Northern free journeys.

[ANorthernGuard]

Also someone posted elsewhere that Northern require their guards to operate the doors from the rear of the train.

depends. if its a 4 car set you can operate the doors from the front doors of the rear unit. If its a Class 323 they can be done from the middle (Eastern Electric units I do not know the procedure, sorry)

 

[Starmill]

depends. if its a 4 car set you can operate the doors from the front doors of the rear unit. If its a Class 323 they can be done from the middle (Eastern Electric units I do not know the procedure, sorry)

I'm not a guard, but 322s definetly have panels and they use them or the cab. I don't know if 321s are fitted but I'd guess yes. 333s there are loads all the way through the train inc. passenger doors closest to cab ends, these seem to be used in preference to 333 cab door.

 

[craigwilson]

Also someone posted elsewhere that Northern require their guards to operate the doors from the rear of the train.

This is one thing that does annoy me because it also impacts on dwell time and therefore can sometimes delay the journey unnecessarily.

Why do Northern do this with their trains? Is it policy to operate like this? Having lived in Kent, where the driver opens the doors but the guard shuts and locks them (and not just from the rear either) - whether it's faster or not - it just feels slicker.

Is it a limitation of the stock?

It cannot just be down to checking the train is fully platformed, because surely the driver is able to check that, and isn't that also what stop boards are for?

 

[Starmill]

This is one thing that does annoy me because it also impacts on dwell time and therefore can sometimes delay the journey unnecessarily.

Why do Northern do this with their trains? Is it policy to operate like this? Having lived in Kent, where the driver opens the doors but the guard shuts and locks them (and not just from the rear either) - whether it's faster or not - it just feels slicker.

Is it a limitation of the stock?

It cannot just be down to checking the train is fully platformed, because surely the driver is able to check that, and isn't that also what stop boards are for?

I think it is usually down to stock, i.e. there are no door controls in the cab of a pacer (are there?).

However one also hears (and this could be garbage) that it is to do with Northern's approved methods of working and various Union functions. Word is that when Northern had the Class 180s (which are designed to have the doors released by the driver and do have controls for such in the cab) they had to be modified to allow Northern's guards to release the doors, as it was not permitted for the driver to do this.

Some stock (would I be correct in thinking all Electrostars?) doesn't have a function for the guard to open the doors.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Isn't 142s because of the presence of grabrails on the outside of the doors?

 

[reb0118]

I think operating the doors from the back stems from the Merseyrail incident at James Street , and Northern's response to it.

 

[ainsworth74]

This is my understanding also. I think it came in shortly after the RAIB report was published though on the North East side it doesn't appear to be strictly followed/enforced.

 

[MrsSundayMorn]

Yes that is correct.

 

[craigwilson]

I think operating the doors from the back stems from the Merseyrail incident at James Street , and Northern's response to it.

This is my understanding also. I think it came in shortly after the RAIB report was published though on the North East side it doesn't appear to be strictly followed/enforced.

I can understand working doors from the rear when closing them and moving off in that context, but not releasing them.

 

[Moonshot]

Just to clarify ...... doors can be released from the front of the train ( ie behind the driver cab ) IF the guard happens to be there, but cannot be despatched from there.

As it stands now, guards have the responsibilty of ensuring it is safe to despatch the train from a platform - sometimes in conjunction with platform staff. If there was to be a wholesale move to DOO operation, there would have to be a major investment in improving station platforms outside of the major stations. Never ceases to amaze me just how " 19th Century " a lot of stations on the Northern Network actually look.

 

[Bantamzen]

As it happens I was speaking to a guard about this very thing over the weekend. A few of us were trying to work out why when the guard opened the doors at the front of a 333, they then had to walk to the middle section to secure the doors & despatch the train, so we asked. And yes, it is to do with Northern policy following the tragedy at Liverpool.

What we (the guard included) couldn't figure out wa the rational. The guard can desptach the train from the rear & middle, but not the front? Can anybody explain why this is the case?

 

[dannypye9999]

Remembering that it is the duty of the passenger to seek out the guard to pay for a ticket........though if they stay locked away in the rear cab.........

Probably a good place for Northern's revenue protection team to visit, all those lovely prosecutions, or £80 'get out of court' payments..... note visit on a Sunday, seems that there may be a regular ticketless visitotr

Northerns revenue staff are too busy at Stockport protecting virgin trains and other TOCs making passengers to buy their tickets from other operators as I often see northern staff on the bottom of the stairs at Stockport. Not very good if you've come from London on a virgin train and then being made to declare your ticket to Northern staff when it wasn't even on their train you travelled on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
also on the subject of on train ticket checks, why do guards never do ticket inspections on the last two Manchester Picc to Macclesfield services at night?

