Into Liverpool St from the north or midlands

[David Sinnett]

Has it ever happened on a regular service?

London stations are still largely as per historic geographic groupings but would it be possible or difficult to run some longer distance trains into stations on the opposite side of the city and therefore convenient for the financial area?

Does it make more sense to have all London services from a region going into one terminus or are Southerns services into Victoria AND London Bridge a good idea?

 

[A-driver]

Has it ever happened on a regular service?



London stations are still largely as per historic geographic groupings but would it be possible or difficult to run some longer distance trains into stations on the opposite side of the city and therefore convenient for the financial area?



Does it make more sense to have all London services from a region going into one terminus or are Southerns services into Victoria AND London Bridge a good idea?

Before getting into capacity issues and the possible need to electrify branch lines linking main corridors it's probably worth weighing up the speed compared with the tube. The north London line alone would provide access to most mainline stations even if reversing is needed so you could run Plymouth direct to Liverpool street but it's only going to help a tiny amount of people and will still take longer than going to paddington and jumping on the tube.

Things like Manchester-Nuneaton-Peterbourgh-Cambridge-Liverpool street are all very well for direct Manchester- city commuters but it is still going to take considerably longer than getting the tube from Euston.

 

[Greenback]

It's possible to send trains into a different terminal, but its usually pointless. Look at FGW services, what would be the point of sending them anywhere other than Paddington? It would mean longer journey times for a start, as well as worse utilisation of stock. And, as A-driver says, that's without getting into pathing and capacity!

Historically, services on the old Southern Region have served a terminus in the City of London and the West End. all of the old private companies saw the sense in providing a terminal at each, hence Holborn Viaduct, Blackfriars and Cannon Street, with Waterloo, Charing Cross and Victoria for the West End.

Of course, it may all have been completely different if the centre of London hadn't been out of bounds of railway stations!

 

[30907]

Historically, services on the old Southern Region have served a terminus in the City of London and the West End. all of the old private companies saw the sense in providing a terminal at each, hence Holborn Viaduct, Blackfriars and Cannon Street, with Waterloo, Charing Cross and Victoria for the West End.

Added to that: The Great Northern and LNWR served Broad Street, the GN and Midland served Moorgate - and the GWR had through running at one time onto the Met at Paddington IIRC - meaning that everyone had access to the City.

 

[dk1]

When part owned by GB Railways & leasing their 170s, Hull Trains have run into Liverpool St via Cambridge during ECML engineering work thus offering a slow but through service to the capital.

 

[crewmeal]

I'm sure one day when a company like Eurostar want to expand into the regions ie Manchester, Birmingham, Scotland then a true line connecting HS1 will need to be built without having to go in to St Pancras.

 

[racyrich]

The Great Eastern used to have a service to York.

 

[NSE]

Any destinations from North of Peterborough can physically easily access Liverpool St via either Cambridge or Ipswich. Its the sort of thing that could run once a day and would probably have enough passengers, especially with local ones en route utilising it as the next Liverpool St service, irrespective of its origin. But would it make enough money to cover the route learning and the stock clearance and the provisions for failures etc etc, no it wouldn't. So it wont happen.

 

[Springs Branch]

Not Liverpool Street, I know, but in the last days of BR and in the Virgin Cross Country era, weren't there regular Paddington - Reading - Birmingham NS - Manchester Piccadilly / Liverpool Lime St trains? With some of the Manchester ones extended to Glasgow via Piccadilly 13/14 and the Windsor Link (Salford, not Slough).

Of course these would be primarily intended as cross-country trains, not to provide Mancunians/Glaswegians travelling to west London with a convenient terminus.


Also, when Eurostar was operating from Waterloo International, was there ever a cross-country train from the north direct into Waterloo for Channel Tunnel passengers? (I remember hearing this proposed, but not sure if the Waterloo trains ever ran).

 

[dk1]

The Great Eastern used to have a service to York.

And a daily service between Colchester & Scotland.

 

[route:oxford]

Also, when Eurostar was operating from Waterloo International, was there ever a cross-country train from the north direct into Waterloo for Channel Tunnel passengers? (I remember hearing this proposed, but not sure if the Waterloo trains ever ran).

