Pacers with Wi-Fi!?

[stuartmoss]

I'm guessing this is a case of sloppy journalism, and it is class 333s that are being referred to, but the picture made me chuckle anyway.

Quote for visually impaired members, who may not be able to see the picture or gist of the post: My local newspaper the Wharfe Valley Times, lead with a front page story saying that Northern Rail Services between Leeds & Skipton / Ilkley / Bradford would be fitted with wi-fi for passengers. This is usually Class 333s, but along with the story was a picture of a Northern Pacer. I made the post as I found the thought of Wifi on a 142 quite amusing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Came on, young man. As a film-maker, you should be able to display a visual image that can be seen in full on this new thread....:roll:

 

[ert47]

That's news to me! Was there any mention of air con being fitted? :P

 

[47802]

Well if you put Wi-Fi on a Railbus you will double its value

 

[stuartmoss]

Came on, young man. As a film-maker, you should be able to display a visual image that can be seen in full on this new thread....:roll:

Sorry I was clueless how to do it, but I'm thankful to whoever did. I'm not that young either, but thanks for thinking I am!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Another media use of a "stock" picture. A pity that Pacers are thought of as a suitable example to be used, considering the others they must have recourse to.

 

[Welshman]

The kind of journalism which resorts not only to "stock" pictures, but also to "stock" clichés!

Whenever the railway does something of which the paper approves, it's "on the right track"

And if those plans don't come to fruition, they've "hit the buffers"

As when there is flooding, the local fire brigade is always "inundated" with calls, and when a local church has set itself too ambitious a target, it "hasn't a prayer"

Hey-ho!

 

[J123]

Wouldn't be surprised if pacers do get wi-fi. IMO it's not unreasonable to expect all modes of public transport to have free wi-fi nowadays. My local bus company has just installed wi-fi on a selection of rotten old vehicles and its good quality.

 

[northwichcat]

Haven't people heard they'll developing a Pacer app. If you have GPS activated you get a 2 minute warning before the Pacer reaches a sharp bend so you have time to close the windows and get your ear plugs out before the Pacer starts squealing.

 

[Darren R]

When I saw the thread title, a well-known saying about the inability to polish something came to mind!

That's news to me! Was there any mention of air con being fitted? :P

But Pacers are fitted with air-conditioning. It is constructed from a traditional, low-opacity material, and is the very latest in locally-controlled, customer-operated system with a simple, manual interface.

Incidentally, I believe a Smartphone App was being developed which used GPS to alert the user that the next train was formed of a Pacer. However, the project was dropped when the developer realised there was no market for it, due to the fact that passengers could hear a 142 approaching long before they received the App alert!

 

[DownSouth]

Wouldn't be surprised if pacers do get wi-fi. IMO it's not unreasonable to expect all modes of public transport to have free wi-fi nowadays. My local bus company has just installed wi-fi on a selection of rotten old vehicles and its good quality.

Absolutely. If you're happy with it going on a 3G/4G connection instead of a more expensive satellite system, all you need for a simple retro-fit is a suitable power supply to plug it into, which public transport vehicles all have already for things such as lighting, route displays, HVAC, ticket vending machines and so on.

 

[northwichcat]

So does the story relate to the Wi-Fi mention in the Direct Award announcement, which implied certain stations would get Wi-Fi opposed to certain trains or is it an additional scheme?

 

[gazthomas]

Why not, cheap to do and standard on many coaches, a pacer is of course an old bus!

Incidentally, in India at the moment and in Kolkata there are lots of buses that look like a slightly more modern Leyland National 2

 

[Carlisle]

Wouldn't be surprised if pacers do get wi-fi. IMO it's not unreasonable to expect all modes of public transport to have free wi-fi nowadays. My local bus company has just installed wi-fi on a selection of rotten old vehicles and its good quality.

Same thing on the old busses down my way so must be fairly simple to install these days maybe a fairly small unit just needing a power source and somewhere to mount an antenna

 

[hacman]

Absolutely. If you're happy with it going on a 3G/4G connection instead of a more expensive satellite system, all you need for a simple retro-fit is a suitable power supply to plug it into, which public transport vehicles all have already for things such as lighting, route displays, HVAC, ticket vending machines and so on.

Don't forget that for use on a train the hardware has to be manufactured to a standard that can obtain the required rail certifications, and you also tend to need antennas and other hardware too.

Satellite is possible, but doesn't tend to be a popular option as it's expensive and offers little benefit.

Jon

 

[Nean]

Don't forget that for use on a train the hardware has to be manufactured to a standard that can obtain the required rail certifications, and you also tend to need antennas and other hardware too.

