Revenue Protection Inspectors at Cardiff

[Deerfold]

I think you may have misread my post by mistake.

I'm not referring to travelling on the train; I'm referring to exiting the station.

Let's go back to my example, which I'll try and put into better words.

My parents and I are making a journey from say, Newport to Radyr. I have a 16-25 railcard. On the train going to Cardiff, the conductor comes round and checks all of our tickets, including me showing my railcard. The conductor then marks the tickets, the job is done and that is that.

Then say I went to leave at Cardiff instead of continuing to Radyr, i.e. stopping short. I don't want to take lots of bags with me, so I just take my phone, maybe some cash and my marked ticket to exit the station, to the point where I will no longer be using the railway from this point onwards.

I would obviously have a shock if I come across a Revenue Protection Inspector asking to see my railcard when it has already been checked ON BOARD THE train, as I thought that was it.

If I ever was in such a situation in real life I obviously would keep my railcard on me until I left the station premises now as Revenue Protection are present at Cardiff.

I'm well aware of crew changes. I've caught a train from Newcastle to Bristol with THREE crew changes, with ALL THREE members of staff checking tickets.

I'm quite sure I read your post correctly. I thought you were making the point that once you'd had your ticket checked once it didn't need checking again. I don't see why it's different if it's checked twice whether that's on the train or not.

I realise that such gates can slow things down - I used to exit Kings Cross much more quickly before the current barriers were installed especially when I didn't have to fiddle with my tickets when I have a suitcase and backpack, but I realise they're quite entitled to put them in.

 

[Greenback]

What these checks are doing is to ensure that holders of certain types of tickets have to go through a manual check. There is a need for checks, due to the nature of the services in the south Wales area. A proper manual check of every passenger and every ticket plus railcard would probably cause even more congestion and irritation, so ATW probably see this as a compromise. I would say it's probably the best they can do given the problems in the area and the limitations of the station.

There will probably be quite a few people who are irritated like Dan, but this is, unfortunately, a price that ATW feels is justified given the scale of fare evasion.

 

[Flamingo]

What these checks are doing is to ensure that holders of certain types of tickets have to go through a manual check. There is a need for checks, due to the nature of the services in the south Wales area. A proper manual check of every passenger and every ticket plus railcard would probably cause even more congestion and irritation, so ATW probably see this as a compromise. I would say it's probably the best they can do given the problems in the area and the limitations of the station.

There will probably be quite a few people who are irritated like Dan, but this is, unfortunately, a price that ATW feels is justified given the scale of fare evasion.

The majority of those irritated are the ones not in possession of a railcard (or ticket)...

 

[Greenback]

Even I've found it irritating sometimes when my ticket is rejected at Cardiff and I have to cross the flow of people coming the other way to the manual gate. At least in Swansea they tend to come to you!

But yes, I suspect those caught are even more irritated than Dan is!

 

[DownSouth]

True. It's not the end of the world but still inconvenient. It also shows that if RPIs are checking railcards too, then the on board train managers aren't checking properly, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for RPIs to check at stations either.

There are various reasons (mostly valid reasons, some not) that checks on the train may not have been conducted or may need to be rushed.

Perhaps a future smartcard scheme could solve this issue by combining the railcard (or any other pass allowing a concession fare) and the ticket into one physical card - and removing the option to make a casual purchase of a discounted ticket.

Edit: or future ticket vending machines to require insertion of a valid concession pass before permitting such a ticket to be bought, and showing a pass to be required when purchasing from a ticket office.

 

[najaB]

...or future ticket vending machines to require insertion of a valid concession pass before permitting such a ticket to be bought, and showing a pass to be required when purchasing from a ticket office.

Which wouldn't help with online sales, and also would mean that I couldn't buy tickets for both myself and a friend/relative who travels with a rail card unless they were at the station with me.

 

[gswindale]

Although this would cost money to implement, what about some system similar to some online banking systems whereby there is a 2 step validation process.

Thus a railcard number and pin device are required.

