Future locomotives / multiple units for the national collection

[Manchester77]

I was thinking about future withdrawals which led me to the question of what units we think will be entering the national collection over the next 10 years. There's the obvious of at least one HST power car although i wouldn't be surprised if a few mark IIIs make their way into the collection too. I'd guess we will take a 90, 91 and 92 when they start to be withdrawn since most if not all AC electrics have been entered into the collection.

Multiple unit wise I wonder if any pacers will find their way into the collection? I'd guess 150001 will be preserved since it's the pioneer sprinter which led to the sprinterisation of regional railways.

Any other opinions etc?

 

[Bill Stanier]

Some that should be ritually burned rather than joining the National Collection are all pacers and all sprinters... Truly awful things that don't deserve the title of 'trains'. Oh, and a bit down the line yet for preservation, the no-excuse-to-be-so-ugly class 70.

 

[Boothby97]

I'd guess we will take a 90, 91 and 92 when they start to be withdrawn since most if not all AC electrics have been entered into the collection.

There's only 84001 and 87001 in the national collection, that's not most/all.

 

[yorksrob]

Some that should be ritually burned rather than joining the National Collection are all pacers and all sprinters... Truly awful things that don't deserve the title of 'trains'. Oh, and a bit down the line yet for preservation, the no-excuse-to-be-so-ugly class 70.

I rather like sprinters. The 156's in particular are superb units and one of these should certainly be preserved owing to their role in the renaissance of the Regional Railway. I even find myself liking 144's as well and would happily travel on some of them in preservation.

Sadly, I have little faith in the authorities ability to decide what should go in to the national collection since EPB 5001 went for scrap.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If it's not already part of the national collection, they've got to add the protype HST

 

[ac6000cw]

The national collection should contain items that are historically significant in the evolution of UK railways, so yes, definitely a Pacer and a 156 (which was I think the first DMU to be called a 'Sprinter' - the 150's were intended to be 'urban' DMUs, not Sprinters as far as I remember).

As to locos, 59 (first mainline EMD in the UK), 92 (the first AC traction drive electric loco in the UK), a Eurotunnel shuttle loco (most powerful loco to date, and a unique - to the UK - Bo-Bo-Bo wheel arrangement), 91 (first 140 mph loco).

On the passenger side, a Mk3 day coach and sleeper, a Networker EMU and a 168 (first post-privatisation passenger train built, and effectively the first '3rd generation' DMU)

Tony

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The first class 442 (speed record for 3rd rail)

 

[Manchester77]

There's only 84001 and 87001 in the national collection, that's not most/all.

Course sorry was getting confused with the barrow hill shed which has an 81-85 + 89 preserved.

When it comes to it I hope the front coach of a voyager is preserved and while many people dislike them they represented a change on XC seeing the network improved but also shrunk.

 

[Qwerty133]

A class 153, for use in training for engineers and rolling stock designers, in what not to do ...
or because according to some they saved some branch lines from closure.

 

[yorksrob]

A class 153, for use in training for engineers and rolling stock designers, in what not to do ..

I can think of some units more suited to that task !

 

[ac6000cw]

When it comes to it I hope the front coach of a voyager is preserved and while many people dislike them they represented a change on XC seeing the network improved but also shrunk.

I agree - and the 221's were the first tilting trains to enter normal service in the UK, beating the Pendolino's by a few months (as far as I can work out from Wikipedia )

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If it's not already part of the national collection, they've got to add the protype HST

The surviving prototype power car is, I believe, part of the national collection. It would certainly be nice to secure the prototype Mk3s to go with it - most of them are still in service, some with FGW and EC ( 40001, 41001, 41002, 42000, 42001 and 42002 ) and two in the NMT ( 40000 and 41000 ).

One thing that is certainly needed is a more co-ordinated approach to preservation in the UK; we have a number of instances where a large number of one type are preserved to the detriment of other types. What would be done in an ideal world would be to save in order of priority:

First, one example of each class.

Second, one example of each sub class within that.