Satellite is possible, but doesn't tend to be a popular option as it's expensive and offers little benefit.

Jon

AFAIK the WAPs on trains currently outfitted with WiFi make use of both HSDPA (3G mobile phone, and there's still a fair bit of the UK without reliable 3G) and satellite (for the bits out of range of 3G). Whilst 4G is promising it is still massively limited in range (for now).

The way I see it the major issue is the time and cost taken to outfit the trains with this technology, especially with so many other more pressing matters to attend to. There is also the problem of "Where do I put this box" due to the necessary antennae (there would need to be at least 1 unit per carriage in order for people to get a decent speed) and the fact that things take up space. Also in order for the HSDPA/satellite signals to be sent/received at their maximum possible strength the antenna for that would most likely be roof mounted to avoid the brilliant EM-blocker that is the metal body... All that put together makes for one hard case to WiFi-enable all the current stock, though I could see it being easily built into newer stock.

Anyway I may be biased because the 4 hour round trip home is the only time I don't have full WiFi so I can actually get work done...

 

[northwichcat]

Another media use of a "stock" picture. A pity that Pacers are thought of as a suitable example to be used, considering the others they must have recourse to.

Well it turns out Northern's marketing team are guilty of choosing pictures of Northern trains as well. A leaflet that was delivered with my post advertising Duo fares to Manchester from Mid-Cheshire line stations shows a 323!

 

[Emyr]

well it turns out northern's marketing team are guilty of choosing pictures of northern trains as well. A leaflet that was delivered with my post advertising duo fares to manchester from mid-cheshire line stations shows a 323!

cp9?

 

[jon0844]

The Wi-Fi system that is used by Greater Anglia (379s) and East Coast has a roof dome, and uses a mix of satellite and mobile data.

I think it's quite a modular system (not sure how much room it takes up, but probably a fair bit), so it can't be that hard to add 4G by simply upgrading that bit of hardware and the antenna (if required). I do wonder if they already use DC-HSDPA on the 3G side (which can give speeds of up to 43.2Mbps) and also what network is used? Three would offer the fastest speeds where it has coverage, but no 2G fallback for the very rural areas - although I expect Three would have most of the ECML covered, and certainly the route the 379s run.

I tend to cut out the middleman and just use my own data connection. With no limits on my data, and no extra charge for 4G, I can get speeds of 20-50Mbps on the move - which seems rather good, given I get only 6.5Mbps at home on my fixed broadband!

 

[hacman]

AFAIK the WAPs on trains currently outfitted with WiFi make use of both HSDPA (3G mobile phone, and there's still a fair bit of the UK without reliable 3G) and satellite (for the bits out of range of 3G). Whilst 4G is promising it is still massively limited in range (for now).



The way I see it the major issue is the time and cost taken to outfit the trains with this technology, especially with so many other more pressing matters to attend to. There is also the problem of "Where do I put this box" due to the necessary antennae (there would need to be at least 1 unit per carriage in order for people to get a decent speed) and the fact that things take up space. Also in order for the HSDPA/satellite signals to be sent/received at their maximum possible strength the antenna for that would most likely be roof mounted to avoid the brilliant EM-blocker that is the metal body... All that put together makes for one hard case to WiFi-enable all the current stock, though I could see it being easily built into newer stock.



Anyway I may be biased because the 4 hour round trip home is the only time I don't have full WiFi so I can actually get work done...

The APs are not the part that connects to the network. Generally you have APs in each car, connecting to a central control system. There are more basic "combined" products available, but they're most often aimed at the bus market. A 2 car pacer could make use of such a system easily thinking about it. In my experience 3 car may be pushing it though.

The antennas for most systems are roof mounted, for the reasons you state, but you'd be surprised how much of the rail network has good 3G coverage when using a decent external antenna.

Satellite coverage is usually slow with massive latency, and costs a small fortune. You'd be surprised how little it's actually used, both in the uk and further afield.

For areas with no reception, and this is mostly man-made structures such as tunnels and station roofs, there are other technologies beside satellite that are far more effective, both technically and financially.

The type of stock actually makes rather little difference to the feasibility of WiFi. As with all things in the rail industry, it's cost/benefit.

Jon

 

[northwichcat]

cp9?

Well if the Airport spur gets extended to the Mid-Cheshire line in CP6 (or beyond) then electrification could be a possibility given most Manchester Airport services by then will be electric. If not then I don't think it's likely until the circa year 2000 builds of DMU start to get withdrawn (like the 170s and 175s.)

Although I hope the current fares shown in the leaflet remain valid until EMUs are introduced on the line.