. Even if there was a service from Bolton to Euston I wouldn't use it. Parking at Preston is much easier and the journey time quicker. Certainly would not want to risk getting a train from Bolton and ending up stuck in a queue through Salford Crescent and Deansgate. The potential for delay would be huge given the traffic levels and the high chances of a broken down Northern service holding things up.

 

[northwichcat]

if as you say people are going to plan such journeys in advance, then surely they are going to realise there are no direct services to Scotland from Bolton!!!!!!!!!

What I'm saying is the passengers won't get on a service you are working to Wigan or Preston and complain about the lack of a direct service to you because they are already aware of it. Your posts seem to give the impression that you'd be aware of any passengers dis-satisfaction because you actually work the services.

Can I make a suggestion here......why dont you actually get come down on a train with me when Im working one through Bolton.....and I ll show you what the real picture is.....

Well I recently was on a Saturday evening TPE Blackpool-Manchester Airport service and it had around 30 standing in carriage C between Bolton and Deansgate. Outside of peak hours (M-F 06:30-09:30 and 16:00-18:30) TOCs are supposed to aim for no standing so there certainly are still issues affecting Bolton even if the Northern services you work seem acceptable.

 

[Howardh]

Unlikely to attract me. I live in Darwen and travel to Euston once a week. Even if there was a service from Bolton to Euston I wouldn't use it. Parking at Preston is much easier and the journey time quicker. Certainly would not want to risk getting a train from Bolton and ending up stuck in a queue through Salford Crescent and Deansgate. The potential for delay would be huge given the traffic levels and the high chances of a broken down Northern service holding things up.

If you are using your car for the first part of your journey, and Preston has easy parking facilities (IMO Preston is a far better station than Bolton anyway) then fair enough.

But it's still a possible option for anyone not using a car. Suppose - if it ever happens - it will depend on times and prices.

 

[Moonshot]

What I'm saying is the passengers won't get on a service you are working to Wigan or Preston and complain about the lack of a direct service to you because they are already aware of it. Your posts seem to give the impression that you'd be aware of any passengers dis-satisfaction because you actually work the services.



Well I recently was on a Saturday evening TPE Blackpool-Manchester Airport service and it had around 30 standing in carriage C between Bolton and Deansgate. Outside of peak hours (M-F 06:30-09:30 and 16:00-18:30) TOCs are supposed to aim for no standing so there certainly are still issues affecting Bolton even if the Northern services you work seem acceptable.

dear me.......you really are not aware of what the day to day is like at all. Maybe you ought to do some research......starting off with the fact that the UK has a walk on railway and then take it from there. Walk on means that anyone can turn up with no prior notice just in case you are not aware of what the term means.

I can also assure you I have a very deep knowledge of this industry ..... both from working in it and also the project work I m involved in ....the latest of which actually involves a route that passes through Bolton.

 

[Starmill]

I ll just re iterate.....this will not happen. Happy to be proven wrong.

I'm not really sure those two things go together, to be honest.

Bolton lost virtually all its direct services to Scotland.....which has had no impact whatsoever on passengers using Bolton station.

I wish Glasgow/Edinbrugh and London were comparable but I'm afraid they... aren't.

And also so what if it becomes 'just another commuter service'? A double voyager could give back a bit of the capactiy that Bolton lost recently in one hit and still carry all of its normal Piccadilly - London load, as well as offering a chance for a through-journey. I used to know someone who drove round the M60 from Bolton to Stockport to avoid changing in Manchester to get to London.
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Can I make a suggestion here......why dont you actually get come down on a train with me when Im working one through Bolton.....and I ll show you what the real picture is.....

I'm quite surprised at your conviction at this personally; I would gladly do this myself.

Although I don't agree with you that there is "no demand whatsoever" for this I am quite surprised this is coming through so strongly in your expereinces. I'm furthermore sure that we can all disagree as necessary in a polite and respectful manner
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The potential for delay would be huge given the traffic levels and the high chances of a broken down Northern service holding things up.

Delay due to a busy route? Perhaps, but the WCML south is not exactly free from delays due to congestion, is it. And I also can't imagine that there is much of a measurable difference between reliability on the line through Salford Crescent than Preston - Wigan.

 

[northwichcat]

dear me.......you really are not aware of what the day to day is like at all. Maybe you ought to do some research......starting off with the fact that the UK has a walk on railway and then take it from there. Walk on means that anyone can turn up with no prior notice just in case you are not aware of what the term means.

