Railcard discount on board the train

[yorks808]

Yesterday I travelled with N0rthern R@il. I travelled to the station by public transport and that was running late so I only just got to the station in time to catch the train so didn't have time to go over the road bridge to the other side to get a ticket.
The conductor charged me for an anytime day rtn ticket (it was Saturday), with no railcard discount. First time this had EVER happened. I've always had railcard discount whenever I buy on board Northern Rail services. Conductor was rude and would not give me his name when I asked him.
It would have taken me at least 10 mins to go over, buy ticket and come back over, by then the train would have been long gone. Tried explaining this to conductor, he was having none of it. At my departure station both the self serve machine and ticket office are on the other side of the line, on the other platform, and this is only accessible by going back to the roadside, crossing over the road bridge and going down the pathway to access the platform.

Should I have been charged full fare? Or railcard discounted fare?
It was only last week when I bought a ticket on board, same route line (different conductor, young ish fella) and he charged me the discounted fare.

There were 2 other passengers sat in close vicinity of me travelling from same station, the conductor charged them a cheaper Duo ticket instead of 2 separate return tickets; why could the conductor not do the same for me, charge me for discounted railcard fare instead of anytime day rtn?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Technically you should've been charged full anytime fare without discounts. As should the couple who got the Duo discount.

 

[tsr]

The train company is generally under no obligation to act on the basis of what you did before you got to the station, in terms of how you got there, any delays en-route on another mode of transport (unless extremely severe, in which case they may have internal policies about missing booked trains / connections) and how much time you left to buy a ticket. If you had an opportunity to buy, even if that meant missing a train, that's where you should have obtained a discounted ticket. That said, if it is verifiable that the roads were unusually busy (such as a message passed to Control from staff in the area, or an observation of a local road by the train crew) or if you give a good explanation, your situation might be looked on more favourably - or staff may be especially diligent in avoiding an argument and may sell a discounted ticket for the sake of that.

I have been offered a discounted ticket before in reasonably similar circumstances, when strictly speaking I should have been charged the full fare, admittedly with other TOCs. In these situations, I have been caught up in traffic and then presented with a long ticket office queue, with no suitable option available from the TVMs, shortly before an hourly departure (in the cases I recall). To work around this, I have actively sought out the guard before dispatch and/or as soon as I have boarded, then explaining the full situation and apologising for the hassle. Fortunately, this has always been acceptable, but it has pretty much always been up to staff discretion, and could even be seen as a breach of Byelaws if they were less favourable. Therefore, I am extremely cautious to only take such steps when they are the last resort.

Regrettably, much of the Northern Rail operating area is not blessed with very frequent services, and coupled with what appears to be a general local perception that tickets may always be purchased on board regardless of any other facilities, this can seem (to me) to mean fewer people act in accordance with regulations and laws stipulating purchase of a ticket must be completed at the first opportunity. I can entirely see that infrequent services result in long waiting times if they are missed, and that it's pretty unreasonable to always refuse discretion if this would be the case, but if it's anything under a 20 minute wait for the next train, for example, then I would be very cautious to commend any local custom or rule of thumb which seems to imply you can just always buy on board. In the OP's case, it seems discretion may have been relied upon on too many occasions, but without knowing the local service frequency, I wouldn't like to comment on the real-world practicalities of this.

As for selling a Duo ticket, I am not sure how this is viewed by Northern Rail policies, in terms of whether or not it can be bought on board where facilities may have been previously on hand for purchase. Perhaps, for example, a ticket machine at the station may not have sold Duo tickets but would almost certainly have sold Railcard-discounted ones, thus effectively halving the facilities for the couple who bought onboard. If so, it would seem somewhat more reasonable for a Duo ticket to be bought on the train.

 

[Darandio]

There were 2 other passengers sat in close vicinity of me travelling from same station, the conductor charged them a cheaper Duo ticket instead of 2 separate return tickets; why could the conductor not do the same for me, charge me for discounted railcard fare instead of anytime day rtn?

Already mentioned in the previous post but for clarity, many TVM's won't issue Duo tickets.

 

[yorks808]

The train company is generally under no obligation to act on the basis of what you did before you got to the station, in terms of how you got there, any delays en-route on another mode of transport (unless extremely severe, in which case they may have internal policies about missing booked trains / connections) and how much time you left to buy a ticket. If you had an opportunity to buy, even if that meant missing a train, that's where you should have obtained a discounted ticket. That said, if it is verifiable that the roads were unusually busy (such as a message passed to Control from staff in the area, or an observation of a local road by the train crew) or if you give a good explanation, your situation might be looked on more favourably - or staff may be especially diligent in avoiding an argument and may sell a discounted ticket for the sake of that.