 

[Moonshot]

As it happens I was speaking to a guard about this very thing over the weekend. A few of us were trying to work out why when the guard opened the doors at the front of a 333, they then had to walk to the middle section to secure the doors & despatch the train, so we asked. And yes, it is to do with Northern policy following the tragedy at Liverpool.

What we (the guard included) couldn't figure out wa the rational. The guard can desptach the train from the rear & middle, but not the front? Can anybody explain why this is the case?

One of the duties of the guard is to ensure that the signal at the end of the platform ( if there is one ) is set to a proceed aspect. This reduces the risk of a SASPAD. I would assume a risk assessment has been done for starting a train from the front and was deemed to be an excess risk owing to the fact that the guard would have his back to the signal

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northerns revenue staff are too busy at Stockport protecting virgin trains and other TOCs making passengers to buy their tickets from other operators as I often see northern staff on the bottom of the stairs at Stockport. Not very good if you've come from London on a virgin train and then being made to declare your ticket to Northern staff when it wasn't even on their train you travelled on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
also on the subject of on train ticket checks, why do guards never do ticket inspections on the last two Manchester Picc to Macclesfield services at night?

Just 2 words for you



Self Preservation!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed. I've noticed similar on just about any other non-InterCity train service I've been on post-9pm.

(I don't blame you by the way!)

 

[Starmill]

As it happens I was speaking to a guard about this very thing over the weekend. A few of us were trying to work out why when the guard opened the doors at the front of a 333, they then had to walk to the middle section to secure the doors & despatch the train, so we asked. And yes, it is to do with Northern policy following the tragedy at Liverpool.

What we (the guard included) couldn't figure out wa the rational. The guard can desptach the train from the rear & middle, but not the front? Can anybody explain why this is the case?

333s are remarkably long trains. They have longer coaches than a lot of stock (23m) and they have four coaches, which very few Northern units do! It's therefore more difficult to see the lenght of an entire 333 than you might expect, and given there are a few curved platforms about (Shipley, I'm looking at you!) you can see why being in the middle of the train is going to be necessary in some cases.

 

[northwichcat]

333s are remarkably long trains. They have longer coaches than a lot of stock (23m) and they have four coaches, which very few Northern units do! It's therefore more difficult to see the lenght of an entire 333 than you might expect, and given there are a few curved platforms about (Shipley, I'm looking at you!) you can see why being in the middle of the train is going to be necessary in some cases.

The 333s actually have 23.74m carriages so are longer than the 4 car 158 (92m) and 5 car Pacer workings on the Caldervale line (77.5m)

 

[Class377/5]

Some stock (would I be correct in thinking all Electrostars?) doesn't have a function for the guard to open the doors.

377's (and the future class 700s) have panels for the guard and Southern uses them regularly.

 

[313103]

Could you point to the posts which are 'bashing the guard'? The only post I can see from skimming the thread that even remotely come close also takes the time to point out that the guard's machine could have been broken, they might have been busy or in a different unit. Hardly 'bashing' the guard? So where is it?

Lets start with this one
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Remembering that it is the duty of the passenger to seek out the guard to pay for a ticket........though if they stay locked away in the rear cab.........

Or this one
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would only work if the guard came down the train very obviously selling tickets, otherwise there's no opportunity to pay.

Most certainly this one
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyway, aren!t Northern always making far too many announcements about not leaving bags unattended etc? Are they wanting passengers to leave their bags in one carriage whilst they wander around looking for the guard or are they expecting passengers to lug their bags around with them whilst looking for the member of staff who's hiding away from his customers?

Hmm hiding away! Generalisation at its very worse.

 

[northwichcat]

313103: I think you're interpreting posts in a way that suggests it's the guards fault rather than it saying that it is the guard faults.

For instance, "Would only work if the guard came down the train very obviously selling tickets, otherwise there's no opportunity to pay."
Where does it say it's the guard's fault?

They may not have a working ticket machine - one guard working a Mid-Cheshire service announced a few times he was unable to sell tickets due to a shortage of working ticket machines that day.

Or maybe he was phoning ahead to arrange assistance for a disabled passenger?

You're just assuming the post is implying the guard is to blame because it doesn't say the guard isn't to blame. Unless the guard indicated why tickets were not sold (like in the example I just gave) then how does the passenger know the reason?

 

[313103]

Ok so I could of read that one in a different way, I admit defeat on that. However I will say 'though if they stay locked away in the rear cab' & 'member of staff who is hiding away from his customers' is certainly implying its the Guards fault.