I can also assure you I have a very deep knowledge of this industry ..... both from working in it and also the project work I m involved in ....the latest of which actually involves a route that passes through Bolton.

Well you'll be well aware of the DfT target for crowding then won't you? That's despite having a walk on railway. I accept passenger numbers can vary due to special events but as far as I'm aware what I experienced was a typical Saturday evening loading on a Blackpool-Manchester Airport service due to Manchester being a popular place for people to head to for nights out.

 

[Moonshot]

Well you'll be well aware of the DfT target for crowding then won't you? That's despite having a walk on railway. I accept passenger numbers can vary due to special events but as far as I'm aware what I experienced was a typical Saturday evening loading on a Blackpool-Manchester Airport service due to Manchester being a popular place for people to head to for nights out.

Passenger numbers can vary on any train at ANY time of day. Standing will never be eradicated - simple as. It is impossible to predict demand to the exact passenger - always has and always will.

 

[Elecman]

Could it be that Virgin may consider routing the proposed Blackpool/Euston service via Bolton and use 1 of the Manchester Euston timetable paths each way thus killing 2 birds with 1 stone as it were??

 

[Starmill]

Could it be that Virgin may consider routing the proposed Blackpool/Euston service via Bolton and use 1 of the Manchester Euston timetable paths each way thus killing 2 birds with 1 stone as it were??

Could do, then they'd get themselves a slice of not only Stockport/Manchester - Bolton but also Manchester - Preston/Poulton/Blackpool too. IF it's feasible.

 

[thealexweb]

I have yet to see one ...... and if it does happen, it will be short lived. As I said, no demand.

You are unlikely to see many because its more expensive to not split ticket it. Every time I do Bolton to London I split it at Manchester because it works out better every time.
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Could do, then they'd get themselves a slice of not only Stockport/Manchester - Bolton but also Manchester - Preston/Poulton/Blackpool too. IF it's feasible.

If ran at peak time, between Stockport to Blackpool, it would be well loaded indeed.
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Is that the same "no demand" which applies to direct Bolton-Scotland services, and which generates so much heat on this forum?

Also for reference, VT (and First I think) proposed to serve Bolton at their commercial risk, not as part of the franchise commitment.
VT will in any case be using the route for Pendolino ECS workings after electrification, as they do with Voyagers now.

The 'no demand' argument about Bolton to Scotland services is so annoying... *looks at a pile of used Bolton to Edinburgh tickets I have accumulated over the last two years*

 

[Howardh]

Isn't one of the best ways of finding out, if a service might be viable, counting the number of times (say) National Rail's website has had "Bolton" outward and either "London" (or, say, "Edinburgh") as destination searched?

Taking note that after their visit to A+E to recover from the shock of the prices, the next thing they will type in is "Manchester" and "London" where they might find cheaper fares to add to the Bolton/Piccadilly return?

Surely that's as technically possible as Google counting the number of searches for the term "Lancashire" "Batting" (although the answer will be *No Results Found*)?

 

[Moonshot]

Isn't one of the best ways of finding out, if a service might be viable, counting the number of times (say) National Rail's website has had "Bolton" outward and either "London" (or, say, "Edinburgh") as destination searched?

Taking note that after their visit to A+E to recover from the shock of the prices, the next thing they will type in is "Manchester" and "London" where they might find cheaper fares to add to the Bolton/Piccadilly return?

Surely that's as technically possible as Google counting the number of searches for the term "Lancashire" "Batting" (although the answer will be *No Results Found*)?

Or maybe just invite expressions of interest from Open Access operators for a Bolton/Scotland service......I would stick my mortgage on none forthcoming though...

 

[Howardh]

Or maybe just invite expressions of interest from Open Access operators for a Bolton/Scotland service......I would stick my mortgage on none forthcoming though...

I don't think many actually want a Bolton/Scotland service to START in Bolton, but having the services back that started in, or go through Manchester (didn't we used to have an inter-city service Birmingham/Glasgow go through Bolton??) seems to be a step forward, rather than the removal of said Mcr > Edinburgh/Glasgow TPX's trains earlier.

However, going the other way (Bolton southwards) may well be popular (or not) with shoppers, commuters and sports fans. As said before, a lot would depend on times/prices. We won't know unless it happens though.

But, as I have written, how many searches are there for Bolton/London? Bet more than a handful.

 

[Moonshot]

I don't think many actually want a Bolton/Scotland service to START in Bolton, but having the services back that started in, or go through Manchester (didn't we used to have an inter-city service Birmingham/Glasgow go through Bolton??) seems to be a step forward, rather than the removal of said Mcr > Edinburgh/Glasgow TPX's trains earlier.

