Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[deltic08]

With regard to all the childish belly-aching about rolling stock allocations to northern services perhaps if the actual users of those services paid a more substantial portion of the operational costs as part of their rail fares, as 'southerners' do, then they to might get new vehicles directly allocated.[/QUOTE]

Read the previous posts. I have some bad news for you chum. Greater London rail users are subsidised 9x more per head than Northerners. Fact. Who do you think is paying £8billion for Thameslink and £1.7billion for trains to run on it, £17billion for Crossrail, £1billion for one mile of tube extension to Battersea and £2billion already for Crossrail2 feasibility? Northerners are without any of the benefits. We are only getting clapped out, cast off 319s to make the Thameslink project balance sheet look better as £400M on electrification+319s is cheaper than 200 new DMUs we were getting without Thameslink. Thameslink hasn't done us any favours at all.

 

[HSTEd]

Ticket prices are far higher in the South East however.
Leading to far higher farebox recovery.

And are you really ascribing zero value to the fact that trains won't be running on diesel with enormous operating costs and air pollution problems?
And it was only 200 DMU vehicles.

The North is in line for more than 200 electric vehicles as a result of Thameslink and Crossrail.
It is potentially five hundred carriages when the FCC Class 313s and the 319s are both accounted for - transfer of the entire fleet becomes practical if CP6 infill takes place in Manchester.

Is a two car DMU really worth turning your nose up at a four car EMU?

 

[DJH1971]

Ticket prices are far higher in the South East however.
Leading to far higher farebox recovery.

And are you really ascribing zero value to the fact that trains won't be running on diesel with enormous operating costs and air pollution problems?
And it was only 200 DMU vehicles.

The North is in line for more than 200 electric vehicles as a result of Thameslink and Crossrail.
It is potentially five hundred carriages when the FCC Class 313s and the 319s are both accounted for - transfer of the entire fleet becomes practical if CP6 infill takes place in Manchester.

Is a two car DMU really worth turning your nose up at a four car EMU?

Anything is better that those nodding donkeys, that's a given.

 

[Wavertreelad]

At the end of the day, the question is a 319 in an "as is" condition any better than a 142, 150 or 156 doing the same job, ie getting passengers from one place to another?

From the passengers point of view, and they are the ones that will dictate the success or otherwise of the entire scheme, will they notice the quieter ride and a few extra seats? Probably yes.

And the result ? More passengers, meaning more revenue and eventually, although it may be a while some newer stock
.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

At the end of the day, the question is a 319 in an "as is" condition any better than a 142, 150 or 156 doing the same job, ie getting passengers from one place to another?

From the passengers point of view, and they are the ones that will dictate the success or otherwise of the entire scheme, will they notice the quieter ride and a few extra seats? Probably yes.

And the result ? More passengers, meaning more revenue and eventually, although it may be a while some newer stock
.

They also have better acceleration and a higher top speed (certainly than a 142) meaning an inherent reduction in journey time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At the end of the day, the question is a 319 in an "as is" condition any better than a 142, 150 or 156 doing the same job, ie getting passengers from one place to another?

From the passengers point of view, and they are the ones that will dictate the success or otherwise of the entire scheme, will they notice the quieter ride and a few extra seats? Probably yes.

And the result ? More passengers, meaning more revenue and eventually, although it may be a while some newer stock
.

My contention all along since the news of certain Class 319 units "heading North", when the matter of "refresh or refurbish" surfaced, was the assumption made that since these were heading to a region where Class 142 Pacers formed a large part of the rolling stock in that area, that any comparison between these units would be based on the "lowest common factor" and that the rail passengers "up North" would be so inured to the paucity of internal travel modern facilities and general lack of any pleasant internal ambiance that had been carefully fostered over a very long period of time by those charged with extolling the attributes of these "railbuses", that they would welcome any such replacement Class 319 units.

