The fare would be shared as per the usual LENNON system where a lot of operators receive a cut no matter who you travelled with. Northern would probably get a little commission for selling the ticket
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The fare would be shared as per the usual LENNON system where a lot of operators receive a cut no matter who you travelled with. Northern would probably get a little commission for selling the ticket
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I feel this issue needs to be tackled head-on, 313103. I perhaps am not the best person to do it but you've been asked to clarify once and now people are just going to get annoyed at you.
Also, you have annoyed somebody else who has come out and said "You know what? I am saying guards don't do there jobs properly!" which probably wouldn't have happened if this issue were being dealt with sensibly in the first instance.
What has actually been said, prior to your further aggravation of the thread, is this:
This post explains a little misguidedly that a passenger has a 'duty' to seek the guard - which has been gently and not-so-gently advised as being over the top further down the thread; it's demonstrably not a duty, but it can be advisable to seek the guard in some situations.
If they remain in the cab though; this is a significant deterrent, do you not agree? I personally wouldn't knock on a cab door to ask to buy a ticket - I have said before that I think if the guard is not out selling ticket's there is a good reason for that. I have been advised by some guards on here that they and their colleagues generally wouldn't mind this anyway as long as they weren't in the middle of something else which requires their full attention. Nevertheless. Some guards do stay in the cab and not go out and sell tickets when they could! It is a fact. ANothernGuard has provided an excellent list of reasons as to why this might happen and it is hardly for us to judge that if that is how he makes the call on when to sell tickets or do otherwise in the course of his duties.
This post explains that most passengers will share my mentality above or adopt a less active approach, not a more active one. I would walk the full length of a the passenger area of a train in which everyone has a seat if I had too in search of a guard for a ticket buying purpose, most people would not do more than that. It follows that more people than me would buy a ticket if the guard came down to check them, or would catch his or her attention if they just came offering to sell them. So, as far as most people's attitudes about what is acceptable go, there is ostensibly no way to pay for a ticket onboard a train unless a member of staff is selling tickets in this manner, which is common sense resulting from the fact that we don't have ticket machines on trains.
This post uses an ironic comparison which draws on the announcements we often hear as passengers about not leaving your luggage lying around, which highlights one significant difficulty lots of people might have with the advice to seek the guard. However the point is somewhat moot if the guard is in the cab because, luggage or no most people aren't going to knock on the door and ask anyway, myself included.
Guards are not incapable of doing things wrong, and more importantly neither are the TOCs - and if they provided adequate facilities at stations, this wouldn't be an issue - but you cannot say that any criticism of the unhelpful status quo must be avoided on the grounds it might be anti-guard. Admittedly the language of 'hiding' in the case is regrettable but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it.
There is currently a serious issue with the way people who board at unstaffed stations currently obtain tickets. You can hardly deny this. But guards and other revenue staff are part of the solution and not the problem.
To conclude: this attitude is only going to make the "Staff v Passenger" sort of confrontation we often get on here worse, where passengers don't understand the complexities and demands on the roles of staff and staff in turn don't empathise with the stresses and difficulties passengers face on their journeys - which are almost always as a result of many of the badly-managed aspects of the railway so often discussed and criticized on here and very rarely staff on the ground.
It would help all of us if we could try to see this from the other side's point of view from time to time and all be a little more... harmonious.
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Oh, if only that was so, then I must be dreaming all the memos and time with the managers I get where they talk about revenue and ticket sales. Sometimes its a vicious circle for us. The company says buy before you travel, so they do, so you go through a train and check tickets, and thus sell none, and then they moan about poor ticket sales on a shift. Some jobs you sell over 60 plus tickets, some jobs you sell one or two.
Note, on the 377's, 313's and 442's i work, we do not open the doors, just close them. Some folks on certain local trains, with short hops learn where to sit in the hope that you wont get a chance to see them. Its amazing at some stations how few passengers board at your door, but make a beline for another coach. sometimes you get em, sometimes you dont. And a pass paying with a card that declines can be the difference in managing to check tickets.
Anyway, off to work, 442's to london bridge await.
This thread is a great example of why Northern should move to the Glasgow suburban model: ie DOO but with the former guards engaged as Ticket Examiners, who's focus is 100% tickets and customer service.
