Future locomotives / multiple units for the national collection

[G0ORC]

The national collection should contain items that are historically significant in the evolution of UK railways, so yes, definitely a Pacer and a 156 (which was I think the first DMU to be called a 'Sprinter' - the 150's were intended to be 'urban' DMUs, not Sprinters as far as I remember).

Tony

Sorry but incorrect.

The 150/1s were introduced at Derby, where the complete fleet (150001, 150002, 151001, 151002, 154001, 154002 and 150101-150150 and the RTC Track Recording Unit were based from new) in 1984/5(?). A Sprinter tie (which I still have amongst a vast collection of ties) was given to all of those involved in the introduction.

The great day was commemorated by a member of the local athletics club, trying to outpace 150101 along Platform 3 at Derby with press in attendance.

The 156s - of which 156401 to 156425 were allocated to Etches Park from new were classed as "Super Sprinters".

 

[ac6000cw]

The 156s - of which 156401 to 156425 were allocated to Etches Park from new were classed as "Super Sprinters".

OK, thanks for the correction - I was getting confused between the plain 'Sprinters' and 'Super Sprinters'.

Were the 150's originally dubbed 'Sprinters' (when built), or was that marketing name applied to them retrospectively ?

 

[G0ORC]

OK, thanks for the correction - I was getting confused between the plain 'Sprinters' and 'Super Sprinters'.

Were the 150's originally dubbed 'Sprinters' (when built), or was that marketing name applied to them retrospectively ?

As far as I can recollect they were dubbed "Sprinters" from the start.

I have to say that seeing 150101 brought back a lot of memories a couple of weeks ago. I was on my way back from St Erth to Plymouth and 101 rolled up, much changed externally and internally from the time I was on duty in Derby PSB (where the unit controllers were based then) and seeing 101 on the connecting line outside of the PSB on delivery to Etches Park.

For information 150103 was used as the "fitter training" unit. Spares were so scarce that it was used as a "Christmas tree" as virtually stripped to keep the rest of the fleet going. It was eventually hauled back to York, having never carried a passenger, about nine months after delivery so as York Works could re-build it.

103 didn't go into service until well over a year after the rest of them - its first trip was empty to Burton to work a special Burton - Derby in lieu of a very late Class 1 which it accomplished without incident until it got to Derby when the brakes wouldn't release to get it out of the station!

Ah well, back to the drawing board.

 

[DarloRich]

RHC Designation list shows the following locos and stock:

"Class 43 Diesel Locomotives plus Coaches comprising InterCity 125 High Speed Trains"
"Class 91 Locomotive no. 91031*Sir Henry Royce*(last high-speed locomotive built for BR, and holder of speed record for train conveying passengers in Britain: 154.1mph)
"Class 37 Locomotives nos. 37350/D6700 NRM National Railway Museum (formerly D6700, then 37119) [Disposal to NRM − 17.11.00] and 37351 (formerly D 6702, then 37002) [De-designated – 17.11.00]"
"Class 47 Locomotives: no. 47798 Prince William (formerly D1656, then 47072, then 47609, then 47834) [Disposal to NRM − 5.3.04]; no. 47799 Prince Henry (formerly D1654, then 47070, then 47620, then 47835) De-designated other than nameplates and crests − 5.3.04."
"Class 303 Electric Multiple Units nos. 032 and 085 (Glasgow ‘Blue Trains’) Amended designation: see 1996/5. [Disposal of set 032 to Scottish Railway Preservation Society, subject to suitable terms; and de-designation of set 085 − 16.11.01."
"Class 311 (Glasgow ‘Blue Train’) Electric Multiple Unit Driving Battery Trailer no. 977844 (formerly 76433) (from unit no. 936103) [See also 2000/4]*
[Disposal to North Lanarkshire Council − 20.5.02]"
"Class 101 Diesel Multiple Unit nos. 53204 (formerly 50204) and 54056 (formerly 56056) [Disposal to NRM – 5.12.03] Amended vehicle numbers − 19.3.04: 51192 (DMBS − Driving Motor Brake Second − no previous number) and 54352 (DTS − Driving Trailer Second − formerly no. 56352)"
"Class 33 Locomotive no. 33116 (formerly D 6535) [Disposal to NRM − 22.3.02]"
"Class 58 Locomotive no. 58050 Toton Traction Depot"
"Class 306 Electric Multiple Unit no. 017 [Disposal to NRM − 9.6.06]"
"Class 423 4VEP Driving Trailer no. 76875, from unit 3545 [Disposal to NRM – 3.2.06]"
"Class 414 2HAP unit no. 4308 (vehicle nos: 61275 and 75395) [Disposal to NRM − 3.2.06]"
"Parry People Movers – Class 139 Gas/Flywheel Hybrid Drive Railcars nos. 139001 and 139002"
"Class 60 Locomotive no. 60100"
"Pendolino ‘Power Car’ and Coach at Virgin Training Academy, Crewe. Vehicles nos. 69133 (DMRFO – Driving Motor First Restaurant Open) and 69833 (PTSRMB – Pantograph Trailer Standard with Miniature Buffet) from set no. 390033 City of Glasgow, damaged in Greyrigg/Lambrigg accident in 23rd February 2007."