"Pacer inurement syndrome" is reported to have a symptom that will cause these Northern rail travellers to demand what they see as standard fitments that ensure their "comfort zone" and will most certainly strenuously campaign for the Class 319 units to have no such modern rail fripperies as bogies and suspension systems and will demand step-access entrances, concertina doors, toilet facilities that can raise adrenaline levels and chipped internal fascias, coupled with the current standard of floor coverings, but leaving the best to the last....bus seats.hock:hock:

Do not ask for a lack of sarcasm, as a refusal often offends..

 

[Grumpy]

The North is in line for more than 200 electric vehicles as a result of Thameslink and Crossrail.
It is potentially five hundred carriages when the FCC Class 313s and the 319s are both accounted for - transfer of the entire fleet becomes practical if CP6 infill takes place in Manchester.

If the 319's and 313's are so wonderful and have years of productive life in them then why not simply leave them where they are? The 313's can continue on GN suburban services and the 319's on the Southern. You could even run them on Crossrail if you wished.

 

[petersi]

If the 319's and 313's are so wonderful and have years of productive life in them then why not simply leave them where they are? The 313's can continue on GN suburban services and the 319's on the Southern. You could even run them on Crossrail if you wished.

The 313's will be almost 42 years old when they are replaced. The most likely outcome is they will be retired as they do not have Passenger information system installed etc so extension beyond 2019 may well be uneconomic.

 

[deltic08]

Ticket prices are far higher in the South East however. Leading to far higher farebox recovery.

Exactly, because you keep getting £Billions of investment and new trains that the North is not getting.

And are you really ascribing zero value to the fact that trains won't be running on diesel with enormous operating costs and air pollution problems?
And it was only 200 DMU vehicles.

Are we supposed to be grateful for morsels of cast-off electric crap?

The North is in line for more than 200 electric vehicles as a result of Thameslink and Crossrail.

As I said, without £Billions of investment in London, partly paid for by Northerners, Londoners would still be stuck with 319s.

It is potentially five hundred carriages when the FCC Class 313s and the 319s are both accounted for - transfer of the entire fleet becomes practical if CP6 infill takes place in Manchester.

Wait a minute, we draw the line at your crappy 313s as well and don't be so bloody patronising.

Is a two car DMU really worth turning your nose up at a four car EMU?

YES if they are new and without the stench of Southern arrogance.

 

[snowball]

This is supposed to be the infrastructure forum. For those who wish to complain about trains, there's a traction & rolling stock forum and a railway discussion forum.

 

[Emyr]

The progress on the infrastructure is going so well we can't help but anticipate its application.

With dread.

 

[Olaf]

Time moves on, but the wording in the original Adonis "Britain’s Transport Infrastructure Rail Electrification" paper included this:



It seems to have been written as a DfT statement of intention at that time...

I think that was a re-election political statement not an agreed policy nor a contractual commitment. I think Northern declined the expenditure on refurbishment due to the imminent end of contract, so I expect it will be own to the new franchisee an the leasing company.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also I've never understood why people use this argument since the subsidy will pay for part of the price and the user will pay the other part so care to explain your logic?

The reason is that the subsidy comes from the tax payer not the user of the service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This attitude ****es me off immensely. Do you think all fares around here are good value?

Have you seen how much it is from Leeds to York? It's only 25 miles. Or any of the fares to or from Hull or Scarborough.

Leeds to Liverpool? Doncaster to York? Crewe to Preston? All of these are shocking poor value per mile.

Harrogate to York is only 20 miles it doesn't have many trains and all of them are in a pretty horrible condition (unless a 158 turns up) it's still nearly £10.

It's not a matter of value, the problem is that the revenue on provincial services is not substantial so these services are subsidized to the order of 60% or more. The allocated resources are pretty much appropriate and should be sufficient at that level of income.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With regard to all the childish belly-aching about rolling stock allocations to northern services perhaps if the actual users of those services paid a more substantial portion of the operational costs as part of their rail fares, as 'southerners' do, then they to might get new vehicles directly allocated.