Only once that target is met should any duplication be considered. Of course in practice that would not always be practical, especially if a type was vanishing very quickly, and it would also require a voluntary co-ordinating group to be set up but that could never be made compulsory and even if it was there would still be member societies wanting to buy something just because it's someone's personal favourite locomotive or unit...

 

[fgwrich]

One if not both 150/0s need to be preserved if not at least in the national collection, what with the 150/0s status - the first of the newer British Rail DMUs that really sparked a revolution for BR in bringing in the age of the Sprinter and Super Sprinter, visited most of the country and really have done very well for their services they've been used upon, both serving Rural branchlines to busy interurban commuter work across the Midlands. As well as being two BR Prototypes in service today! 150002 still shares some of it's scars of being the prototype Class 158 testbed, with the air con pods and grills remaining on one of the cars.

 

[Manchester77]

One thing that is certainly needed is a more co-ordinated approach to preservation in the UK; we have a number of instances where a large number of one type are preserved to the detriment of other types. What would be done in an ideal world would be to save in order of priority:

First, one example of each class.

Second, one example of each sub class within that.

Only once that target is met should any duplication be considered. Of course in practice that would not always be practical, especially if a type was vanishing very quickly, and it would also require a voluntary co-ordinating group to be set up but that could never be made compulsory and even if it was there would still be member societies wanting to buy something just because it's someone's personal favourite locomotive or unit...

Very true. With no herritage railways having any electrification preservation of electric stock should be with the national collection however very few EMUs are in the collection. I'd have thought that at least a 2-epb would have been in the collection! I was also shocked to find no 50s in the collection however there are 18 preserved on herritage lines so I guess that's ok and what you mean by duplication where one class has been almost over preserved at the expense of preserving less popular stock. I fully agree with the at least one of each kind idea because not everyone is going to be interested in seeing loads of the same stock.

Adding to the list I do think an 86 should be in the collection since we have an 87 but the 86 is arguably more important than the 87; for one thing the 86s lead to the development of the 87!!

 

[37038]

58050 in Spain has already been put down as an NRM loco upon return

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I would also think the NRM should have a 37 or 47 to be sectioned and also an 86 to be sectioned so that they could have an example each of steam, diesel and electric showing the insides.

 

[phil281]

Post Privatisation I would say a Pendolino, not everyone's cup of tea, but they really have revolutionised the WCML, a Class 170 (First Post-Priv DMU) and maybe a 458 (First Post-Priv EMU I think) and also a Class 66.

 

[J123]

Hopefully... A Tyne and Wear Metro car.

 

[DarloRich]

One wonders where all of these new items are to be stored / displayed!

 

[Harbon 1]

One wonders where all of these new items are to be stored / displayed!

I was thinking that! The units will be a bit long

60100 as the last mainline diesel loco built in the UK assuming there won't be another one? Or 60015 since that was the last accepted by BR.

 

[fgwrich]

One wonders where all of these new items are to be stored / displayed!

Simple - ish. First, you can do what the 125 group and NRM are doing which is to loan certain items of useable rolling stock to Pres Groups and Set ups which will continue to see that the loco or unit is run and well looked after. Then for the items of rolling stock that cannot be run, there will hopefully an out-branch of the NRM at Leicester North if either enough money is to be raised or they manage a second more successful win in the Heritage Lottery.

I did say ish!

 

[yorksrob]

In the good old days, the NRM's 2BIL unit used to be permanently kept and maintained on the Southrn Region where it was available for railtours and specials.