As posted by me elsewhere

Thanks

Is that list now not academic with the demise of the Railway Heritage Committee?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 150/1s were introduced at Derby, where the complete fleet (150001, 150002, 151001, 151002, 154001, 154002 and 150101-150150 and the RTC Track Recording Unit were based from new) in 1984/5(?)

Weren't 154 001 and 154 002 just 150 001 and 150 002 fitted with different power / transmission bits for a while?

 

[ac6000cw]

There is bit of info about the 154's here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_150

 

[G0ORC]

Weren't 154 001 and 154 002 just 150 001 and 150 002 fitted with different power / transmission bits for a while?

Peter,

I've mislead you a bit I think. 150002 became 154002 but 150001 remained as it was built. I'm trying for the life of me to remember what exactly was different about them, but it certainly was in the power/transmission area.

Found it - see here http://www.traintesting.com/Class154.htm

Although they had diagrammed work on the Matlock branch we didn't see much of 150001 and 154002 as they spent a large proportion of their time on test at the Railway Technical Centre or unfit for service in Etches Park.

When we did get them for service they were difficult to use since only Derby crews signed them at that time so Matlock is generally where they went.

At that time they were both semi- "experimental" and as such they were dreadfully unreliable. The unit controllers (I was one) would do almost anything to avoid using them in active service and sometimes the only work they got was the Mon-Fri mileage accumulation runs at 2354 Derby - Cricklewood and return. When (or if) they got back off that they would invariably fail and they reached the stage where they were simply a liability (as were 151001/2 renumbered later 151003/4 which were meant to run to Cricklewood with them).

Eventually 154002 became a two car set because centre car reached the stage where it was "unrepairable" due the one-off nature of its design. That makes me think that maybe it was only the centre cars that were the "experimental" ones but its a long time ago now and my memory isn't what it was.

Eventually of course, they became standard units and were renumbered back to 150001 and 150002.

 

[petersi]

Should be a class 313
First second generation emu
First dual voltage
First trightlock coupler in use in uk

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[hacman]

Hopefully... A Tyne and Wear Metro car.

Yes! Although whilst not part of the collection, a Tyneside stock unit has already been on display at the NRM.

It's length and inability to be easily split did result in it occupying part of the turntable in the main hall, however.

Hopefully we'll end up with 2 of these units left in working order on the network when their time with the scrapers torch comes.

Jon

 

[fgwrich]

Peter,

I've mislead you a bit I think. 150002 became 154002 but 150001 remained as it was built. I'm trying for the life of me to remember what exactly was different about them, but it certainly was in the power/transmission area.

Found it - see here http://www.traintesting.com/Class154.htm

Although they had diagrammed work on the Matlock branch we didn't see much of 150001 and 154002 as they spent a large proportion of their time on test at the Railway Technical Centre or unfit for service in Etches Park.

When we did get them for service they were difficult to use since only Derby crews signed them at that time so Matlock is generally where they went.

