Revenue Protection Inspectors at Cardiff

[ValleyLines142]

Over the past six months or so, Revenue Protection Inspectors have been present at Cardiff Central in their very bright green hi-vis jackets and to be fair to them, every time I've entered/exited the station they've been hitting someone with fares or whatever it is they collect/do.

As a daily commuter between Cardiff and Bristol, I've noticed that when I pass through the barriers on my way home at Cardiff, at about 6pm, the barriers have been set to PURPOSELY reject ANY ticket with a particular discount (i.e. 16-25 railcard, senior railcard, etc) or with a specific restriction on the ticket. As a 16-25 railcard holder myself, I personally find this quite embarrassing when your ticket gets rejected and you have to seek assistance, particularly when you have a perfectly valid ticket.

Subsequently I have to go to inspectors where they ask to see my railcard, which is a tad annoying when I've already put it in my bag having had it checked on the train already. It's also highly inconvenient when I've got my hands full with books and bags and I'm having to fumble around for my railcard.

Quite a lot of people have a railcard so it is really inconvenient when tickets are rejected in the barriers and you have to seek the assistance of an RPI; within seconds you've already got quite a long queue forming, especially at 6pm which is just as the evening rush hour is at it's peak, and believe me at Cardiff is EXTREMELY busy at this time. particularly with the rear entrance currently closed for refurbishment.

My question is, surely there must be a more efficient way of checking tickets? I've even said this to the RPIs, to which they've merely replied 'we need to do our job', which is absolutely true and I told them they're doing their job correctly, but it isn't ideal at such an hour when such events happen. I don't think they took it too well but I meant it purely as friendly advice.

On my first occasion of seeing a RPI, when he asked to see my railcard I asked him why, as my ticket was checked on the train already. He said he was from Revenue Protection and looked a bit gone off as he probably thought I wasn't cooperating, but I genuinely haven't seen them in Cardiff so I didn't know who they were and/or what they did. If your railcard has already been checked on the train, why do they need to see it?

Take this example as a purely hypothetical situation: What if my parents and I made a journey from Bristol to Cardiff, and they carried on to say, Radyr, and I left at Cardiff, but gave them my railcard so that I don't lose it, as to be fair many people would think they don't need it anymore. What would happen if I encountered an RPI at the barriers?

PS: this is not me complaining; this is just me posting my observations and wondered what other peoples views/thoughts were

 

[island]

Your discounted ticket is not valid without the relevant Railcard. The TOC is within its rights to inspect the Railcard.

 

[Haywain]

Quite a lot of people have a railcard so it is really inconvenient when tickets are rejected in the barriers and you have to seek the assistance of an RPI; within seconds you've already got quite a long queue forming, especially at 6pm which is just as the evening rush hour is at it's peak, and believe me at Cardiff is EXTREMELY busy at this time. particularly with the rear entrance currently closed for refurbishment.

Unfortunately, quite a lot of people don't have a railcard, but still try to use the discounts, so checks like this take place. This is one of the very minor penalties you have to pay for having a valid railcard. But in the great scheme of things, it's really not much campared to the money you save, is it?

 

[tony6499]

It's nice to see a TOC checking tickets properly and if it is ongoing then you'll know to keep ticket and railcard together until you've passed through the gates.

Just wish this was done by all gate lines as it would stop quite a few posts in the ticket disputes forum !!!!

 

[Clip]

Take this example as a purely hypothetical situation: What if my parents and I made a journey from Bristol to Cardiff, and they carried on to say, Radyr, and I left at Cardiff, but gave them my railcard so that I don't lose it, as to be fair many people would think they don't need it anymore. What would happen if I encountered an RPI at the barriers?

Then your ticket would be invalid.

 

[CC 72100]

Unfortunately, quite a lot of people don't have a railcard, but still try to use the discounts, so checks like this take place. This is one of the very minor penalties you have to pay for having a valid railcard. But in the great scheme of things, it's really not much campared to the money you save, is it?

This.

Think I said the same last time when you posted a similar observation - more efforts to weed out the tryers who self-entitle themselves to discounts that other people have paid for is not a bad thing in my book. Plus, I keep my ticket with my railcard anyway in the same ticket wallet, so it's never any extra effort.

 

[gswindale]

If they're there on a regular basis; then surely it makes sense to keep both your ticket & railcard easily accessible when arriving/leaving the station?

When I was a regular traveller; my railcard always sat in it's plastic wallet with the relevant ticket inside my wallet which was generally in my pocket.

Absolutely no frustration in having to dig them out that way.

I also only ever travelled with what I could fit in a standard backpack for a weekend back home - reducing the need to struggle when changing trains at places like Cardiff.

