Future Class 313 options

[swt_passenger]

Regarding the TSGN franchise announcement today, I wonder if some of the widely assumed stock alterations discussed before now were actually leaked from the First proposals?

The particular one I'm thinking of was the regularly mentioned transfer of the 313s from Coastway services to augment the Moorgate route. As it turns out the latter service is now getting its own new fleet, so perhaps at least the GN 313 fleet will now be transferrable elsewhere, but if there some likelihood of the Coastway units also being made available too (with pantographs refitted), it adds up to a reasonable fleet size.

So is the entire 313 fleet (especially if given an overhaul to the Southern unit's interior standards) the answer to anything else ?

 

[jopsuk]

The timeline is for the new stock to be introduced in 2018. this will make the "retired" fleet 42 years old.

Where are young to find somewhere willing to take on 60 or so (I'm assuming that in the detail of the franchise the coast way fleet goes as well) 42 year old units? Other than a "metal recycling facility"?

 

[swt_passenger]

The timeline is for the new stock to be introduced in 2018. this will make the "retired" fleet 42 years old.

Where are young to find somewhere willing to take on 60 or so (I'm assuming that in the detail of the franchise the coast way fleet goes as well) 42 year old units? Other than a "metal recycling facility"?

I suppose you're right, I thought the 'Southern' refurb was supposed to be for around ten years life on the coastway, but I guess it is already getting a few years into that now anyway.

People will have enough on their plate proposing fantasy cascades for 442s - I think they'll be scrapped as well...

 

[3141]

Perhaps I should start a "fantasy cascades for 442s" thread, but if anyone wants some mark 3 coaches with powered doors they could take some of the intermediate coaches from the 442 units.

 

[petersi]

I guess
The 313's with only be cascaded if one of the newly electrified routes is to busy for a 4 car train so requires 6 cars and the platforms are to short for 8 car plus there is no better solution available.

Otherwise they should be retired

 

[northwichcat]

50 new metro-style EMU cars to replace the existing 1970s stock on commuter services into London's Moorgate station;

A new fleet of 108 coaches 'designed for airline travellers' to be introduced on Gatwick Express airport services by 2016;

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...k-southern-great-northern-rail-franchise.html

I think they mean 50 EMU trains not 50 EMU cars.

 

[jopsuk]

I suppose you're right, I thought the 'Southern' refurb was supposed to be for around ten years life on the coastway, but I guess it is already getting a few years into that now anyway.

People will have enough on their plate proposing fantasy cascades for 442s - I think they'll be scrapped as well...

The southern refurbs were done 2010. 2018 would be eight out of those ten years!

 

[Aictos]

Give them a Southern type refurbishment and put them on newly wired up routes maybe Cardiff Valleys, North West even?

 

[northwichcat]

Give them a Southern type refurbishment and put them on newly wired up routes maybe Cardiff Valleys, North West even?

Cardiff Valleys are expected to get 315s initially. Ignoring Merseyrail there's no suitable services for toilet-less EMUs to run in the North West except the match day shuttles to/from Old Trafford.

 

[tbtc]

What? Nobody's mentioned Lymington? I thought someone was bound to bring it up in the first couple of comments

I guess
The 313's with only be cascaded if one of the newly electrified routes is to busy for a 4 car train so requires 6 cars and the platforms are to short for 8 car plus there is no better solution available

There are a number of routes in the UK getting electrified where a four coach EMU is going to be overkill - some obvious examples are below:

• Motherwell to Cumbernauld
• Windermere to Oxenholme
• Nuneaton to Coventry
• Cardiff Bay shuttle

...now, whilst it may be simpler to have a uniform fleet of EMUs (i.e. easier to have all units four coaches long rather than keep one or two shorter ones for the quietest service), there will be a few routes where even a single three coach 313 is going to be a huge increase over the current capacity on a single Pacer/Sprinter.