 

[37038]

RHC Designation list shows the following locos and stock:

"Class 43 Diesel Locomotives plus Coaches comprising InterCity 125 High Speed Trains"
"Class 91 Locomotive no. 91031*Sir Henry Royce*(last high-speed locomotive built for BR, and holder of speed record for train conveying passengers in Britain: 154.1mph)
"Class 37 Locomotives nos. 37350/D6700 NRM National Railway Museum (formerly D6700, then 37119) [Disposal to NRM − 17.11.00] and 37351 (formerly D 6702, then 37002) [De-designated – 17.11.00]"
"Class 47 Locomotives: no. 47798 Prince William (formerly D1656, then 47072, then 47609, then 47834) [Disposal to NRM − 5.3.04]; no. 47799 Prince Henry (formerly D1654, then 47070, then 47620, then 47835) De-designated other than nameplates and crests − 5.3.04."
"Class 303 Electric Multiple Units nos. 032 and 085 (Glasgow ‘Blue Trains’) Amended designation: see 1996/5. [Disposal of set 032 to Scottish Railway Preservation Society, subject to suitable terms; and de-designation of set 085 − 16.11.01."
"Class 311 (Glasgow ‘Blue Train’) Electric Multiple Unit Driving Battery Trailer no. 977844 (formerly 76433) (from unit no. 936103) [See also 2000/4]*
[Disposal to North Lanarkshire Council − 20.5.02]"
"Class 101 Diesel Multiple Unit nos. 53204 (formerly 50204) and 54056 (formerly 56056) [Disposal to NRM – 5.12.03] Amended vehicle numbers − 19.3.04: 51192 (DMBS − Driving Motor Brake Second − no previous number) and 54352 (DTS − Driving Trailer Second − formerly no. 56352)"
"Class 33 Locomotive no. 33116 (formerly D 6535) [Disposal to NRM − 22.3.02]"
"Class 58 Locomotive no. 58050 Toton Traction Depot"
"Class 306 Electric Multiple Unit no. 017 [Disposal to NRM − 9.6.06]"
"Class 423 4VEP Driving Trailer no. 76875, from unit 3545 [Disposal to NRM – 3.2.06]"
"Class 414 2HAP unit no. 4308 (vehicle nos: 61275 and 75395) [Disposal to NRM − 3.2.06]"
"Parry People Movers – Class 139 Gas/Flywheel Hybrid Drive Railcars nos. 139001 and 139002"
"Class 60 Locomotive no. 60100"
"Pendolino ‘Power Car’ and Coach at Virgin Training Academy, Crewe. Vehicles nos. 69133 (DMRFO – Driving Motor First Restaurant Open) and 69833 (PTSRMB – Pantograph Trailer Standard with Miniature Buffet) from set no. 390033 City of Glasgow, damaged in Greyrigg/Lambrigg accident in 23rd February 2007."

As posted by me elsewhere

Thanks

 

[Peter Mugridge]

RHC Designation list shows the following locos and stock:

"Pendolino ‘Power Car’ and Coach at Virgin Training Academy, Crewe. Vehicles nos. 69133 (DMRFO – Driving Motor First Restaurant Open) and 69833 (PTSRMB – Pantograph Trailer Standard with Miniature Buffet) from set no. 390033 City of Glasgow, damaged in Greyrigg/Lambrigg accident in 23rd February 2007."

That's interesting; they aren't usually keen on keeping anything that's been involved in a high profile accident or other adverse incident are they?

 

[IanXC]

That's interesting; they aren't usually keen on keeping anything that's been involved in a high profile accident or other adverse incident are they?

I suppose in this instance theres little chance of operating a 390 without 5+ (?) vehicles, so if you're going to have 2 stationary it makes little difference what history they have. In fact I suppose thats a story to tell in itself?

What stood out for me was, not just 1 but both Parry People Movers?!

 

[Bonemaster]

RHC Designation list shows the following locos and stock:

