Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[jnjkerbin]

Was there not a some point going to be a peak service to Tunbridge Wells and Ashford via Tonbridge? If so, it appears that has been cut.

 

[greatkingrat]

I'm a bit confused about the off-peak service. There should be 16tph in total

4 tph Bedford
2 tph Luton
2 tph St Albans
4 tph Cambridge
2 tph Peterborough.

That makes 14tph. If the Welwyn - Caterham service is peak only, then we are missing another off-peak service?

 

[traji00]

Was there not a some point going to be a peak service to Tunbridge Wells and Ashford via Tonbridge? If so, it appears that has been cut.

Might have been dropped after the Sutton loop got its reprieve.

 

[Stats]

I'm a bit confused about the off-peak service. There should be 16tph in total

4 tph Bedford
2 tph Luton
2 tph St Albans
4 tph Cambridge
2 tph Peterborough.

That makes 14tph. If the Welwyn - Caterham service is peak only, then we are missing another off-peak service?

You're missing 2tph Sevenoaks to Kentish Town

 

[59CosG95]

It's only really the 315s which will be displaced by LO, note not 378s because a bidder hasn't been chosen yet (an ITT hasn't been released for the 39 EMUs yet!)

Northern are probably going to get 319s with GW getting new EMUs and 319s for branches and Bristol as I've said previously. Northern don't really want none standard fleet of EMUs on the west side when they're mainly having 319s and 323s. The East side EMUs are 333s and 320-322s so unless more capacity is needed I can't see much use here.

I know that Northern already has a fleet of Dusties, so that's where they'll probably find best use. Failing the 315s, 317s could operate the Valleys, as they are in the midst of a big refurb ATM. Or why not split the 317s ½ and ½ between Wales and the North.

365s are probably best suited alongside 319s, allowing the latter to get refurbished while they operate the electric Liv-Man services. Gear 'em to 110 and use 'em for longer haul electric Northern services (eg the Lakes).
Coke cans for the 313s though. The 377/2s and /5s could replace them easily-should cover for the shortfall of /1s transferred to SE. TPE/TV/CorPan services seem the obvious home for the 387s.

 

[Aictos]

I know that Northern already has a fleet of Dusties, so that's where they'll probably find best use. Failing the 315s, 317s could operate the Valleys, as they are in the midst of a big refurb ATM. Or why not split the 317s ½ and ½ between Wales and the North.

365s are probably best suited alongside 319s, allowing the latter to get refurbished while they operate the electric Liv-Man services. Gear 'em to 110 and use 'em for longer haul electric Northern services (eg the Lakes).
Coke cans for the 313s though. The 377/2s and /5s could replace them easily-should cover for the shortfall of /1s transferred to SE. TPE/TV/CorPan services seem the obvious home for the 387s.

I see one tiny snag with your proposal though, the Class 365s look to be staying as in DfT's own words as a residual fleet on GN services.

Class 313s are being replaced by new built with the Class 317s and 321s free to be cascaded elsewhere.

 

[jon0844]

If King's Lynn trains will get new units with air conditioning, these definitely won't be 365s. They'd be old for one thing, and air con isn't being fitted. And the other services will be 700s.

So where could they remain in use on the GN?

Obviously for the time being, but surely not for the entire franchise period.

Unless it's a mistake on the part of the DfT.

 

[hwl]

I see one tiny snag with your proposal though, the Class 365s look to be staying as in DfT's own words as a residual fleet on GN services.

Class 313s are being replaced by new built with the Class 317s and 321s free to be cascaded elsewhere.

The text on the DfT map for Kings Lynn says "more modern air-conditioned trains replacing the current units"

One possible interpretation of this is the 365s will go being replaced by some of the DV 377s. Or this isn't wholly true and it is a more generalised GN comment and just the 317s and 321 are going with the 365s getting a refurb, which would be a more modern fleet as the oldest would be removed thus lowering the average...

 

[westcoaster]

The text on the DfT map for Kings Lynn says "more modern air-conditioned trains replacing the current units"

One possible interpretation of this is the 365s will go being replaced by some of the DV 377s. Or this isn't wholly true and it is a more generalised GN comment and just the 317s and 321 are going with the 365s getting a refurb, which would be a more modern fleet

What about the 387's after squadron service on the TL.

 

[jon0844]

This would make sense. Everyone wondered where they'd end up afterwards, and this would be quite logical.