There's also the issue that around 2018 (when the 313s are expected to get freed up) there are going to be a lot of routes being converted to EMU operation (whilst the rate of electrification may be relatively constant, the number of services that can be converted is going to rise faster toward the end of CP5 as the final bits of routes get completed - e.g. Manchester to Blackpool needs wires both sides of Preston before we can free up DMUs).

So, we could see a big "spike" in demand for EMUs around 2018, something that manufacturers may not be able to cope with. Having a supply of simple units like 313s might be useful for a number of areas, to ensure that there are EMUs ready from day one of a line being completed (witness the "why aren't there spare trains to run this new line" arguments on the Todmorden thread) - 313s could be a short term measure to provide some electric trains for a few years, let passenger numbers settle down post-electrification and then make a business case on something bigger/better in the early 2020s.

In short, I'd be surprised if they are all gone before the end of the decade - they are dual voltage "go anywhere" EMUs.

 

[Chris125]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...k-southern-great-northern-rail-franchise.html

I think they mean 50 EMU trains not 50 EMU cars.

The article now says 150 new vehicles, which would indeed be 50 3-car trains.

As for the redundant 313 and GatEx fleets, hard to see anything beyond scrap - perhaps some short term use further north for the former where 3-car units are needed, and perhaps some Brighton Express duties for the latter until all the Thameslink 377s are freed up?

Chris

 

[philjo]

Yes, I also thought of using 313s for some Windermere shuttles (hopefully some would run to/from Lancaster to ease connections)
They would also help the business case for wiring other short branches if the 313s can be used to avoid obtaining new trains initially (as plenty of emus will be needed for other lines).
e.g. the Morecambe branch

 

[northwichcat]

e.g. Manchester to Blackpool needs wires both sides of Preston before we can free up DMUs

I think dual powered an order DEMUs could help out, not just to allow more effective use of OHEs initially but longer term as well.

The Network Rail Regional Urban Market Study recommends still having a few daily services between Manchester and Barrow/Windermere post-North West electrification but Windermere isn't confirmed as being electrified (it's still a potential future option) and Barrow isn't even being looked at, while Hull electrification plans don't seem as advanced as reports were making not that long ago.

Then there's the question of what will happen when North TPE need to divert via Brighouse or Wakefield. Again a DEMU would be better than using a 185 and would prevent the next TPE bidder doing like Virgin used to and insisting on using diesel trains on fully electrified routes so that diversions could be covered.

 

[edwin_m]

I can't see 313s appearing on isolated shuttles as this would simply create a number of really small micro-fleets (nano-fleets?). They would have to take over a reasonable number of duties in the same area. Anywhere on the AC network a 313 might be suitable a 315 would be better as they are a bit younger and also simpler. The 313 is basically a DC unit using camshaft control and added pantograph/transformer, very different in maintenance terms from other AC units and with more to go wrong if not properly looked after.

 

[hwl]

The article now says 150 new vehicles, which would indeed be 50 3-car trains.

As for the redundant 313 and GatEx fleets, hard to see anything beyond scrap - perhaps some short term use further north for the former where 3-car units are needed, and perhaps some Brighton Express duties for the latter until all the Thameslink 377s are freed up?

Chris

Govia presentation (page 8) says 25x 6car not 50x 3 car...

 

[HSTEd]

Essentially the 315s are often chalked in for the Valleys.

Any early CP6 projectors that would call for these units?
You coudl shuffle them to Northern as a general replacement for Pacers on electric routes I suppose.

 

[northwichcat]

You coudl shuffle them to Northern as a general replacement for Pacers on electric routes I suppose.

Can you name 1 Northern route where a 3 car toilet-less 313 would be suitable, noting that most stations in the North don't have toilets and the service frequency on a lot of routes is hourly?

 

[HSTEd]

You could run more EMU services to Hazel Grove by changing the routes around, or run a Preston-Hazel Grove train under electric traction now that a northern route out of Manchester is electrified.

I thought one of the major reasons frequency was only hourly was because of lack of rolling stock? A flood of newly available units would remove this restriction and since the routes are timed for Pacers they should be able to keep time.