(does this count as guard bashing, or as an intelligent comment upon the industry?)
(does this count as guard bashing, or as an intelligent comment upon the industry?)
No, it counts as a failure to understand the 'role and responsibilities' of the guard beyond that of a revenue protection person. How much would you like to pay for your ticket in totally unprofitable to the point of being a basket case Northern land to make the necessary modifications to the infrastructure to allow the trains to run safely without a guard. This includes rebuilding stations, resignalling marginal lines all at once and potentially as it's not been trialled before with DOO-P services here, removing mountains from the top of large tunnels in remote areas so they can be cut out.
For the volume of fares to collect it's not worth it. Short of the Irish model of the driver hanging out the window to dispatch the train, which isn't permitted in any but limited existing circumstances here, it is not the cheap and easy option people outside the industry think it is. I am very close to a manager who has brought in DOO schemes and they are of the opinion that apart from perhaps urban services with the same rolling stock and modern stations like Brum XCity it may never expand in general terms 'up north' because it isn't worth the investment.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
Is that why Virgin and XC are the only operators who don't allow Northern's revenue team at Piccadilly to be on platforms where their services are departing from?
I've noticed Northern will sometimes surprise commuters traveling in the front unit of non-gangway stock and have a conductor on that unit as well, how is the conductor restored to work that duty, I noticed the other week in Altrincham when Chester races were on and a 2x142 set was heading to Chester, there was a conductor in each unit
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Northern have issues with 4 car units stopping at Mouldsworth in the Manchester direction, not due to the platform length but due to the guard having poor visibility of the front of the train if they are standing at the rear of the train. The usual recommendation is either for corridor linked Sprinters to be used and to use local door operation at Mouldsworth or to keep the rear unit locked out of use until Greenbank/Northwich but maybe with 2 conductors there's an alternative method?
Northern did introduce second conductors at peak times who worked Altrincham-Knutsford/Northwich only but they seem to have disappeared. They also gave G4S longer working hours at Knutsford to cover the evening peak as well when previously the RPIs at Knutsford in the morning worked at Stockport in the evening peak but RPI checks at Knutsford seem to be less common since April 1st.
WestCoast
Established Member
Well, you would think that Northern aren't going to go out of their way to protect other TOCs revenue, especially at Piccadilly where the layout dictates that you need separate groups of inspectors for each one of the main platforms. Especially not Virgin, since their "VT Only" local tickets won't earn Northern anything (barring the small commission for selling tickets) and neither is Northern going to inspect advance ticket validity.
What about ATW services that arrive/depart from platform 1-12 at Piccadilly, do Northern inspect tickets then? I can't recall either way.
However, at smaller stations served or operated by XC/Virgin, Northern can have a general manual barrier where the layout dictates. It's down to the individual location though, London Midland have the 'checkpoints' (as I call them) at Birmingham New Street, which should catch the dodgers on LM, XC and Virgin services inbound from local West Midlands stations but shouldn't hinder the longer distance travelers as they aren't gates and don't ask for advance coupons or railcards.
In other words, it's variable....
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Northern RPIs actively avoid platforms 6 and 7 even when one or more of their own services is boarding on platform 6.
I thought the 'small commission' can be as much as 10%.
A lot of TPE passengers have advance tickets but the Northern RPIs check most passengers using TPE services.
The ones arriving on the North Wales/Chester-Manchester services are checked.
Virgin and CrossCountry are perfectly capable of deploying their own RPIs if they want to, and sometimes do exactly that to check tickets - and they DO check people's advance reservations too.
Personally I don't think there's much hope for DOO-ing a pacer going from Colne to Blackpool South. That doesn't mean that having an RPI, not necessarily a guard but that would also work, in the second unit of non-gangwayed stock would be a very useful idea if they could get it on most services like this. Also I'd suggest that an extra ticket seller on Northern's EMUs at peak times would be very useful indeed as they are all rather longer than a pacer.