I'd miss the 365s though. Damn comfortable and still look and feel modern, especially with the latest refit. I won't miss the heat when boarding a train at King's Cross though, which just arrived from Hornsey depot on a hot sunny afternoon with the windows shut - and having to wait until somewhere between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace before the airflow from the (noisy and sometimes leaking/non closable) windows has cooled it sufficiently.

 

[hwl]

This would make sense. Everyone wondered where they'd end up afterwards, and this would be quite logical.

I'd miss the 365s though. Damn comfortable and still look and feel modern, especially with the latest refit.

The ITT says the currently on order 387s have to be cascaded, the 387 options look likely to be mostly used up on GatEX as that is the only option for new stock delivery in time.

In another thread the stored 317s are mentioned as being used again with GA and FCC, in the later case to cover the 365 refurb, the question is will these units be able to be included in the required cascades mentioned in the ITT?

 

[bicbasher]

It's worth noting that the current Caterham peak services to London Bridge are fast from Norwood Junction in the morning peak, with the return services being stoppers which then goes works in the opposite direction in the evening peak.

It's these fast peaks which are likely to become Thameslink services.

 

[jon0844]

The ITT says the currently on order 387s have to be cascaded, the 387 options look likely to be mostly used up on GatEX as that is the only option for new stock delivery in time.

In another thread the stored 317s are mentioned as being used again with GA and FCC, in the later case to cover the 365 refurb, the question is will these units be able to be included in the required cascades mentioned in the ITT?

The 317/7s could be given a massive refurbishment and get aircon (and indeed the other 317s and 321s), but they'd not be more modern than the 365s.

If 387s can be cascaded to GatEx, which is part of the same franchise, then surely they could be cascaded from Thameslink operations to exclusive use on the GN side? Nothing says they have to be cascaded to another operator?

What IS the case is they have to be moved somewhere as they won't be able to operate through the core eventually.

 

[hwl]

The 317/7s could be given a massive refurbishment and get aircon (and indeed the other 317s and 321s), but they'd not be more modern than the 365s.

If 387s can be cascaded to GatEx, which is part of the same franchise, then surely they could be cascaded from Thameslink operations to exclusive use on the GN side? Nothing says they have to be cascaded to another operator?

What IS the case is they have to be moved somewhere as they won't be able to operate through the core eventually.

They aren't the Gatex stock comes from taking up 27 of the 35 options for additional 387s not the stock from the first confirmed batch for Thameslink.
that does leave 8 options still available. (does the off peak time quoted suggest 110mph max speed?)

Looking back at the TSGN ITT thread I worked out that TSGN would have to cascade 21x 4 car units assuming all the 317s, 319s, 321s they had at the time went.
So the could either lose 365s, 377s or 455s.
Returning the 377s to the ROSCO is effectively impossible until 2022 so either some 365 or 455s are going. DfT saying air con to King Lynn suggests some 365s...

 

[Stats]

If 387s can be cascaded to GatEx, which is part of the same franchise, then surely they could be cascaded from Thameslink operations to exclusive use on the GN side? Nothing says they have to be cascaded to another operator.

The ITT stated that 116 110mph ac vehicles have to be released from the TSGN franchise by end 2018. These are the 387s.

They also have to release 328 100mph ac vehicles, 176 dc vehicles and sub-lease 100 dc vehicles to SouthEastern. The 313s and 442s cannot be counted towards these totals.

 

[Olaf]

Go-Ahead statement and presentation, including financials
http://www.go-ahead.com/ir/result_centre/2014result.aspx



To deliver a new fleet of trains by 2016, surely they must have somebody already set up, or is there an existing order where they can exercise an option?

Just speculating, but there is an option on the new Crossrail fleet for extra vehicles that did not seem to fit with unfulfilled requirements; I can not recall the numbers involved.
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It's dotted, indicating it won't run for the whole length of the franchise. As it exists now that may mean it will be withdrawn during the franchise (though most of the dotted lines are for services which will be introduced).

I think this is discussed in an earlier route plan or RUS; the intent is to cut back the service to terminate at Stevenage to eliminate delays due capacity constraints.

 

[Webley]

Anyone know if the East Grinstead line will benefit with this franchise award. It has always been slow and arduous.