However, going the other way (Bolton southwards) may well be popular (or not) with shoppers, commuters and sports fans. As said before, a lot would depend on times/prices. We won't know unless it happens though.

But, as I have written, how many searches are there for Bolton/London? Bet more than a handful.

As I ve said before, getting to anywhere from anywhere in the UK by rail is not difficult, either direct or through a connection. The challenge going foward for the industry is to maximise efficiency of the network against a background of £3.5 billion of cost savings as identified by the Mcnulty report, and endorsed by the major players. A lot of ideas mooted on here in general are not going to happen......and I have a lot of sympathy for the idea of running fewer but longer trains as mooted by the CEO of Network Rail not so long back.

 

[yorksrob]

A lot of ideas mooted on here in general are not going to happen......and I have a lot of sympathy for the idea of running fewer but longer trains as mooted by the CEO of Network Rail not so long back.

Perhaps to an extent. I think more frequent services have had a lot to do with the success of the railway today. That said, where we have four express trains an hour already on the standedge route, we ought to be thinking of lengthening trains rather than adding more.

I think a lot the emphasis on revenue costs as highlighted by MucNulty is a red herring. Revenue costs go to track access charges and rolling stock leasing costs, which in turn are spent on new trains and capital enhancements for busy routes, not the rural routes that get blamed for being expensive. Perhaps it's the way that capital projects are funded that needs to be looked at.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps to an extent. I think more frequent services have had a lot to do with the success of the railway today. That said, where we have four express trains an hour already on the Standedge route, we ought to be thinking of lengthening trains rather than adding more.

Forgive me if I lost the cognisance of your proposal above, but how do you propose this train lengthening to occur, if it is not by adding more rolling stock.

 

[yorksrob]

Forgive me if I lost the cognisance of your proposal above, but how do you propose this train lengthening to occur, if it is not by adding more rolling stock.

I'm not arguing against more stock. Rather, I'm saying that whilst on paper, running fewer, longer trains seems more cost effective, there's a limit on how far you can take this approach because frequent services attract passengers - particularly non-InterCity services.

 

[Starmill]

Precisely. e.g. one 33 coach train an hour from Manchester to London is clearly not going to be all that feasible...

In principle though, if it can be pulled off correctly, it can be more efficient if you are carrying the same number of passengers and only paying for the fixed costs of one train (most of which are wages).

In the specific case of Standege, 6 trains an hour is part of the 'masterplan' for the route so I think that's not too much of a problem, though perhaps questionable that the extra trains are coming before the lengthening, it's clear that new stock will come with electrification. What length each unit could be though I'm not sure...

 

[northwichcat]

Passenger numbers can vary on any train at ANY time of day. Standing will never be eradicated - simple as. It is impossible to predict demand to the exact passenger - always has and always will.

Hence why targets are based on average loadings for a particular service. If an off-peak train has an average loading of 190 then a 2 car Sprinter is seen as insufficient capacity, if it's 100 then a 2 car Pacer is sufficient capacity even if one day 140 people turn up for it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Could it be that Virgin may consider routing the proposed Blackpool/Euston service via Bolton and use 1 of the Manchester Euston timetable paths each way thus killing 2 birds with 1 stone as it were??

When Virgin originally mooted Bolton (pre Blackpool electrification) it was a single Voyager to be worked in conjunction with a Blackpool Diagram. London-Blackpool, out of service to Bolton, Bolton to London via Manchester. Giving Bolton and Blackpool two services per day.

 

[NSE]

I've never been to Bolton, and can count the trips I've had to Manchester on one hand, so not my area of expertise, but I would add that I think any service to London from somewhere that currently has no service there would always gain usage. It might take some time, but if run with one in the morning rush and one in the evening rush I think it would become attractive. Especially on a route Virgin sign for ECS. What would work well I think (again, just sketching ideas from observations, more than happy to be proved wrong) is a ten car voyager that splits/joins at Piccadilly. But I know platform space is like gold dust there so it can't happen.

I also agree on ticketing. With that distance I'm sure many people split in Manchester, particularly those with cheap advances London-Manchester. Therefore it would make sense not seeing many London-Bolton through tickets.

Also, again, I may be wrong, but don't TPE provide the faster Manchester/Bolton service? If so wouldn't most Bolton/London tickets be on TPE and not on Moonshots northern train?