Read the previous posts. I have some bad news for you chum. Greater London rail users are subsidised 9x more per head than Northerners. Fact. Who do you think is paying £8billion for Thameslink and £1.7billion for trains to run on it, £17billion for Crossrail, £1billion for one mile of tube extension to Battersea and £2billion already for Crossrail2 feasibility? Northerners are without any of the benefits. We are only getting clapped out, cast off 319s to make the Thameslink project balance sheet look better as £400M on electrification+319s is cheaper than 200 new DMUs we were getting without Thameslink. Thameslink hasn't done us any favours at all.

Operational costs of rail services in London and South East are pretty much close to break even; two to three years ago the gap was down to under £600M pa.

As to the capital projects above, a more than substantial proportion of the funding comes from local taxes on the public and businesses. In addition, the London and South East regions provide a significant contribution towards the on-going funding of both provincial services and capital investments, something which the provinces are not doing.

As to the 319s, 'southerners' having been getting by without too much problem, so that makes them goo enough for 'northerners' even if they think they are more deserving.

 

[DavidL]

Just to update on static infrastructure: the Liverpool-bound line in the Garswood area is also now wired (catenary and contact).
Looks like they've done both in one sitting this time; previously there was a few days after the catenary getting strung up.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just to update on static infrastructure: the Liverpool-bound line in the Garswood area is also now wired (catenary and contact).
Looks like they've done both in one sitting this time; previously there was a few days after the catenary getting strung up.

Just to add to that, there are 3 sections of full OHLE up on the Wigan line.
Both tracks through Garswood are wired up for about a mile to the west, and there is a third section to the east of Bryn on the Up.
Some of it is still obviously in a temporary state, not attached to droppers.
A new short bit of return wire is up west of Prescot on the Up.
It seems the Wigan branch is not being kitted out for autotransformer operation, and there is no resignalling or other route improvements going on.

Edit: This means it will remain a 60mph route (with an extended stretch of 30mph either side of St Helens Central).

 

[LDECRexile]

... and there is no resignalling or other route improvements going on.

I believe Huyton to St Helens was resignalled and Prescot signalbox was abolished as part of preliminary work before electrification work "proper" got under way.

That said, I know of no line speed improvements either by signalling or track layout in hand or in plan, apart from a little bit at the Huyton Junction end when the 3- and subsequent 4-tracking take place.

Does anyone know different?

 

[HSTEd]

If the 319's and 313's are so wonderful and have years of productive life in them then why not simply leave them where they are? The 313's can continue on GN suburban services and the 319's on the Southern. You could even run them on Crossrail if you wished.

As this has now gone insanely off topic this will my last post here on this.
The 319s cannot run on Thameslink after the completion of the upgrade programme as they have no provision for the fitment of ATO and any attempt to do so would likely cost a huge amount and require basically replacing the ends of every set. Attempting to run them on the southern is also a bad idea as that would add yet another fleet to the TSGN unit zoo for no reason - the fleet is too small to replace the Class 377s there but is big enough to make a major contribution of to the Northern unit shortage.

The Class 313s are also unlikely to cope with the more intensive operations that with characterise the GN in the post Thameslink environment. They are not really up to modern EMU specs in the acceleration game but will still thrash Pacers and Sprinters.

This is not a binary choice - they can have years of productive life in them when most of them will only serve as peak extras on relatively unthrashed diagrams like the Picadilly-Rose Hill Marple service but not be able to cope with the intensive operations of the GN route.

And good luck running these trains on Crossrail when they have all the doors in the wrong positions and aren't ten cars long.
Sort of a big problem with that proposition.

 

[Grumpy]

"Attempting to run them on the southern is also a bad idea as that would add yet another fleet to the TSGN unit zoo for no reason"

Yes it must be really difficult for Southern having to cope with such a diverse fleet-171/313/377/442/455 and you couldn't expect them to take on another type, the poor dears. Northern meanwhile have to cope with 142/144/150/153/155/156/158/321/322/323/333

" the fleet is too small to replace the Class 377s"
Nobody said it would

"The Class 313s are also unlikely to cope with the more intensive operations that with characterise the GN in the post Thameslink environment."