I have been offered a discounted ticket before in reasonably similar circumstances, when strictly speaking I should have been charged the full fare, admittedly with other TOCs. In these situations, I have been caught up in traffic and then presented with a long ticket office queue, with no suitable option available from the TVMs, shortly before an hourly departure (in the cases I recall). To work around this, I have actively sought out the guard before dispatch and/or as soon as I have boarded, then explaining the full situation and apologising for the hassle. Fortunately, this has always been acceptable, but it has pretty much always been up to staff discretion, and could even be seen as a breach of Byelaws if they were less favourable. Therefore, I am extremely cautious to only take such steps when they are the last resort.

Regrettably, much of the Northern Rail operating area is not blessed with very frequent services, and coupled with what appears to be a general local perception that tickets may always be purchased on board regardless of any other facilities, this can seem (to me) to mean fewer people act in accordance with regulations and laws stipulating purchase of a ticket must be completed at the first opportunity. I can entirely see that infrequent services result in long waiting times if they are missed, and that it's pretty unreasonable to always refuse discretion if this would be the case, but if it's anything under a 20 minute wait for the next train, for example, then I would be very cautious to commend any local custom or rule of thumb which seems to imply you can just always buy on board. In the OP's case, it seems discretion may have been relied upon on too many occasions, but without knowing the local service frequency, I wouldn't like to comment on the real-world practicalities of this.

As for selling a Duo ticket, I am not sure how this is viewed by Northern Rail policies, in terms of whether or not it can be bought on board where facilities may have been previously on hand for purchase. Perhaps, for example, a ticket machine at the station may not have sold Duo tickets but would almost certainly have sold Railcard-discounted ones, thus effectively halving the facilities for the couple who bought onboard. If so, it would seem somewhat more reasonable for a Duo ticket to be bought on the train.

Many thanks for your reply. Facilities were available by way of self service machine/ticket office before hand for the Duo ticket passengers.

Going over the bridge to buy a ticket would have meant me missing the train and being late for work so that wasn't an option. The conductor was most rude and just seemed intent on getting maximum fare from me. He had no customer service skills at all, I asked him for his name, he refused to give me. His manner in which he spoke was abrupt and horrific to say the least. In such a public job where dealing with passengers no one should have to be spoken to like I did. In my workplace we pride ourselves on giving excellent customer service (I don't work for Northern Rail).

The service Northern Rail provide on that line is less than satisfactory. On my outward journey the train is usually on time or 1 or 2 mins late. The inward journey is always up to 5 or maybe more minutes late. Only a handful of my inward journeys have left the station on time.

Northern Rail don't do Advance tickets on this line, or on the vast majority of their routes, but that conversation is best left for another day.

Already mentioned in the previous post but for clarity, many TVM's won't issue Duo tickets.

There was an open ticket office too.

 

[Squaddie]

How frequent is the bus that you caught to the station? And how late was it on that day?

 

[yorks808]

Every hour. It was running roughly 15 mins late.
Buses where I live don't run too frequently!

 

[kareeosman]

Going over the bridge to buy a ticket would have meant me missing the train and being late for work so that wasn't an option.

The option is a personal option. Sadly the rules do not take personal circumastances into account.

Ticket facilites were available.

 

[yorkie]

...At my departure station both the self serve machine and ticket office are on the other side of the line, on the other platform, and this is only accessible by going back to the roadside, crossing over the road bridge and going down the pathway to access the platform. ...

This is not uncommon. Guide Bridge is an example of this layout.

Northern Rail can inconvenience passengers by requiring them to spend a lot of time before the train purchasing tickets, and if passengers do not do not adhere to this requirement, Northern Rail can instruct their Guards to issue only full fare tickets. They have also been known to issue "failure to pay" notices, and even, in some rare cases, to ask for £80 to keep the matter out of court.

If you feel that passengers should be entitled to buy discounted tickets on-board, due to the inconvenience of walking a long way round, and back again, I would recommend you contact both your MP and Passenger Focus. The latter are unlikely to do much though!

Let us know what response you get.

 

[yorks808]

The rules never do take into account personal circumstances into account, train operating companies NEVER take into account personal circumstances. They're only there for their own benefit, not for the benefit of paying passengers.
I paid full fare yesterday, the return journey was delayed (Northern Rail running their services late, again). The departure board at the station continues to say the train is running on time! Amazing isn't it.
It really is all for the benefit of the train operating companies isn't it. You pay the train fare, we run services whenever.



There's a saying I have for late trains: 'The day I arrive to the station a fraction late, the train runs on time. The days when I arrive in good time for the train, it's always delayed (95% of the time)'.

 

[yorkie]

The rules never do take into account personal circumstances into account, train operating companies NEVER take into account personal circumstances. They're only there for their own benefit, not for the benefit of paying passengers.

That isn't true.