 

[Urban Gateline]

377's (and the future class 700s) have panels for the guard and Southern uses them regularly.

Yes but not for opening the doors as was quoted in the post you replied to! Those panels only allow the Guard to close doors, close local door and press the signal bell.

 

[Deerfold]

Hmm hiding away! Generalisation at its very worse.

A bit like criticising a thread as guard-bashing on the basis of one post?

 

[joke2711]

Perhaps this is a bit of guard bashing but I have been travelling from Wigan to Liverpool or Chester on a Sunday Evening for two years now (exception being with overhead works so its a trip to Warrington). I mush have undertaken the journey in excess of 50+ times and the times I have seen the Guard is probably still in single digits. The annoyance of this is that I can't buy my ticket routing at North Western because they wont sell it. On arrival at Lime Street the excess fare stand isn't open. Asking the person at the barrier at Lime Street causes an obstruction and at times they just suggest going to the ticket office. This means that although I often travel with heavy baggage I can't use the lift to the Merseyrail platform as I don't have a ticket. So forced to walk and buy a ticket at the Merseyrail Office and then use escalators. Often this causes a missed connection as well.

It has crossed my mind that there is a substantial amount of revenue missed and to suggest the guard doesn't have a working machine when the number of train services are probably halved doesn't seem plausible.

There are some strange ones for travelling on a Sunday Evening. Warrington Bank Quay ticket office closes before 8pm are you can only pay by card. If it is a replacement bus service to Chester they just let you travel for free!

probably get slated for this but it is how it is

 

[Starmill]

377's (and the future class 700s) have panels for the guard and Southern uses them regularly.

Yes and 378s have panels in them which are used presumably never! Doesn't mean there are any door release controls in there.

 

[Muzer]

Perhaps this is a bit of guard bashing but I have been travelling from Wigan to Liverpool or Chester on a Sunday Evening for two years now (exception being with overhead works so its a trip to Warrington). I mush have undertaken the journey in excess of 50+ times and the times I have seen the Guard is probably still in single digits. The annoyance of this is that I can't buy my ticket routing at North Western because they wont sell it. On arrival at Lime Street the excess fare stand isn't open. Asking the person at the barrier at Lime Street causes an obstruction and at times they just suggest going to the ticket office. This means that although I often travel with heavy baggage I can't use the lift to the Merseyrail platform as I don't have a ticket. So forced to walk and buy a ticket at the Merseyrail Office and then use escalators. Often this causes a missed connection as well.

It has crossed my mind that there is a substantial amount of revenue missed and to suggest the guard doesn't have a working machine when the number of train services are probably halved doesn't seem plausible.

There are some strange ones for travelling on a Sunday Evening. Warrington Bank Quay ticket office closes before 8pm are you can only pay by card. If it is a replacement bus service to Chester they just let you travel for free!

probably get slated for this but it is how it is

If it causes a missed connection that should be a valid connection (and this causes you to be late by >30/60 minutes depending on the system), claim delay repay/passenger charter compensation IMHO.

 

[313103]

A bit like criticising a thread as guard-bashing on the basis of one post?

Three Actually!

Then check the post below yours, which backs up my claim.

 

[WestCoast]

Northerns revenue staff are too busy at Stockport protecting virgin trains and other TOCs making passengers to buy their tickets from other operators as I often see northern staff on the bottom of the stairs at Stockport. Not very good if you've come from London on a virgin train and then being made to declare your ticket to Northern staff when it wasn't even on their train you travelled on.

Virgin are probably very pleased that Northern are funding revenue checks there, especially since a lot of people use Virgin services Crewe - Wilmslow - Stockport - Manchester and Stoke - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester and onboard ticket checks are less regularly carried out on these short distances. Same with London Midland's manual barrier at Birmingham New Street, although the quality of the checks there are somewhat variable.

 

[Deerfold]

Three Actually!

Then check the post below yours, which backs up my claim.

No, only TUC's post seemed to blame the guard, the others only commented on a lack of one with no implication the guard was not doing something important.

Yes, there was a second after mine, but only one before your description of the thread.

 

[dannypye9999]

Virgin are probably very pleased that Northern are funding revenue checks there, especially since a lot of people use Virgin services Crewe - Wilmslow - Stockport - Manchester and Stoke - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester and onboard ticket checks are less regularly carried out on these short distances. Same with London Midland's manual barrier at Birmingham New Street, although the quality of the checks there are somewhat variable.

Does this mean if I travel London to Stockport without a ticket and I get stopped at the barriers at Stockport I would of course be liable to pay the full standard fare which id pay with money in hand I cannot argue with that but would where would my money go seeing as Northern are selling my ticket? I hope not into their bank account.