Bull

"This is not a binary choice - they can have years of productive life in them when most of them will only serve as peak extras "

Absolutely, so leave them down south as peak extras
.

 

[Class377/5]

Read the previous posts. I have some bad news for you chum. Greater London rail users are subsidised 9x more per head than Northerners. Fact. Who do you think is paying £8billion for Thameslink and £1.7billion for trains to run on it, £17billion for Crossrail, £1billion for one mile of tube extension to Battersea and £2billion already for Crossrail2 feasibility? Northerners are without any of the benefits. We are only getting clapped out, cast off 319s to make the Thameslink project balance sheet look better as £400M on electrification+319s is cheaper than 200 new DMUs we were getting without Thameslink. Thameslink hasn't done us any favours at all.

While your general point is correct you need actual facts as its way off in some areas.

• Thameslink is costing £6.5bn including the trains
• Crossrail is costing £16bn including trains and only a 3rd of that is from central sources (rest is taxes in London and loans based on future ticket sales, development etc)
• Crossrail 2 feasability was £2m to work out just how much could be paid for by just London/SE

Note the £400m for NW wires doesn't the cost of trains. The basic issue is Northern's direct award requires £1m per day to keep ticket prices where they are now. This is a reduction on the franchise. The basic issue that still has yet to be properly addressed is how do you go from this situation to one where the franchise can afford to supply better rolling stock and deal with passenger numbers.

Although maybe this thread needs sorting by a mod to keep it just for the intrastructure stuff rather than just another north/south fight that we seem to get so regularly.

 

[Manchester77]

"Attempting to run them on the southern is also a bad idea as that would add yet another fleet to the TSGN unit zoo for no reason"

Yes it must be really difficult for Southern having to cope with such a diverse fleet-171/313/377/442/455 and you couldn't expect them to take on another type, the poor dears. Northern meanwhile have to cope with 142/144/150/153/155/156/158/321/322/323/333

Oh dear, firstly as a northerner I'd like the state that user Grumpy's views do not represent every northerner! Southerns fleet is akin to northerns though with 377s and 455s on most services (so pacers and sprinters) with the other units being used on other services such as 323s on west side electric duties.

" the fleet is too small to replace the Class 377s"
Nobody said it would

You kind of implied it in stating the 319s would be better off on Southern with 377s coming up here.

"The Class 313s are also unlikely to cope with the more intensive operations that with characterise the GN in the post Thameslink environment."

Bull

Evidence please? Can you prove a 40+ year old EMU can operate along the soon to be ERTMS fitted southern ECML without hindering line capacity?

 

[8A Rail]

...... maybe this thread needs sorting by a mod to keep it just for the intrastructure stuff rather than just another north/south fight that we seem to get so regularly.

Yes definitely otherwise people just lose interest and I for one is about too and wont bother contributing to any infrastructure update's as and when. Sorry!

 

[petersi]

Yes definitely otherwise people just lose interest and I for one is about too and wont bother contributing to any infrastructure update's as and when. Sorry!

Please keep the infrastructure updates as even though I live in the south I am interested in how the project is progressing

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[kevconnor]

Yes definitely otherwise people just lose interest and I for one is about too and wont bother contributing to any infrastructure update's as and when. Sorry!

To vere the conversation back closer towards the infrastructure side, can I ask did I read previously a mention that the track layout or signalling may need to be modernised at Liverpool Lime Street, if so what is needed/planned?

 

[8A Rail]

To vere the conversation back closer towards the infrastructure side, can I ask did I read previously a mention that the track layout or signalling may need to be modernised at Liverpool Lime Street, if so what is needed/planned?