 

[plastictaffy]

Far too many passengers travel with the discount without actually carrying (or having it still in date!!) the relevant railcard. 16-25 are the usual offenders. I probably ask for the railcard that the ticket is displaying around 75% of the time. A lot depends on how busy the train is, and often, the sort of person carrying the ticket!!

 

[TEW]

This is very common in the London area where on board checks are rare. The Southern Metro barrier at Victoria for example almost never accepts a Railcard discounted ticket, and the staff and the manual gate are vigilant at checking them.

 

[plastictaffy]

and the staff and the manual gate are vigilant at checking them.

As they should be, for the reasons stated above!!!!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Your discounted ticket is not valid without the relevant Railcard. The TOC is within its rights to inspect the Railcard.

Which I am aware of, hence my point about this being done on the train.

Unfortunately, quite a lot of people don't have a railcard, but still try to use the discounts, so checks like this take place. This is one of the very minor penalties you have to pay for having a valid railcard. But in the great scheme of things, it's really not much campared to the money you save, is it?

True. It's not the end of the world but still inconvenient. It also shows that if RPIs are checking railcards too, then the on board train managers aren't checking properly, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for RPIs to check at stations either.

It's nice to see a TOC checking tickets properly and if it is ongoing then you'll know to keep ticket and railcard together until you've passed through the gates.

Which I do now, but in the past I've just taken my ticket and kept in my hand, as, in my defence, I didn't expect to show my railcard again.

Then your ticket would be invalid.

Which I would have, very unfairly, been caught out at my first sight of an RPI. Obviously I'm aware now but I think some people may be caught out and would not know about it and kick up a fuss, if they gave their railcard to someone to look after as in the example I used.

If they're there on a regular basis; then surely it makes sense to keep both your ticket & railcard easily accessible when arriving/leaving the station?

As mentioned above, this is what I do now.

I also only ever travelled with what I could fit in a standard backpack for a weekend back home - reducing the need to struggle when changing trains at places like Cardiff.

Yes but I shouldn't have to limit what I'm carrying just because of RPIs. I'm a very busy person with lots to do!

In general: interesting responses!

 

[Flamingo]

Is it Groundhog day? I'm sure we had this identical thread recently...

 

[ValleyLines142]

Is it Groundhog day? I'm sure we had this identical thread recently...

I haven't seen it.

 

[Class377]

Flamingo - the thread rang a bell for me too but can't seem to find the original, perhaps we're having collective deja vu!

My two cents in to this conversation is that when I got my railcard, I was given one of those 3-part ticket wallets which allows me to keep both parts of my railcard alongside my ticket and have it all clearly visible. I'm sure every 2-part (ticket office issue?) ones come with one of these, so perhaps online purchases should be sent with something similar? Would seem to solve the issue for me!

 

[ValleyLines142]

My two cents in to this conversation is that when I got my railcard, I was given one of those 3-part ticket wallets which allows me to keep both parts of my railcard alongside my ticket and have it all clearly visible. I'm sure every 2-part (ticket office issue?) ones come with one of these, so perhaps online purchases should be sent with something similar? Would seem to solve the issue for me!

This is what I do now with mine but previously I just took the ticket out and had nothing in my hand apart from the ticket which went through the barrier and that was it!

 

[Flamingo]

I haven't seen it.

On the subject of Revenue Protection Inspectors, I've noticed over the last six months or so that a few officers have been at Cardiff Central checking tickets, and every time I've passed through the barriers they are dealing with someone.

However, the problem is that perfectly valid tickets with a railcard discount on them have been set to purposely be rejected in the ticket barriers, so that you have to go to an RPI. This has happened to me twice or three times and it is rater humiliating. Yes they are doing their job, but on all occasions I've exited the station it has been at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, smack in the middle of rush hour. Quite a large number of people have 16-25 railcards etc, and at that time of the day congestion will inevitably build up, so it is causing massive delays having to go to the RPI. There must be a better solution.

I also did not realise that you must be in possession of your railcard until you have exited the station. This greatly irritated me when I showed my ticket to the conductor on the train, had it stamped and kept my ticket out but put my railcard away, only to have an RPI asking for my railcard when I've got my hands full with bags and when it has at that point gone right to the bottom of my bag. Personally I always thought that when you showed your railcard on the train, that was it.

Found it!

 

[CC 72100]

Found it!

Hence my "I think I said this last time..."

 

[headshot119]

The idea of blocking railcards from being accepted at both Queen Street, and Central at that time of day which I've experienced recently is nothing short of insanity and just causes chaos.

Yes I know it's in the name of revenue protection but still.