I paid full fare yesterday, the return journey was delayed (Northern Rail running their services late, again). The departure board at the station continues to say the train is running on time! Amazing isn't it.
It really is all for the benefit of the train operating companies isn't it. You pay the train fare, we run services whenever.

What train was this? I'll look into it.

There's a saying I have for late trains: 'The day I arrive to the station a fraction late, the train runs on time. The days when I arrive in good time for the train, it's always delayed (95% of the time)'.

Are you going to write to your MP & Passenger Focus? I'm happy to proof read a letter...

If not, then I think you just have to resign yourself to allowing the extra time or using a different mode of transport (or accept the Anytime policy may be enforced).

 

[ASharpe]

Does the ticket machine accept cash payments?

Many Northern machines do not and and some people would say that if you wanted to pay by cash that you did not have an opportunity to pay before travel.

This may be of use for future journeys.

 

[tsr]

If the ticket office was open (it was, in the OP's situation), it is abundantly likely they would accept cash payments, and should in theory also be able to deal with all the other methods of payment you can use.

I am interested to hear that Northern TVMs cannot supply Duo tickets. I wonder if there is a technical reason for this, or if it is for some reason related to misusing any conditions.

Lastly, yorks808 it would be great to know how frequently the trains of interest to you run from the station where you boarded. This may or may not give some clues pointing to the reason for the conductor's actions.

 

[455driver]

If the OP didn't go over the bridge how can they be 100% certain the ticket office was open?

As for all the "the conductor was rude" rubbish, do you actually mean "the conductor wouldn't give me what I wanted even though I wasn't entitled to the discount on the train"!

 

[Haywain]

Sounds to me like the OP should be complaining to the bus company for being late, rather than Northern for being on time.

 

[Moonshot]

This thread just highlights just how damn stupid the whole ticket sale scenario is. If there is one area where the industry shoots itself in the foot , then this is it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The conductor was most rude and just seemed intent on getting maximum fare from me. He had no customer service skills at all

"The conductor didn't give me what I wanted so I'm going to slag him off."

There, fixed that for you.

 

[455driver]

"The conductor didn't give me what I wanted so I'm going to slag him off."

There, fixed that for you.

Too late, see post 15.

 

[Chapeltom]

The whole thing smacks of the OP wanting a good moan because one guard decided to follow proper proceedures. Had this been a situation where the guard was unable to get to the passenger and the OP landed at a station with barriers - manned or automatic, I'm sure they'd have had their details taken. Whilst it seems an unfortunate set of circumstances, it is not Northern's fault that the OP cannot get to the station in time. The onus is on the passenger to buy before boarding.

There is inconsistency with Northern's guards, giving discounted fares when they should charge the full fare and this needs to be addressed by Northern. There needs to be consistency and a vigorous advertising campaign to follow, stating what will happen if you board at a station with facilities. It needs a culture change, because whatever Northern are doing now, it doesn't seem to be sinking in. I have seen a passenger get very annoyed to the point I thought he was going to turn violent as a guard tried to charge him full think it was £2 more than the usual fare, he'd got on at Manchester Picc and we will all agree, no excuses, ever for getting on there without a ticket! I have seen on TPE a passenger board at Manchester Picc and the revenue inspector explained to the passenger, pointed out the notice with the extracts from the Conditions of Carriage and the passenger paid, albeit reluctantly, accepting their error.

 

[Moonshot]

The whole thing smacks of the OP wanting a good moan because one guard decided to follow proper proceedures. Had this been a situation where the guard was unable to get to the passenger and the OP landed at a station with barriers - manned or automatic, I'm sure they'd have had their details taken. Whilst it seems an unfortunate set of circumstances, it is not Northern's fault that the OP cannot get to the station in time. The onus is on the passenger to buy before boarding.

There is inconsistency with Northern's guards, giving discounted fares when they should charge the full fare and this needs to be addressed by Northern. There needs to be consistency and a vigorous advertising campaign to follow, stating what will happen if you board at a station with facilities. It needs a culture change, because whatever Northern are doing now, it doesn't seem to be sinking in. I have seen a passenger get very annoyed to the point I thought he was going to turn violent as a guard tried to charge him full think it was £2 more than the usual fare, he'd got on at Manchester Picc and we will all agree, no excuses, ever for getting on there without a ticket! I have seen on TPE a passenger board at Manchester Picc and the revenue inspector explained to the passenger, pointed out the notice with the extracts from the Conditions of Carriage and the passenger paid, albeit reluctantly, accepting their error.

The only trouble I see in the above is that sometimes we get E mails from Control saying that a ticket office is unable to issue tickets for whatever reason and guards should issue the full range of fares. ( there have already been 3 such e mails today for different stations ). Of course that is then reliant on a guard reading such mail, which when working a train may be some time later.