Yes, I used the service direct from Edinburgh to Waterloo.

Took around an hour to circumnavigate around London.

It was quicker to take the tube, which is essentially why it stopped happening - other than the fact that around a dozen people isn't a good use of an HST.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There were once regular services that ran from Manchester London Road station to London Marylebone station.

 

[34D]

Also there were some services from Watford Junction into Broad Street, then Liverpool St, then just round to North Woolwich.

 

[306024]

There were a couple of HSTs into Liverpool St many years ago, unplanned when the GN was suddenly blocked. However the most unusual working I can recall at Liverpool St was as follows.

One year engineering work meant that a couple of Southern region specials to Spalding flower parade were diverted via Liverpool St (no idea what combination of possessions lead to that situation). They were both timed to leave Liverpool St together, one down the sub via Hackney Downs, the other down the main via Stratford. The sight of two class 33s climbing Bethnal Green bank almost next to each other was somewhat strange.

 

[Viscount702]

Not Liverpool Street but there was the Manchester Boat train from London Road to Harwich

 

[chorleyjeff]

Not Liverpool Street but there was the Manchester Boat train from London Road to Harwich

I used to travel on the Blackpool to Harwich via Man Vic - but that has nothing to do with London terminuses ( or is it termini or terminii, dropped Latin in year 2 being too dim to benefit from it)

 

[Mike Buckner]

In the Waterloo Eurostar era, there was a once a day return HST between Bristol and Waterloo - I caught this once

 

[Springs Branch]

Looking at some old Working Timetables from the 1970s, at that time regular Parcels trains ran from north-west England into Liverpool St.

As examples:
In 1974 there was 3E00 22.10 SX Manchester Mayfield to London Liverpool Street Parcels.
In 1977 there was 3E17 22.52 SX Bolton to Liverpool St Parcels
Both trains ran via Woodhead, changing from diesel to electric haulage at Guide Bridge (ex Mayfield) or Ashburys (ex Bolton via Man Vic & Philips Park).

I don't know what route these trains followed after Sheffield (my WTTs ran out after Dunford Bridge).

The reverse workings did not originate from Liverpool Street.
The balancing train into Mayfield seems to be the 4M01 17.35 ex Cambridge (arr Mayfield 02.32), while Bolton had 4M09 01.15 ex Nottingham (arr 04.51).


The details of BR's overnight parcels trains are quite interesting, but probably poorly recorded in photos as most trains ran in the dark.

There was a whole "parallel universe" network of dedicated parcels trains (in addition to the mail & newspaper trains) which mostly looked quite different to the normal passenger network and ran between odd points you would not normally connect e.g. Wigan NW to Sunderland, or Bolton to Portsmouth. Plus in Manchester & the Lancashire towns there were local Diesel Parcels Units shuttling around in the early mornings and evenings (and featured in my teenage train spotting outings on long midsummer evenings).

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Also there were some services from Watford Junction into Broad Street, then Liverpool St, then just round to North Woolwich.

Yes I remember those. I think they built a spur to do this when Broad Street was closed. I think it's still there?

 

[colchesterken]

I think they have missed lots of options with crossrail..I understand it is designed for 24 paths per hr
They could do Norwich to Cardiff .Stanstead to Heathrow Via Stratford.stopping at all central stations, Wales to East Kent
Off peak, freight think of the time saved not going round London

 

[dk1]

I think they have missed lots of options with crossrail..I understand it is designed for 24 paths per hr
They could do Norwich to Cardiff .Stanstead to Heathrow Via Stratford.stopping at all central stations, Wales to East Kent
Off peak, freight think of the time saved not going round London

Freight?? Dirty diesels in the tunnels & even if electric im sure TfL wont be happy. From what i see Norwich & other services will not be welcome on the E lines from Shenfield. Hope we are equally unfriendly when they want to use the Up & Down Main.

 

[ac6000cw]

Yes I remember those. I think they built a spur to do this when Broad Street was closed. I think it's still there?

It's the 'Graham Road Curve' - still there (and usable as far as I can tell).

 

[AndrewP]

Not Liverpool St but you can (or could do) York / Scarborough from St Pancras with East Midlands.