 

[gswindale]

It also shows that if RPIs are checking railcards too, then the on board train managers aren't checking properly, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for RPIs to check at stations either.

Now that is complete rubbish!

I believe some services on the Valley lines are heavily used and by the nature of the service; the guard may not be able to check tickets due to having to perform other duties.

Thus having a check at the station is the way forward.

 

[ValleyLines142]

The idea of blocking railcards from being accepted at both Queen Street, and Central at that time of day which I've experienced recently is nothing short of insanity and just causes chaos.

Yes I know it's in the name of revenue protection but still.

Agreed! Especially as there's refurbishment works currently taking place at both stations. It is ridiculous. I agree RPIs do their job perfectly, but there has to be a way of moving things quicker.

 

[Deerfold]

Which I am aware of, hence my point about this being done on the train.

If you know your ticket needs the railcard to be valid why on earth would you even think of sending it off with your parents?

Last week I caught a train from Glasgow to London. Following a change of crew there was a second full ticket inspection. I wouldn't have thought for a moment that I'd have got away with saying "but the other guard already checked me" even though I've rarely caught trains with a change of staff mid-journey.

 

[Mojo]

My question is, surely there must be a more efficient way of checking tickets?

I agree with this point. On the Underground where Revenue Inspectors are present the gateline is configured to accept the ticket/pass in the usual manner but also display a light where supporting documentation (e.g. Railcard/photocard/etc.) is required. This means that they are not creating undue congestion at the gateline, or delaying customers as much (for instance if the Inspectors are busy dealing with other customers then you pass through unimpeded). The Inspectors can also come to you rather than you having to go to them stood at the side, and it is much easier to spot and prevent those who pass through the gateline without putting any sort of ticket through whatsoever from doing so. In my opinion a much better strategy in terms of customer service, congestion control AND revenue protection!

 

[455driver]

This is what I do now with mine but previously I just took the ticket out and had nothing in my hand apart from the ticket which went through the barrier and that was it!

If it is such a major inconvenience for you to comply with the T&Cs of the Railcard may I recommend you dont use it!
That way you would only need to worry about the (full price) ticket which would be accepted by the automatic ticket barriers, therefore also saving you the walk over to the Gateline Assistant when your (currently Railcard discounted) ticket is rejected.

 

[Llanigraham]

Dan.
Your ticket may have been checked on the train, but not every passenger arriving at any of the Cardiff stations will have been done so.
Therefore how are you going to differentiate between those that have and those that haven't?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Now that is complete rubbish!

I believe some services on the Valley lines are heavily used and by the nature of the service; the guard may not be able to check tickets due to having to perform other duties.

Thus having a check at the station is the way forward.

A tad extreme, but it does make you wonder!

If you know your ticket needs the railcard to be valid why on earth would you even think of sending it off with your parents?

Last week I caught a train from Glasgow to London. Following a change of crew there was a second full ticket inspection. I wouldn't have thought for a moment that I'd have got away with saying "but the other guard already checked me" even though I've rarely caught trains with a change of staff mid-journey.

I think you may have misread my post by mistake.

I'm not referring to travelling on the train; I'm referring to exiting the station.

Let's go back to my example, which I'll try and put into better words.

My parents and I are making a journey from say, Newport to Radyr. I have a 16-25 railcard. On the train going to Cardiff, the conductor comes round and checks all of our tickets, including me showing my railcard. The conductor then marks the tickets, the job is done and that is that.

Then say I went to leave at Cardiff instead of continuing to Radyr, i.e. stopping short. I don't want to take lots of bags with me, so I just take my phone, maybe some cash and my marked ticket to exit the station, to the point where I will no longer be using the railway from this point onwards.

I would obviously have a shock if I come across a Revenue Protection Inspector asking to see my railcard when it has already been checked ON BOARD THE train, as I thought that was it.

If I ever was in such a situation in real life I obviously would keep my railcard on me until I left the station premises now as Revenue Protection are present at Cardiff.

I'm well aware of crew changes. I've caught a train from Newcastle to Bristol with THREE crew changes, with ALL THREE members of staff checking tickets.

I agree with this point. On the Underground where Revenue Inspectors are present the gateline is configured to accept the ticket/pass in the usual manner but also display a light where supporting documentation (e.g. Railcard/photocard/etc.) is required. This means that they are not creating undue congestion at the gateline, or delaying customers as much (for instance if the Inspectors are busy dealing with other customers then you pass through unimpeded). The Inspectors can also come to you rather than you having to go to them stood at the side, and it is much easier to spot and prevent those who pass through the gateline without putting any sort of ticket through whatsoever from doing so. In my opinion a much better strategy in terms of customer service, congestion control AND revenue protection!