 

[Jonny]

I think dual powered an order DEMUs could help out, not just to allow more effective use of OHEs initially but longer term as well.

The Network Rail Regional Urban Market Study recommends still having a few daily services between Manchester and Barrow/Windermere post-North West electrification but Windermere isn't confirmed as being electrified (it's still a potential future option) and Barrow isn't even being looked at, while Hull electrification plans don't seem as advanced as reports were making not that long ago.

Then there's the question of what will happen when North TPE need to divert via Brighouse or Wakefield. Again a DEMU would be better than using a 185 and would prevent the next TPE bidder doing like Virgin used to and insisting on using diesel trains on fully electrified routes so that diversions could be covered.

Do you mean an electro-diesel multiple unit (EDMU) that can run off diesel or overhead wires? Sorry to be pedantic, but a DEMU is used to describe multiple units where a diesel engine drives a generator/alternator, which is used to power traction motors (such as (Super)Voyagers and Meridians) without an external electric supply.

 

[northwichcat]

You could run more EMU services to Hazel Grove by changing the routes around, or run a Preston-Hazel Grove train under electric traction now that a northern route out of Manchester is electrified.

I thought one of the major reasons frequency was only hourly was because of lack of rolling stock? A flood of newly available units would remove this restriction and since the routes are timed for Pacers they should be able to keep time.

I thought we were talking about the 3 car 313s with around 200 seats? Preston-Hazel Grove services are operated by 4 car Sprinters at peak time with up to 300 seats and they aren't that many empty seats on some services. But maybe you're assuming 6 car operation with a few platforms like Davenport being lengthened?

There aren't any plans to make Hazel Grove-Preston more frequent. In fact the long term future of the route as it stands isn't guaranteed - Stockport to Preston will stay as is but Hazel Grove may not remain the origin. (Network Rail analysis stated the Hazel Grove path could be more effectively used for a half-hourly Buxton service or a Manchester-Hazel Grove-Chinley service.)

EDIT: Just realised you seem to be talking about diverting Hazel Grove to Preston via Wigan! Apart from there would probably be no paths to do that it would be pointless as Northern services between Manchester and Preston form the local services. Even TPE services on that route include a popular call at Bolton. That would be like diverting the LM Crewe-London service away from the Trent Valley.

 

[petersi]

I thought we were talking about the 3 car 313s with around 200 seats? Preston-Hazel Grove services are operated by 4 car Sprinters at peak time with up to 300 seats and they aren't that many empty seats on some services.

There aren't any plans to make Hazel Grove-Preston more frequent. In fact the long term future of the route as it stands isn't guaranteed - Stockport to Preston will stay as is but Hazel Grove may not remain the origin. (Network Rail analysis stated the Hazel Grove path could be more effectively used for a half-hourly Buxton service or a Manchester-Hazel Grove-Chinley service.)

In the south east the 313's server stations with no toilets and only get one train an hour in each direction. With maxim journey time of just under an hour.

There are bound to be some routes were they could be used if not in the northwest then in yourkshire.

The fact of the matter the 313's will be over 40 Years old by 2018. They are going to need work to add PIS etc. It is very unlikely that it will be economic to cascade these units, even if there are suitable routes.

In summary for cascading the 313's
Just because its possible dose not mean its sensible

 

[northwichcat]

In the south east the 313's server stations with no toilets and only get one train an hour in each direction. With maxim journey time of just under an hour.

How many people make journeys of around an hour and don't have toilets at either their origin or destination station?

In the north you can make a journey from a toilet-less station, change at another toilet-less station and end your journey at a toilet-less station e.g. Eccles to Helsby changing at Earlestown which can take up to 1 hr 32 assuming no missed connection or cancellation.

Northern even serve some very rural stations which don't have a public toilet for miles, so if a train has been cancelled you could have faced a long wait before even boarding a train. While on Sundays a lot of lines have an infrequent service.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Govia presentation (page 8) says 25x 6car not 50x 3 car...