As I have said a few times now, the whole scenario of ticket sales is absurdly complicated.............the whole system needs stripping right back to absolute basics.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I am interested to hear that Northern TVMs cannot supply Duo tickets. I wonder if there is a technical reason for this, or if it is for some reason related to misusing any conditions....

On the ticket office ticket machines (and online journey planners I think) you have to enter two adults to be able to get the duo fares, I'm not certain if TVMs have this facility.

 

[Squaddie]

The whole thing smacks of the OP wanting a good moan because one guard decided to follow proper proceedures.

To be fair, many passengers probably believe (quite reasonably) that the full range of tickets is available to buy on board the train because so many guards will quite happily sell them. The rail industry has to accept some responsibility for sending out mixed messages to its customers.

 

[Darandio]

On the ticket office ticket machines (and online journey planners I think) you have to enter two adults to be able to get the duo fares, I'm not certain if TVMs have this facility.

Certainly none of the ones round my way will issue a Duo.

 

[tsr]

On the ticket office ticket machines (and online journey planners I think) you have to enter two adults to be able to get the duo fares, I'm not certain if TVMs have this facility.

I'm not sure about those operated by Northern, but many TVMs in the South of England certainly have options for selecting multiple adult and child customers for a given ticket selection.

I suspect the issue lies in the application of a discount for exactly two passengers requiring a Duo ticket, but I fail to see why it should be particularly hard to program prompts & options for something that simple (on the scale of things).

 

[Chapeltom]

To be fair, many passengers probably believe (quite reasonably) that the full range of tickets is available to buy on board the train because so many guards will quite happily sell them. The rail industry has to accept some responsibility for sending out mixed messages to its customers.

I would not doubt for one second as a regular train user that the industry does seem to send out mixed messages. I know several stations, Dore & Totley and Levenshulme are two, where 'customers' (I'm talking chancers here) jump on at Sheffield/Manchester Picc respectively knowing they are only going 6-7 minutes to the first stop and waiting for the guard. Dore is an annoying one, as it turns out at least 3 or 4 want to buy a ticket to Dore. There is no excuse. Its not a rural outpost and there are plenty of buses, but then again there is no chance of getting on a bus with the off chance of not having to pay anything.

When guards sell on board from stations that have facilities, they really should advice the passengers that it is buy you board. Maybe RPI checks should start popping up at places like Dore... I know there are inspections at Levenshulme on occasion which is staffed part time anyway! Dore only has a card only machine. I think somewhere like Meadowhall should have an RPI presence in the day, they'd pay for themselves very easily.

 

[marcouk2]

Even on the Train, Northern still give mixed messages. Poster spotted on a 144 iirc last weekend simply stated that the guard would sell tickets on board but a similar poster seen on a 158 states: (They will...) sell you a ticket if you joined us at an unstaffed station.

 

[Deerfold]

As I have said a few times now, the whole scenario of ticket sales is absurdly complicated.............the whole system needs stripping right back to absolute basics.

Not sure what you mean by that - what do you propose to change?

 

[Merseysider]

As I have said a few times now, the whole scenario of ticket sales is absurdly complicated.............the whole system needs stripping right back to absolute basics.

Surely the system is simple enough already? If you're entitled to a discount, and want that discount, buy before boarding (where possible) or you lose that entitlement on the train.

If facilities exist to purchase a ticket (not going into the whole card only argument here) then buy before boarding or you're actually in breach of Byelaws.

Granted, the definitions of off-peak vary wildly and this is one area that needs greater simplification. But other than that I can't see how ticket sales could be described as absurdly complicated?

 

[Moonshot]

Surely the system is simple enough already? If you're entitled to a discount, and want that discount, buy before boarding (where possible) or you lose that entitlement on the train.

If facilities exist to purchase a ticket (not going into the whole card only argument here) then buy before boarding or you're actually in breach of Byelaws.

Granted, the definitions of off-peak vary wildly and this is one area that needs greater simplification. But other than that I can't see how ticket sales could be described as absurdly complicated?

The fact that the top poster on this forum is in fact the Fares Advisor with over 23000 posts speaks volumes!!!

I could spend a week on this topic but lets start with something simple.

There are currently 5 types of National Railcard which cater for a cross section of the population........the only ones that are not catered for are single travellers between the ages of 25 and 65.

I would suggest we get rid of all current railcards, and replace them with 1 single one which entitles the traveller to 33% off fares after 9.30pm....the cost of the card to be the same at £30.

As you point out , off peak should be the same everywhere - ie after 9.30am

 

[swt_passenger]

As you point out , off peak should be the same everywhere - ie after 9.30am

Why - to make it easier for staff?

Loadings are not the same everywhere, 0930 is not a natural cut-off point right across the country - so that's why off-peak day return fares into Waterloo from Southampton become available at about 0830...