At that time they were both semi- "experimental" and as such they were dreadfully unreliable. The unit controllers (I was one) would do almost anything to avoid using them in active service and sometimes the only work they got was the Mon-Fri mileage accumulation runs at 2354 Derby - Cricklewood and return. When (or if) they got back off that they would invariably fail and they reached the stage where they were simply a liability (as were 151001/2 renumbered later 151003/4 which were meant to run to Cricklewood with them).

Eventually 154002 became a two car set because centre car reached the stage where it was "unrepairable" due the one-off nature of its design. That makes me think that maybe it was only the centre cars that were the "experimental" ones but its a long time ago now and my memory isn't what it was.

Eventually of course, they became standard units and were renumbered back to 150001 and 150002.

Almost standard units until recent modifications by First Great Western at Brush Loughborough - before then, they still had a few non standard modifications including shorter range fuel tanks and even then, two different type of fuel tank pipe connectors. 150002, which still remains the lessor of the two for reliability, still has a few quirks from it's prototype days including the vents for the former Class 158 Air Conditioning trials, and the 'shark fin' roof vents as well. And oddly, a very whiry gearbox!

But I certainly think they should both be preserved, with at least one entering the national collection. Perhaps the second unit could prove worthy to Pres lines such as the Swanage Railway or East Lancs for use on pres railway to mainline connections.

 

[trainplan1]

1x Class 142

As a lesson from history that shall never be repeated...

There will have to be a disclaimer when entering the exhibit area containing the 142 stating that the NRM take no responsibility for any fainting or shock that occurs upon viewing such a terrible piece of railway heritage.

 

[scarby]

I reckon they should buy that 4DD double-decker that's rotting away at a farm in Sellindge and restore it.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Class 86 are still in regular service after 40 years of service. There should be one of those in National Collection (Les Ross, perhaps?).

 

[thegrimeater]

Class 86 are still in regular service after 40 years of service. There should be one of those in National Collection (Les Ross, perhaps?).

Surely Les Ross is privately preserved by the Les Ross himself? I would have thought he'd want to keep using it on mainline excursions.

 

[Boothby97]

Surely Les Ross is privately preserved by the Les Ross himself? I would have thought he'd want to keep using it on mainline excursions.

Yes he does own it outright.
As the National Collection has 84001 (at Barrow Hill) and 87001 (at the NRM), then would they really consider getting an 86?


Thanks, Sam

 

[ac6000cw]

Yes he does own it outright.
As the National Collection has 84001 (at Barrow Hill) and 87001 (at the NRM), then would they really consider getting an 86?


Thanks, Sam

I think the 86's are the largest class of electric locos ever to operate in the UK (100 were built), and in a few years time they might celebrate their 50th birthday in revenue service. They were the backbone of WCML traction for many years (passenger and freight).

That makes them at least as important as an A4, Deltic, 47 et al. (IMHO)

 

[Bill Stanier]

Yes he does own it outright.
As the National Collection has 84001 (at Barrow Hill) and 87001 (at the NRM), then would they really consider getting an 86?

84001 is significant as an example of the first generation 25Kv BR locos, so deserves a place. 87001 was the first of the 3rd generation. So not only is there a slot for a 2nd generation 25Kv loco, the 86 should be in the collection simply because it's been in service longer than its predecessors and its successors, and is still working today and on into the foreseeable future!

 

[ac6000cw]

87001 was the first of the 3rd generation.

I think that title should go to 87101 really.

It was the first thyristor-controlled loco in BR service - the other 87's were essentially a development of the 86, with 25% more power and frame-mounted motors, but retaining tap-changer power control.

And you could say the AC-drive class 88 will be the 4th generation....

 

[Boothby97]

I think that title should go to 87101 really.

It was the first thyristor-controlled loco in BR service - the other 87's were essentially a development of the 86, with 25% more power and frame-mounted motors, but retaining tap-changer power control.

And you could say the AC-drive class 88 will be the 4th generation....

Although that was scrapped a few years ago

 

[ac6000cw]

Although that was scrapped a few years ago

It could still be awarded the title posthumously

Actually, just realized that of course that the first AC-drive '4th generation' electric locos to run on the UK system were the 92's (doh!)