 

[Olaf]

With the conservative approach to franchising by the DFT since the west coast fiasco , this was always the most likely outcome, Southern like Virgin were fairly popular ,have mostly new trains and was the largest of the incumbents (less re branding costs),so this was easily the most politically correct and least controversial decision for DFT in this particular competition .

I think Southern's record on managing fleet procurement, vehicle commissioning, and the last set of service changes acted in its favour, whereas First had a record of service problems with FCC.
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I too hope that they change the livery, I like Southern's but I prefer the new Thameslink livery I personally hope that they roll this out en-masse, but with the blue on the doors also being on that thick white diagonal stripe at the ends of each carriage. Brand all of it 'Southern'.

In fact I'd like to see this livery applied nationwide, but with differing colours for the doors and diagonal stripe for each franchise, but I can only dream :P

I think there was talk of adopting a similar policy to that in Scotland, except that the base colour use by all franchises would be largely off-white (as in the current off-franchise liveries that have been use), with colour flashes and branding but of limited extent - something similar that first adopted on National Express coaches just after its formation.

 

[A-driver]

Anyone know if the East Grinstead line will benefit with this franchise award. It has always been slow and arduous.

I disagree with that, it's far from a slow line. 50mons Vic-east grinstead is hardly slow. Speeds of up to 85mph, semi fasts in the peak etc, it's a pretty fast service down there.

 

[03_179]

Harringay is the new terminus for HS2, while Hornsey will be the new arrivals station for Eurostar. There's then a travelator between the two.

Does that not show up on your interactive map??

Excellent ... I am looking forward to that from the window

 

[GodAtum]

One thing I have never understood is southern s reluctance to improve the first class accommodation in its 377s considering that many southern and London based go ahead managers use it, and also the lack of cushioning on the 3x2 seating which is awful after an hour journey, let alone 2 hours.

I can only think it's because of their mixed use on metro services.

Annoying they have had a chance to make changes during the current refreshing programme. The rough sandpaper like seat covers don't help.

Why don't Southern buy some 450s, they have the same length and doors are in the same place? Their 1st is much nicer.

Gareth, if your thinking of the daily 442 that runs from Eastbourne to London Bridge and VV. Not sure on that one. After the rebuild, the terminating platforms at London Bridge will only have 6 platforms and 3 approach/dept tracks, so something will have to go. The Siemens TL trains with their lack of tables (both seat back and normal) less seats, more cramped seats will be a shock fo many outer London commuters, but the word is the DFT dont care. All they are bothered about is a dwel time in the central london stations of 35 secs and getting as many folks into the trains as possible.
If your a first class commuter used to the current 442's that run london bridge to Brighton and Eastbourne, 2018 is going to come as a bit of a shock.

The 442s could be replaced by 444s?

I'm worried about timetable changes from East Croydon, atm it is just right. Also how will delay repay work, do Southern and FCC have the same rules?

 

[cle]

I'm still pretty underwhelmed by the off peak timetable - seems way too conservative and hardly worth the bother (which I often think about the whole project besides the station works).

And still just 2tph via the Catford Loop is pitiful for inner London.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Why don't Southern buy some 450s, they have the same length and doors are in the same place? Their 1st is much nicer.



The 442s could be replaced by 444s?

I'm worried about timetable changes from East Croydon, atm it is just right. Also how will delay repay work, do Southern and FCC have the same rules?

AFAIK both Southern and SWTs if they wanted a new build of Desiros, they'd have to be a dual-voltage version of a class 380 due to I think it's the crash worthyness regs or something like that. SWT wouldn't necessarily need the AC.

 

[fusionblue]

I'm still pretty underwhelmed by the off peak timetable - seems way too conservative and hardly worth the bother (which I often think about the whole project besides the station works).

And still just 2tph via the Catford Loop is pitiful for inner London.

I agree entirely. All this money spent and yet the improvements seem to be focussed on south of london, instead of in south london.

Both the wimbledon and catford loop was shortchanged pretty heavily in this project - nine years of "improvements" to have exactly the same frequency and length of train (and even station surroundings/facilities) at the end of it.

It's pretty amazing when you look at how much money was spent on redeveloping Blackfriars and London Bridge, but go to Elephant and it still looks and feels stuck in the 60s (never mind the shopping centre its attached to!), like the unwanted stepchild that everybody hopes if they ignore enough it will go away.