Personally I don't think there's much hope for DOO-ing a pacer going from Colne to Blackpool South. That doesn't mean that having an RPI, not necessarily a guard but that would also work, in the second unit of non-gangwayed stock would be a very useful idea if they could get it on most services like this. Also I'd suggest that an extra ticket seller on Northern's EMUs at peak times would be very useful indeed as they are all rather longer than a pacer.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
I really see how any of this is particularly different in the Northern franchise from the Strathclyde example given by 34D. Scotrail's level of subsidy is similar to Northern's, typical fares on Strathclyde are similarly low, and there are tunnels there too. If you're going to criticize the Strathclyde model then it would be much more convincing if you provided some relevant evidence!
It may also be that with train-mounted cameras and GSM-R the technology issue with DOO(P) is less than it used to be.
Stratchlyde don't use anything that resembles a pacer or a sprinter on DOO services do they?
The best DOO will work where the fleet is uniform, platforms are as straight as possible and the signalling and communications equipment is modern and robust. The c2c franchise area mostly met these requirements (as such, it was mostly converted). The Northern franchise area mostly does not meet them. Merseyrail is the best example I can think of where circumstances are in place that it wouldn't be too difficult to make it work.
I personally would support the model whereby every service is rostered to have a second member of staff onboard to undertake a ticket check and offer customer service, as well as whatever safety training may be deemed appropriate. I don't really agree with the FCC/LO style model at all.
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I could write another essay on the evils of DOO but I won't bother - what I will say is that rural Yorkshire and Cumbria is neither Strathclyde nor the South East (where do you draw the line), DOO-P standards have changed and it is now more expensive to implement, and no one seems to be willing to produce large investments for new trains and infrastructure investments (not to mention more money for drivers, who don't want DOO-P anyway and would therefore want a big raise to retrain and take on the extra responsibility) to call a guard a ticket examiner and have them collect a couple more £3 fares per day on lines that won't break even anyway. It is not worth the investment.
That's without the niggling concern in the back of my mind that if something kills the driver (even a scrote chucking a breezeblock off a bridge could achieve it) what do you do then. With the exception of Great Heck where the driver and guard were both killed instantly, generally the guard seems to be able to deal with situations that arise, particularly with the rigorous selection and training nowadays.
That's without the niggling concern in the back of my mind that if something kills the driver (even a scrote chucking a breezeblock off a bridge could achieve it) what do you do then. With the exception of Great Heck where the driver and guard were both killed instantly, generally the guard seems to be able to deal with situations that arise, particularly with the rigorous selection and training nowadays.
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When new, the cabs had door controls for the drivers' use
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Most of the Doncaster-Leeds have a TTI (or is it RPA) on board in addition to the guard.
There are some on the peak services, or at least there used to be when I commuted daily from South Elmsall.
Indeed so. Ken used to be a popular one (going back 10 years). I've also seen them on Leeds-Doncaster stoppers at 8/9am. RPA does front 2 coaches, guard does rear ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I suspect you don't travel at the right times.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
That is an exact description of the Strathclyde model that we are considering here.
Strathclyde runs five classes of EMU, one of which is among the oldest on the network and two of which share a bodyshell with the 150. Some of the platforms are pretty curved and while the signaling is now largely modern it wasn't when the current staffing arrangement was introduced. The situation around Manchester after electrification will be pretty similar and probably more suitable especially if they get the new units that so many people on here are claiming an entitlement to. I agree that the same model wouldn't work on the more remote parts of Northern, just as it isn't used on the more remote parts of Scotrail.
CockneySparrow
Member
Bear in mind that if you travel one way on the train there is a strong chance that you will return by train, and with single fares in most cases (walk up tickets) nearly the same price as a return the TOC will have the money out of you as the chances of you doing two trips (a return) without meeting an inspector are slim
So in fact in real terms the TOC aren't losing as much money as it appears if you look at it that way
So in fact in real terms the TOC aren't losing as much money as it appears if you look at it that way
For offpeak fares that's often true - less so for peak fares and short distances.
I live deep in Northern land - Steeton and Silsden to Leeds single is £5.30.
Off peak return is not much more at £6.50 but the peak return is £8.90 which might make bunking the fare one way seem worth it.
Obviously it's less likely people are going to do that into Leeds due to the barriers (though they may claim on the train to have come from a nearer station).
On shorter journeys towards Leeds the saving on returns are far lower.
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