Allows you to buy online; but doesn't immediately solve the issue of buying for family members?

 

[Fare-Cop]

or future ticket vending machines to require insertion of a valid concession pass before permitting such a ticket to be bought, and showing a pass to be required when purchasing from a ticket office.

One of a number of options that are already under investigation

 

[Gareth Marston]

One of a number of options that are already under investigation

ATW have just "invested" £ millions in installing tvm's all over there network where you can press the button for railcard with no check if you have one. I suspect they've woken up to the fact that they made fraudulent travel easier themselves!

 

[najaB]

It's not that hard really: a train journey starts when you pass the barriers (if present) to enter the (first) train, and ends when you get off the (last) train (or pass the barriers if present). Your ticket can be checked any number of times during the journey, so have your ticket and railcard for the entire duration of your journey.

There's no crime in buying a ticket without a rail card, the crime occurs when you attempt to use a ticket you aren't entitled to so there's no reason to stop people from buying the ticket.

Problem solved.

 

[87 027]

Indeed. So long as the ticket and railcard are both valid when presented I'm not aware of any requirement for the railcard to be purchased first. Earlier this year I bought some railcard discounted advance tickets online but didn't pick up the railcard (Family & Friends) until a few days before travel, and even then the ticket office kindly offered to post-date it to the actual day of travel (and no it wasn't a renewal)

 

[Fare-Cop]

ATW have just "invested" £ millions in installing tvm's all over there network where you can press the button for railcard with no check if you have one. I suspect they've woken up to the fact that they made fraudulent travel easier themselves!

Not so, the many options being considered are not so parochial as to be restricted to a single rail operator.

There is currently no requirement to press a button to confirm that you hold a valid railcard at the time of purchase, but that does not negate the liability in terms of use. The railcard conditions require that the user shows a valid ticket and valid railcard together at the time of travel.

 

[RJ]

Indeed. So long as the ticket and railcard are both valid when presented I'm not aware of any requirement for the railcard to be purchased first. Earlier this year I bought some railcard discounted advance tickets online but didn't pick up the railcard (Family & Friends) until a few days before travel, and even then the ticket office kindly offered to post-date it to the actual day of travel (and no it wasn't a renewal)

Some ticket office clerks won't do it. I recently tried to buy a batch of YP discounted tickets - a number of clerks refused to do it because I couldn't present a railcard, even though they were dated for advance travel. Some said that it'd be fine if I presented someone else's railcard.

They are within their rights to do so as of course, it's in line with the T&Cs. I prefer to endorse the ticket to show that the reqirement to hold a railcard was made clear at the time of purchase, but that's just me. If someone say they're buying the advance dated discounted ticket on behalf of someone else, or it'd be inconvenient to buy at the time of travel, I give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not so, the many options being considered are not so parochial as to be restricted to a single rail operator.

There is currently no requirement to press a button to confirm that you hold a valid railcard at the time of purchase, but that does not negate the liability in terms of use. The railcard conditions require that the user shows a valid ticket and valid railcard together at the time of travel.

I'm not talking about the terms and conditions of use of railcard ticket purchase but the practical application by customers that can opt to get a discounted ticket without being checked and then have a reasonable chance on a busy train of not being checked and then using the barriers. I'm sure the trick is common knowledge in the valleys. It's certainly a loop hole that's costing ATW extra to hire in RPI's until the word gets out.

 

[34D]

Simple advice to the OP:

-be prepared to show your ticket & railcard at your starting station

-be prepared to show your ticket & railcard on each train more than once

-be prepared to show your ticket & railcard at your end station

 

[Fare-Cop]

I'm not talking about the terms and conditions of use of railcard ticket purchase but the practical application by customers that can opt to get a discounted ticket without being checked and then have a reasonable chance on a busy train of not being checked and then using the barriers. I'm sure the trick is common knowledge in the valleys. It's certainly a loop hole that's costing ATW extra to hire in RPI's until the word gets out.