 

[47802]

Just speculating, but there is an option on the new Crossrail fleet for extra vehicles that did not seem to fit with unfulfilled requirements; I can not recall the numbers involved.
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.

It seems to be the general view although unconfimed yet that will be the additional option build for the 387's, except possibly the order will be tweeked to be DC only and another 377 variant, some are suggesting it might simply be the first batch of 387's staying although the numbers and timing quoted don't quite add up for that. Either way given the timescale its unlikely to be any other option than these.
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Why don't Southern buy some 450s, they have the same length and doors are in the same place? Their 1st is much nicer.



The 442s could be replaced by 444s?

I'm worried about timetable changes from East Croydon, atm it is just right. Also how will delay repay work, do Southern and FCC have the same rules?

The quality of the 1st class is largely specified by the TOC/DFT regardless of the train manufacturer.

One reason for getting rid of 442's is the door arrangement isn't ideal for a heavy relatively short distance commuter route and Airport passengers with loads of luggage, so why would you get 444's which in any case you cannot build any more of anyway.

 

[cle]

Well I hope the Elephant station will be improved as part of various schemes. By relocating the Walworth Road buses, it's implicitly taking a lot of people away from the shopping centre transfer from NR.

Wimbledon Loop - I know not popular but I did support terminating at Blackfriars if frequency was to double. And London Bridge trains too.

On the Catford Loop, if not Thameslink then some Victoria trains need to be introduced as per years of talk. Although it's the age old South London conundrum of 2tph to various termini - I'd rather consolidate and have higher frequencies.

Beyond Blackfriars at weekends would be somewhat useful too. What's the point! And during the day on the proposed off peak timetable, it seems there are 2tph less to Luton. Anyone would think there was a big town and airport on the route with lots of off peak demand!

Surely the Kentish Town terminators could run there - the northern stretch via West Hampstead is supposed to be a metro route surely.

Typical TOCs only caring about cosseted season ticket holders outside of Greater London.

 

[Webley]

Sorry A Driver what I meant was will there be a increase of frequency. Or will East Grinstead trains be going to places like Finsbury Park, Cambridge etc.
I commute on the Grinstead line. extra stop at South Croydon in the rush hour. I am not impressed with the service. Yes line speeds are high in some places. Still I find it arduous.
All the best

 

[physics34]

I'm still pretty underwhelmed by the off peak timetable - seems way too conservative and hardly worth the bother (which I often think about the whole project besides the station works).

And still just 2tph via the Catford Loop is pitiful for inner London.

I often think that too

Apart from the core section, I honestly cannot see why many people would want to travel from purley to cambridge for example.

The amount of money being spent couldve been shared around the country, for once i feel sorry for the north.

For example the Pacers are an embarrassment.
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Sorry A Driver what I meant was will there be a increase of frequency. Or will East Grinstead trains be going to places like Finsbury Park, Cambridge etc.
I commute on the Grinstead line. extra stop at South Croydon in the rush hour. I am not impressed with the service. Yes line speeds are high in some places. Still I find it arduous.
All the best

have to disagree, you are a stereotypical east grinstead line passenger.... they really are the moaniest passengers we have got

You do often get hit with alot of delays its true, but you get a really good frequency of service down there and now with 12 car services you can get a seat.

There did used to be a couple of peak hour trains fast from oxted to sanderstead for example, but these have had to have been taken out because of the uckfield services.

A signalling upgrade would be needed to change it back.

 

[cle]

Shame really as high all day frequencies would enable the line to be used from West Hampstead/Kentish Town and Finsbury Park through to London Bridge/Elephant as an alternative tube line.

Might be useful and relieve some tube lines (Northern City branch especially - and particularly during the Bank rebuild?). And once Crossrail opens with the connection at Farringdon, there would be even more possible intra-London journeys possible avoiding the tube.

 

[Chrisgr31]

have to disagree, you are a stereotypical east grinstead line passenger.... they really are the moaniest passengers we have got

You do often get hit with alot of delays its true, but you get a really good frequency of service down there and now with 12 car services you can get a seat.

There did used to be a couple of peak hour trains fast from oxted to sanderstead for example, but these have had to have been taken out because of the uckfield services.

A signalling upgrade would be needed to change it back.

I think Uckfield passengers would agree with you! A mere 15 miles down the road from East Grinstead yet the fastest journey time to London Bridge appears to 1 hour 10 so an extra 20 minutes to do those 15 miles!