A good point, and I think ATW's team should follow along the same lines. What's worse, is that they really don't seem to care about the fact that queues form quite quickly. I'm a busy person, who leads a busy life, with lots of people to see and lots of things to do. I'm constantly on the go; I don't have time to fanny around in queues really?

On a totally different note, but along the same principle, I work for Costa Coffee and many of our customers have drinks to take away, probably because they've got places to be too. I know they're most likely in a rush, particularly when I'm on the open in the morning and the business people come in, so I'm obviously not going to take forever to make their drink, as I respect the fact they need to be somewhere, so surely Revenue Protection should appreciate the fact that people lead busy lives, such as myself?

If it is such a major inconvenience for you to comply with the T&Cs of the Railcard may I recommend you dont use it!

Of course it's not an inconvenience; I have not ONCE failed to comply with the T&Cs and that's not the point.

I'm guessing that a railcard needs to be kept on you until you have EXITED the station, regardless of whether it's been checked on the train or not?

Dan.
Your ticket may have been checked on the train, but not every passenger arriving at any of the Cardiff stations will have been done so.
Therefore how are you going to differentiate between those that have and those that haven't?

A fair point.

 

[gswindale]

They surely are not that busy.

People need to plan better & incorporate contingency time rather than expecting everyone else to speed up.

If an extra couple of minutes queuing at the station is so catastrophic for your day then get an earlier train!

 

[Greenback]

At worst, I find it mildly irritating when there are queues at gatelines. I feel part of the problem at Cardiff Central is the narrow passageway at which the gate shave been installed. There aren't many gates, and with the number of trains arriving and departing there should be no surprise that queues build up quickly.

Yet I also understand the difficulties of ticket examination on the Valleys network. There can be double Pacer units, which means that one member of staff can't be in tow unit sat once. There are also the very busy trains and short times between stations which also makes I difficult to examine all tickets and railcards. So something needs to be done, and the seemingly permanent setting of the barriers to reject railcard tickets is a big deterrent to people buying discounted tickets without the appropriate railcard. As nice as random checks would be, they still send a message out that it's worth trying it on and hoping for the best.

 

[ValleyLines142]

They surely are not that busy.

Have you actually had this experience? If not then you won't know.

People need to plan better & incorporate contingency time rather than expecting everyone else to speed up.

That makes no sense. Even if I arrive at the station an hour before my train is due to leave there still could be a queue. Also in all of my experiences it's been when I've exited the station, so it doesn't make a blind bit of difference as to what train I get.

If an extra couple of minutes queuing at the station is so catastrophic for your day then get an earlier train!

I'm sorry, but with all due respect I don't really appreciate being told what to do. I lead my own life, I do what I want and, as a paying customer, I shouldn't have to fanny around the RPI team. Simples

Regardless of that I shouldn't have to. The moral of the story is the Revenue Protection team are too slow at their job. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the truth.

And as I mentioned above it's not a case of catching an earlier train anyway.

At worst, I find it mildly irritating when there are queues at gatelines. I feel part of the problem at Cardiff Central is the narrow passageway at which the gate shave been installed. There aren't many gates, and with the number of trains arriving and departing there should be no surprise that queues build up quickly.

Yet I also understand the difficulties of ticket examination on the Valleys network. There can be double Pacer units, which means that one member of staff can't be in tow unit sat once. There are also the very busy trains and short times between stations which also makes I difficult to examine all tickets and railcards. So something needs to be done, and the seemingly permanent setting of the barriers to reject railcard tickets is a big deterrent to people buying discounted tickets without the appropriate railcard. As nice as random checks would be, they still send a message out that it's worth trying it on and hoping for the best.

Agreed.

 

[ian959]

The moral of the story is the Revenue Protection team are too slow at their job. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the truth.

I rather think that the moral of the story is actually to be prepared when exiting any station to have ALL relevant documentation readily to hand for inspection - ticket AND railcard if you have used one to acquire said ticket. Simples...

 

[LexyBoy]

Ticket checks by people rather than machine would be an improvement. If you know you'll need to show your Railcard, you'll have it ready, and it would mean Railcards and AP reservations would get checked, and cut down on doughnutting.

At Didcot before the barriers were installed there were two members of staff checking tickets which was efficient and didn't cause much of a queue. Now there are 4 barriers, which cause longer queues in addition to the general irritation of barriers, as well as seemingly requiring at least three people to man them.

OK for Didcot the issue is not enough gates, but I maintain that for mostly Intercity stations (which would probably not include Cardiff) checks should be done by people not gates. Passengers will have piles of luggage and are likely to be less familiar with the railway (e.g. which one of their pile of tickets to use), and much more likely to be on Advances.