Yes of course that 'trick' is common knowledge in the valleys, just as it has been nationwide since the introduction of passenger operated self service ticket machines more than 30 years ago. It is not a new phenomenon.

It is just one of many reasons why visual checks by real people remain necessary.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes of course that 'trick' is common knowledge in the valleys, just as it has been nationwide since the introduction of passenger operated self service ticket machines more than 30 years ago. It is not a new phenomenon.

It is just one of many reasons why visual checks by real people remain necessary.

Given the effort ATW are making to clamp down on it the installation of tvm's in the valleys appears to have been treated as something of a Christmas present for cheaper fares by many folk

 

[Fare-Cop]

the installation of tvm's in the valleys appears to have been treated as something of a Christmas present for cheaper fares by many folk

For those who are minded to look for ways to cheat the system, I agree with you.

The honest majority simply buy the right ticket.

 

[richw]

Now that is complete rubbish!

I believe some services on the Valley lines are heavily used and by the nature of the service; the guard may not be able to check tickets due to having to perform other duties.

Thus having a check at the station is the way forward.

I travelled Bridgend to Cardiff last Friday, and my ticket wasn't checked once on either train, so agree that the check at the station is the way forward.

As a frequent visitor to this forum I know to have my railcard and ticket ready at the gate line. I had a baby in push chair with me so went to the manual gate line automatically anyway for ease of use.

On a side note I must say the lady on the gate line at Bridgend is one of the politest and most helpful rail officials I've ever encountered. A credit to her TOC.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The worst is when the ticket won't work in the barrier (because it is a railcard discounted ticket, or because the station is an intermediate station, or because you have just passed through the gate in the other direction) but the staff treat you as if you have done something wrong. A FCC gateline assistant really didn't like the fact that happened to me at Luton on the weekend.

 

[jon0844]

I must be well known now, as when I have a ticket that triggers seek assistance, I'm always let through without fuss. Staff won't even check the error code.

When it comes to YP tickets, staff certainly don't treat people badly at Hatfield. They know the gates are set to stop those tickets, and once they see the railcard they will say thank you and let people go.

I'm sure word has got around by now as I've not seen anyone stopped for ages because they'd forgotten their card etc.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I rather think that the moral of the story is actually to be prepared when exiting any station to have ALL relevant documentation readily to hand for inspection - ticket AND railcard if you have used one to acquire said ticket. Simples...

Simple advice to the OP:

-be prepared to show your ticket & railcard at your starting station

-be prepared to show your ticket & railcard on each train more than once

-be prepared to show your ticket & railcard at your end station

I don't need reminding as this is what I do now.

Ticket checks by people rather than machine would be an improvement. If you know you'll need to show your Railcard, you'll have it ready, and it would mean Railcards and AP reservations would get checked, and cut down on doughnutting.

At Didcot before the barriers were installed there were two members of staff checking tickets which was efficient and didn't cause much of a queue. Now there are 4 barriers, which cause longer queues in addition to the general irritation of barriers, as well as seemingly requiring at least three people to man them.

OK for Didcot the issue is not enough gates, but I maintain that for mostly Intercity stations (which would probably not include Cardiff) checks should be done by people not gates. Passengers will have piles of luggage and are likely to be less familiar with the railway (e.g. which one of their pile of tickets to use), and much more likely to be on Advances.

A fair observation.

I'm quite sure I read your post correctly. I thought you were making the point that once you'd had your ticket checked once it didn't need checking again. I don't see why it's different if it's checked twice whether that's on the train or not.

Oh I see. At first I didn't understand but I know now.

I realise that such gates can slow things down - I used to exit Kings Cross much more quickly before the current barriers were installed especially when I didn't have to fiddle with my tickets when I have a suitcase and backpack, but I realise they're quite entitled to put them in.

The issue we've got with Cardiff is that there's only three barriers each side, which isn't enough for the size of the station and the city it serves.

Even I've found it irritating sometimes when my ticket is rejected at Cardiff and I have to cross the flow of people coming the other way to the manual gate. At least in Swansea they tend to come to you!