(the CTRL Shuttle locos are the other possibility, but you could argue that they don't actually run on the 'network', and they've already got the 'most powerful' title anyway)

 

[edwin_m]

A 92 should definitely find its way into the collection, as almost certainly the last class of standard gauge locomotives to be built in the UK.

 

[Boothby97]

A 92 should definitely find its way into the collection, as almost certainly the last class of standard gauge locomotives to be built in the UK.

And also for being the last class to work a train under BR (with 92003 used).

The article about EWS/DBS on the Class 58 Locomotive Group website has this,

So, it wasn’t until November 21 1997, the 2315 service from Dollands Moor to Wembley (hauled by 92003 Beethoven) became the last BR operated train

Thanks, Sam

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Like it or not, a Pacer probably deserves a place at the NRM- probably a 142 as they'll most likely be retired first. A 150 and a 156 might be worthwhile too.

Hopefully at least two 442s will be preserved in working order and retaining OTMR & TPWS for use on charters. A third should go to the NRM and be restored to 'as-built' condition. Other than that, one of each of the 3 generations of EMU (PEP, Mk3 & Networker) and a 325.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Hopefully at least two 442s will be preserved in working order and retaining OTMR & TPWS for use on charters.

For that to happen they'd need to have their traction motors replaced

 

[HarryTanser]

58050 in Spain has already been put down as an NRM loco upon return

The class 58 looks like a class 20 with an extra cab! They are really nice though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For that to happen they'd need to have their traction motors replaced

They'd definitely need that to stay in full service- As discussed on the '442 Future' thread though, perhaps for just the occasional charter a re-wind might suffice... Any recently retired fitters from Bomo fancy getting their hands dirty?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Definately should have a class 91 (along with a DVT and a few coaches, maybe 5, to run with it). Trouble is, I can't decide which 91 I most want to see preserved, so might have to go for serveral of them (National Collection only needs one I suppose, but other preservation groups also exist).

The ones I think I'd most like to see preserved are (assuming Wikipedia has the right names with the right locos):

• 91001 'Swallow' (INTERCITY Swallow livery)
• 91110 'Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight' (because it is the record holder) (East Coast BOBMF livery)
• 91013 'Sir Michael Faraday' (INTERCITY Swallow livery) (such a fitting name for an electric locomotive)
• 91019 'Scottish Enterprise' (East Coast 'Flying Scotsman' livery)
• 91029 'Queen Elizabeth II' (GNER or INTERCITY Swallow livery)
• 91031 (because it was the last one, I assume) (INTERCITY Swallow livery)

That matches the number of preserved LNER A4s! I suppose at a push if I had to choose between them I would drop 91019, but the other five are very hard to choose between indeed.

 

[The Decapod]

Some that should be ritually burned rather than joining the National Collection are all pacers and all sprinters...

If people had thought like that 50 years ago, there'd probably be no GWR pannier tanks or auto-coaches left, and certainly none of the first generation 4-wheel railbuses!

 

[DarloRich]

Definately should have a class 91 (along with a DVT and a few coaches, maybe 5, to run with it). Trouble is, I can't decide which 91 I most want to see preserved, so might have to go for serveral of them (National Collection only needs one I suppose, but other preservation groups also exist).

The ones I think I'd most like to see preserved are (assuming Wikipedia has the right names with the right locos):

• 91001 'Swallow' (INTERCITY Swallow livery)
• 91110 'Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight' (because it is the record holder) (East Coast BOBMF livery)
• 91013 'Sir Michael Faraday' (INTERCITY Swallow livery) (such a fitting name for an electric locomotive)
• 91019 'Scottish Enterprise' (East Coast 'Flying Scotsman' livery)
• 91029 'Queen Elizabeth II' (GNER or INTERCITY Swallow livery)
• 91031 (because it was the last one, I assume) (INTERCITY Swallow livery)

That matches the number of preserved LNER A4s! I suppose at a push if I had to choose between them I would drop 91019, but the other five are very hard to choose between indeed.

dreamworld stuff. In realty one will survive if only to continue the "Flying Scotsman" story.

 

[GatwickDepress]

For that to happen they'd need to have their traction motors replaced

And ruin the authentic passenger experience of a motor immolating, leading to four hours in a dank dark tunnel somewhere south of Purley?! For shame!