Makes sense (so wont happen !). The GN 313s spend most/all of their time running round
in pairs - thats if I remember correctly from their early years ?. Benefit is that the result will be 50% less cabs and equipment to pay for, instead more seats (or space for a DDA loo).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many people make journeys of around an hour and don't have toilets at either their origin or destination station?

Scratching my head a bit but around the toilet less West Croydon station there are plenty of routes served by toilet less 455s. On the routes along the South coast (served by Southern 313s) I would be surprised if many stations have toilets. I recall wondering where there was a loo in 315 land on a service originating from Liverpool Street.

But I agree toilets should be available. Which, on the metro routes, I suppose is why the newer 377/6s have toilets. For a temporary stop-gap measure toilet-less trains should be OK IF the previous trains also had no toilet. Question occurs to me is how many units in Northern land currently have no toilets ?. Compare that to the lot of travelers around London using toilet-less 455s, 313s, 315s(iirc?), 376s & 378s. But then I suppose a train with no loo at all is more allowable than a non-DDA compliant loo train.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Typical UK obsession with toilets - the 313's have some years of life left in them - so cascade for now and get better later on - I do not recall Valley line trains having toilets - or 4SUB / 4 EPB either. Anyway - look at the latest ATOC rolling stock report which says that most "BR era" electrics can run for 40+ years . Author a well qualified rolling stock engineer. Don't think 313's have corrosion , so a new interior is possible for not much dosh.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Makes sense (so wont happen !). The GN 313s spend most/all of their time running round
in pairs - thats if I remember correctly from their early years ?. Benefit is that the result will be 50% less cabs and equipment to pay for, instead more seats (or space for a DDA loo).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Scratching my head a bit but around the toilet less West Croydon station there are plenty of routes served by toilet less 455s. On the routes along the South coast (served by Southern 313s) I would be surprised if many stations have toilets. I recall wondering where there was a loo in 315 land on a service originating from Liverpool Street.

But I agree toilets should be available. Which, on the metro routes, I suppose is why the newer 377/6s have toilets. For a temporary stop-gap measure toilet-less trains should be OK IF the previous trains also had no toilet. Question occurs to me is how many units in Northern land currently have no toilets ?. Compare that to the lot of travelers around London using toilet-less 455s, 313s, 315s(iirc?), 376s & 378s. But then I suppose a train with no loo at all is more allowable than a non-DDA compliant loo train.

Great response ! Well done

 

[DarloRich]

Typical UK obsession with toilets - the 313's have some years of life left in them - so cascade for now and get better later on

Exactly - get them moved somewhere where they can do some good in the short term while something better is procured.

 

[Manchester77]

Probably one of the routes suitable for 313s in the north west would be the Piccadilly-Airport stopper which would probably release a few 323s.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Any routes operated by a pacer or a 153 that are under the wires all the way? Could free up a few DMUs for elsewhere

 

[Wavertreelad]

Merseyrail could take a few especially if the network was extended. It could allow some more 507/508 sets to be combined to six car sets to reduce overcrowding at peak times and help fill the gap prior to any Merseyrail order for new stock being delivered, although the 507/508's are also supposed to go about the same time.

 

[WatcherZero]

Probably one of the routes suitable for 313s in the north west would be the Piccadilly-Airport stopper which would probably release a few 323s.

Thats essentially a line heavily used by 90/100mph capable traffic and the 313's have a max speed of 75, they would have to have very good acceleration to not reduce capacity for other services.

 

[47802]

Exactly - get them moved somewhere where they can do some good in the short term while something better is procured.

Really as someone used to traveling on Northern Junk I had a trip on a GN 313 a couple of months ago and my god what a piece of clapped out junk they are, and of course its another 4 years before they get replaced.

Ok they might do as very short term stop gap, but to be kept long term I imagine they would need a significant amount spending on them, plus im sure the publicity will be great, yes we are replacing your 30 year old Railbuses but with trains that are 10 years older, with no Toilet.