But yes, I suspect those caught are even more irritated than Dan is!

They should come to you at Cardiff too but they can't be bothered!

Perhaps a future smartcard scheme could solve this issue by combining the railcard (or any other pass allowing a concession fare) and the ticket into one physical card - and removing the option to make a casual purchase of a discounted ticket.

Edit: or future ticket vending machines to require insertion of a valid concession pass before permitting such a ticket to be bought, and showing a pass to be required when purchasing from a ticket office.

A good idea! Could be worth mentioning to ATW

It's not that hard really: a train journey starts when you pass the barriers (if present) to enter the (first) train, and ends when you get off the (last) train (or pass the barriers if present). Your ticket can be checked any number of times during the journey, so have your ticket and railcard for the entire duration of your journey.

There's no crime in buying a ticket without a rail card, the crime occurs when you attempt to use a ticket you aren't entitled to so there's no reason to stop people from buying the ticket.

Problem solved.

It isn't hard no, but I wasn't aware of this when I first came across an RPI, hence why I asked him why he wanted to see my railcard.

Some people I expect still don't understand this and will probably ask the same thing as I did!

 

[Deerfold]

The issue we've got with Cardiff is that there's only three barriers each side, which isn't enough for the size of the station and the city it serves.

That does sound rather small - Leeds has far more (but then they're funnelling into a smaller gap and have the information screens just after them so people seem to go through and stop immediately).

 

[Greenback]

It's at the entrance/exit to the passenger subway, which means the available space is a bit narrow. Unfortunately, I can't think of anywhere else it could go due to the design of the station.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It's at the entrance/exit to the passenger subway, which means the available space is a bit narrow. Unfortunately, I can't think of anywhere else it could go due to the design of the station.

They could do something like make the gateline into a semi circular shape so it comes out into main station concourse, allowing more gates to be put in. Not sure how much help it would actually be though since you still have the issue of the narrow space the other side of the barriers.

 

[Hyphen]

They could do something like make the gateline into a semi circular shape so it comes out into main station concourse, allowing more gates to be put in. Not sure how much help it would actually be though since you still have the issue of the narrow space the other side of the barriers.

Derby station does this fairly well IMO. The gateline juts out to provide more room for barriers, without impeding too much on the available concourse space (it'll always be a compromise).

Obviously needing to be careful about WHSmith and the ticket office, I think the available space on the concourse at Cardiff would be enough to allow a setup like Derby.

Another option would be to make better use of the second subway. Costly, but they could rip out one of the two lifts on each of 1/2 and 3/4 and have a set of stairs down to the second subway (like 6/7 does). Could be a useful entrance/exit only route - perhaps one which swaps direction in the rush hours.

 

[Greenback]

Derby station does this fairly well IMO. The gateline juts out to provide more room for barriers, without impeding too much on the available concourse space (it'll always be a compromise).

Obviously needing to be careful about WHSmith and the ticket office, I think the available space on the concourse at Cardiff would be enough to allow a setup like Derby.

I'm not sure, I'll have to have another look next time I'm there. You could be right, it might work...

Another option would be to make better use of the second subway. Costly, but they could rip out one of the two lifts on each of 1/2 and 3/4 and have a set of stairs down to the second subway (like 6/7 does). Could be a useful entrance/exit only route - perhaps one which swaps direction in the rush hours.

That could be a very good solution, but I suspect that ATW won't do anything until there is funding for the next renovation or modernisation, which could be some way away.

 

[Yew]

Where in the railcard terms and conditions does it say that you wont be allowed through automatic barriers anyway

 

[Haywain]

Where in the railcard terms and conditions does it say that you wont be allowed through automatic barriers anyway

In the same place that it says that you will be allowed through!

 

[krus_aragon]

Another option would be to make better use of the second subway. Costly, but they could rip out one of the two lifts on each of 1/2 and 3/4 and have a set of stairs down to the second subway (like 6/7 does).

It would be unfortunate timing as well, given the money spent on refurbishing the lifts roughly two years ago.