"Class 43 Diesel Locomotives plus Coaches comprising InterCity 125 High Speed Trains"
"Class 91 Locomotive no. 91031*Sir Henry Royce*(last high-speed locomotive built for BR, and holder of speed record for train conveying passengers in Britain: 154.1mph)
"Class 37 Locomotives nos. 37350/D6700 NRM National Railway Museum (formerly D6700, then 37119) [Disposal to NRM − 17.11.00] and 37351 (formerly D 6702, then 37002) [De-designated – 17.11.00]"
"Class 47 Locomotives: no. 47798 Prince William (formerly D1656, then 47072, then 47609, then 47834) [Disposal to NRM − 5.3.04]; no. 47799 Prince Henry (formerly D1654, then 47070, then 47620, then 47835) De-designated other than nameplates and crests − 5.3.04."
"Class 303 Electric Multiple Units nos. 032 and 085 (Glasgow ‘Blue Trains’) Amended designation: see 1996/5. [Disposal of set 032 to Scottish Railway Preservation Society, subject to suitable terms; and de-designation of set 085 − 16.11.01."
"Class 311 (Glasgow ‘Blue Train’) Electric Multiple Unit Driving Battery Trailer no. 977844 (formerly 76433) (from unit no. 936103) [See also 2000/4]*
[Disposal to North Lanarkshire Council − 20.5.02]"
"Class 101 Diesel Multiple Unit nos. 53204 (formerly 50204) and 54056 (formerly 56056) [Disposal to NRM – 5.12.03] Amended vehicle numbers − 19.3.04: 51192 (DMBS − Driving Motor Brake Second − no previous number) and 54352 (DTS − Driving Trailer Second − formerly no. 56352)"
"Class 33 Locomotive no. 33116 (formerly D 6535) [Disposal to NRM − 22.3.02]"
"Class 58 Locomotive no. 58050 Toton Traction Depot"
"Class 306 Electric Multiple Unit no. 017 [Disposal to NRM − 9.6.06]"
"Class 423 4VEP Driving Trailer no. 76875, from unit 3545 [Disposal to NRM – 3.2.06]"
"Class 414 2HAP unit no. 4308 (vehicle nos: 61275 and 75395) [Disposal to NRM − 3.2.06]"
"Parry People Movers – Class 139 Gas/Flywheel Hybrid Drive Railcars nos. 139001 and 139002"
"Class 60 Locomotive no. 60100"
"Pendolino ‘Power Car’ and Coach at Virgin Training Academy, Crewe. Vehicles nos. 69133 (DMRFO – Driving Motor First Restaurant Open) and 69833 (PTSRMB – Pantograph Trailer Standard with Miniature Buffet) from set no. 390033 City of Glasgow, damaged in Greyrigg/Lambrigg accident in 23rd February 2007."

As posted by me elsewhere

Thanks

The Railway Heritage Committee was closed down in 2013, and responsibility passed to the board of trustees of the Science Museum. I would imagine the list as such went with the RHC.

 

[edwin_m]

What stood out for me was, not just 1 but both Parry People Movers?!

Looking at the posted list, there were several cases where two similar items were listed and one was de-listed once the other had been secured for the collection. Does this mean that the policy is (sometimes) to list a "reserve" in case the main target is in an accident or turns out to have some major defect?

Unless something changes radically the Parry People Mover will be no more than a footnote to railway history and I wouldn't have listed it myself as I think the NRM is already too full of one-offs at the expense of the typical and workaday. On the other hand I suppose it doesn't take up a lot of room...

 

[yorksrob]

Unless something changes radically the Parry People Mover will be no more than a footnote to railway history and I wouldn't have listed it myself as I think the NRM is already too full of one-offs at the expense of the typical and workaday. On the other hand I suppose it doesn't take up a lot of room...

Quite. Alas, novelty seems to win the day.

I always thought that a Hastings DEMU power car would have been a good item. There are a whole number of interesting narratives around why diesel electric traction was chosen on the Southern, how it fitted into the overall train fleet, why the Hastings main line had narrow tunnels and how the problem was solved which could have been highlighted.

 

[t_star2001uk]

I have just made a Freedom of Information request to the Science Museum to see what they deem significant.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I suppose in this instance theres little chance of operating a 390 without 5+ (?) vehicles, so if you're going to have 2 stationary it makes little difference what history they have. In fact I suppose thats a story to tell in itself?

Well, they have gone to some extreme lengths previously to ensure that items connected with high profile accidents were not preserved; not just accidents either... a certain notorious class 40 was scrapped under strict managerial supervision wasn't it?