This was the original thread about this very subject, has been quiet of late - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=90865 HTH.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes it must be really difficult for Southern having to cope with such a diverse fleet-171/313/377/442/455 and you couldn't expect them to take on another type, the poor dears. Northern meanwhile have to cope with 142/144/150/153/155/156/158/321/322/323/333

Considering that the 142/144/150/153/155/156/158s were all built to be as interoperable asp ossible and the 153s and 155s are mechnically the same thing this is not as bad as it sounds (142/144s are similar I think) this is not really that bad.
You have Pacers, Sprinters, and three EMU types (as 321s and 322s are almost identical).
So five.

Compare this to TSGN - which has examples of pretty much every EMU family in modern British history.
1. 442s are a cross between modern stock and Mk 1 derived EMUs.
2. 313s are PEP series EMUs
3. 317s/317s/319s/321s are Mk 3 series AC EMUs
4. 365s are Networkers
5. 377s are Electrostars
6. Class 455/456s are Mk 3 series DC EMUs of very different construction to the AC units.
7. 171s are turbostars
8. Class 458s

The list adds up - most of the Southern units cannot even interoperate with one and other while the entire Northern DMU fleet is completely interoperable (indeed that was the point of Sprinterisation in the first place).

" the fleet is too small to replace the Class 377s"
Nobody said it would

Which means we are duplicating maintenance resources by splitting the Class 377 fleet to allow the 319s to stay in the south.
Are you prepared to pay for the increased costs of this?

Bull

Saying that doesn't make it true.

Absolutely, so leave them down south as peak extras

So you want peak extras that can't work in multiple with the regular daytime rolling stock, have massively different performance characteristics, can't take the same types of spares, nor be operated on the same training set as the normal daytime service.

That sounds like a very good idea doesn't it?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I think the refurbed 458s can work with 450s and 444s but not in service. Most classes of Desiro will work with each other, the new city ones have got the coupler the other way up but it must be possible to modify the couplers on the older ones

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Posters are now up advertising this 9-day blockade, and the details are on the NRE site.
The block extends from Edge Hill to St Helens Central/Junction throughout, to Earlestown at weekends, and to Wigan on the second weekend.
It also means there are no trains Ordsall Lane-Victoria on the Sundays.

This is not quite how it was originally described, so maybe the work plan has changed.
Four days does not seem enough to fit masts to Sankey Viaduct.
Looking at the setup yesterday it also seems a tall order to remodel the Roby-Huyton area and bring the new Up Fast and P3 platform faces into service.
Will they need a second block to commission the new layout?
Nevertheless, some very big machinery is being assembled for the job.
The block to Wigan suggests something significant is planned between St Helens and Wigan on the second weekend.

 

[OxtedL]

What sort of journey time improvement are we expecting to see eventually for Liverpool-Preston trains?

I've looked in all the usual places for a figure, but can't find one.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What sort of journey time improvement are we expecting to see eventually for Liverpool-Preston trains?
I've looked in all the usual places for a figure, but can't find one.

A class 319 should be able to knock about 7-8 minutes off the all-stations Liverpool-Wigan service, and maybe 4-5 off the Wigan-Preston times.
Liverpool-Preston-Blackpool service is mostly run as a limited stop service and will be limited by the 60mph line speed, so not much more than 5-6 minutes perhaps (and not starting till 2016).
The best gains will be on the Manchester/Warrington stoppers which will benefit from some 90mph sections east of St Helens Jn, as well as the faster stop/starts.
The slow approach to Lime St (2 miles of 30mph from Olive Mount, usually with signal checks) won't change, unfortunately.
Outbound it's a bit faster (40mph) and the 319s should make mincemeat of the climb to Edge Hill, currently a rather noisy affair in a DMU in the confines of the tunnel/cutting.

 

[muddythefish]

Is a two car DMU really worth turning your nose up at a four car EMU?

Of course not, but why should the north be so eternally grateful (doffs cap and touches forelock) for the clapped out remnants no longer seen as fit for purpose in the south ?

 

[HSTEd]

Of course not, but why should the north be so eternally grateful (doffs cap and touches forelock) for the clapped out remnants no longer seen as fit for purpose in the south ?

I don't expect them to be grateful, I expect them not to turn their noses up at it and endlessly bellyache about how hard done by they are.