 

[306024]

Freight?? Dirty diesels in the tunnels & even if electric im sure TfL wont be happy. From what i see Norwich & other services will not be welcome on the E lines from Shenfield. Hope we are equally unfriendly when they want to use the Up & Down Main.

Separating services on the mains and electrics is a good story doing the rounds in the mess rooms, but there's no substance to it (yet!). Bit early days to consider contingency plans for May 2019 (when the Shenfield metros go down the tunnel), something sensible will have to be worked out, although it won't be easy.

As for other services using the tunnel, forget it. Crossrail is to cope with overcrowding that exists on other tube lines today, never mind 2019, by which time the population of London will have increased further. Only class 345s will run in the tunnel.

 

[infobleep]

Back in the early 1900s there were services from East Croydon to London Liverpool Street.

Away from Liverpool Street there was even a train from Clapham Junction that passed through Elephant and Castle.

Back in the Victorian era there was a Charring Cross to Canon Street service. Not sure when it stopped.

Away from central London you could catch a train from Woking Junction to Windsor.

There must be hundreds of lost service routes that ran on still existing lines or where most of the lines but not all from back then still exist.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[leytongabriel]

I believe there were also some pretty fantastical routes routes over what is now the GOBLIN line including St Pancras to Norwich, Southend and Tilbury(for the boats) and East Ham to Moorgate. In it's early days, trains on the part of the Central line going through Leyton towards Woodford etc ran round to Fenchurch St rather than Liverpool St.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm sure one day when a company like Eurostar want to expand into the regions ie Manchester, Birmingham, Scotland then a true line connecting HS1 will need to be built without having to go in to St Pancras.

Believe me that will never happen. Even HS2 have decided that there isn't a market for the routes that you have suggested.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe there were also some pretty fantastical routes routes over what is now the GOBLIN line including St Pancras to Norwich, Southend and Tilbury(for the boats) and East Ham to Moorgate. In it's early days, trains on the part of the Central line going through Leyton towards Woodford etc ran round to Fenchurch St rather than Liverpool St.

Yes that's right. I think the curve allowing such services existing until the late 70's/ early 1980's. The route can still be clearly seen from the MML.

 

[Welshman]

I believe there were also some pretty fantastical routes routes over what is now the GOBLIN line including St Pancras to Norwich, Southend and Tilbury(for the boats) and East Ham to Moorgate. In it's early days, trains on the part of the Central line going through Leyton towards Woodford etc ran round to Fenchurch St rather than Liverpool St.

The services from St Pancras to Southend and Tilbury were a throwback to the London, Tilbury & Southend Railway being bought by the Midland Railway in 1912, presumably to gain access to Tilbury Docks for freight traffic from the Midlands.

Then, at the 1923 Groupings, the line became part of the L.M.S. Railway. I just remember steam-hauled [usually with an LMS tank engine] commuter services from Southend to St Pancras in the 1950s-60s.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The services from St Pancras to Southend and Tilbury were a throwback to the London, Tilbury & Southend Railway being bought by the Midland Railway in 1912, presumably to gain access to Tilbury Docks for freight traffic from the Midlands.

Then, at the 1923 Groupings, the line became part of the L.M.S. Railway. I just remember steam-hauled [usually with an LMS tank engine] commuter services from Southend to St Pancras in the 1950s-60s.

I was aware that the Goblin line came about to service the Tilbury boat trains from STP, interesting that it remained under LMS/LMR rather than Eastern/LNER after 1923.

 

[ac6000cw]

I was aware that the Goblin line came about to service the Tilbury boat trains from STP, interesting that it remained under LMS/LMR rather than Eastern/LNER after 1923.

The 1923 grouping was mostly about merging/grouping companies, not lines/routes - GOBLIN & LT&S were already part of the MR, so they went with it into the new LMSR company.

That process did have the unfortunate side effect of creating near monopolies in some areas (e.g. north-west England was heavily dominated by LMSR, due to LNWR, L&Y & MR all ending up in it - the ex-GC Woodhead route (LNER) and GWR at Chester/Birkenhead were the only 'competitive' options west of the Pennines).