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Northern Rail's unsuccessful RRA attempt

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Merseysider

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A situation arose this March where I asked a member of Northern staff, before boarding the train, for an over riding excess to Levenshulme on a ticket I already held. He refused and told me to "do it at Lev booking office". I couldn't be bothered arguing (he might not have even known how to do an excess) so I got on the train and was jovially greeted upon alighting by a group of Northern RPIs.

After a fair bit of 'discussion', detail taking and numerous members of Northern staff claiming they had never issued an excess before, the Station Manager (?) arrived and after rummaging around piles of paper, managed to correctly issue the required excess.

You can guess what happened next. Their RRA 1889 letter arrived a few weeks later, alleging fare evasion and carrying the exciting prospect of prosecution if I didn't reply within 14 days of the letter's date. (They'd dated it then sent it 5 days later!)

Thankfully, after 2/3 letters & emails each way and me chasing them up, their prosecutors decided this week to close the case.

So:
>Do Northern staff not receive training on issuing excess tickets?
>Are there no ramifications for refusing to sell tickets to passengers?
>Has anyone experienced a similar situation?
 
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bb21

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I have managed to obtain overdistance excesses before from Northern guards, but that was on the east side, so it may not apply to those on the west side.
 

Merseysider

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I have managed to obtain overdistance excesses before from Northern guards, but that was on the east side, so it may not apply to those on the west side.

I've travelled about the NW quite a bit, not the East though. The only Northern employee who's ever managed to do it without fuss is an excellent female member of staff at Salford Crescent (And a Virgin employee at MAN once).

Asking for an excess aywhere else is just asking for trouble, or weird looks, I've found.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....So:
>Do Northern staff not receive training on issuing excess tickets?
>Are there no ramifications for refusing to sell tickets to passengers?
>Has anyone experienced a similar situation?

>If a ticket office is using a STAR machine (if they are tapping on the screen to issue tickets it's STAR) they will have been trained how to do it.

>Depends on the situation. If a complaint isn't made at some point it is doubtful that the staff will be told they have done wrong. It's also very sad to say some staff just won't care.

>Not from Northern. Though I have been refused excess fares at Euston before.

Northern's 'West Side' has very few RPAs and no RPIs that I know of. Most of the 'revenue team' on this side of the Pennines are agency staff.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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So:
>Do Northern staff not receive training on issuing excess tickets?
>Are there no ramifications for refusing to sell tickets to passengers?
>Has anyone experienced a similar situation?
Of your three questions, only the middle one interests me. But the way it is phrased, it is doomed to be almost unanswerable.
Apart from the double negative ('no' and 'refuse'), it is imprecise in the subject of the enquiry ('are there none'), is disconnected from the scenario posed in post No 1 (the refusal), and unclear in context (the scenario used to illustrate the question doesn't appear to me to be a refusal).

If you could clarify the question, I'd be happy to try to answer it it.
If an inability to sell a specific ticket is being conflated with a refusal, or a lack of time to sell a specific ticket is being conflated with a refusal, or a lack of technical knowledge and experience is being conflated with a refusal, then I would be grateful if you could correct those mistakes before I put any time into a considered reply.
Thank you.
 
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Merseysider

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>If a ticket office is using a STAR machine (if they are tapping on the screen to issue tickets it's STAR) they will have been trained how to do it.
The employee in question was using an Avantix, so he may not be familiar with the STAR system.
>Depends on the situation. If a complaint isn't made at some point it is doubtful that the staff will be told they have done wrong. It's also very sad to say some staff just won't care.
I did make a complaint and got a day's free travel on Northern for my trouble. I like it when staff are easy to get on with, but I've found that when staff in Northernland are unfriendly, they're really unfriendly.

Of your three questions, only the middle one interests me. But the way it is phrased, it is doomed to be almost unanswerable.
Apart from the double negative ('no' and 'refuse'), it is imprecise in the subject of the enquiry ('are there none'), is disconnected from the scenario posed in post No 1 (the refusal), and unclear in context (the scenario used to illustrate the question doesn't appear to me to be a refusal).

If you could clarify the question, I'd be happy to try to answer it it.
If an inability to sell a specific ticket is being conflated with a refusal, or a lack of time to sell a specific ticket is being conflated with a refusal, or a lack of technical knowledge and experience is being conflated with a refusal, then I would be grateful if you could correct those mistakes before I put any time into a considered reply.
Thank you.

Hi Dave.

I'll do my best to clarify.

Whether the Northern employee was unable (due to lack of training etc) or was unwilling [for whatever reason] is beyond my judgement. However, lack of time to issue the ticket would not have been a factor as there are four trains per hour to Levenshulme, he had a colleague (also with an Avantix) standing next to him; so no danger of forming massive queues.

I asked for the over riding excess at the first available opportunity, before boarding the train to Levenshulme. I would be hard pressed to post exact details of the ticket openly, but could PM if necessary, as it's one that raises eyebrows and is about 25% cheaper than the one that most people buy.

The extent of the refusal was:

"Hi, I need an excess on this ticket, can you do it to Levenshulme please?"

"No, go do it at Lev booking office" *turns away and mutters to colleague*

So, clarified, I suppose it boils down to:

>if the Northern employee who was issuing tickets, had not received training on the issuing of an excess, it is obviously not him who is at fault. So if this is the case, what consequence would there be for the TOC?

>If, however, this member of staff had received full training on issuing an excess ticket, but couldn't be bothered with faffing around/couldn't remember/didn't fully understand what's valid and what isn't, (and thus didn't want to risk it) what consequence would there be for the employee?

NRCoC said:
Train Companies must:
• Make tickets and reservations available at stations, over the internet or by
telephone as appropriate.

Either way, it is hardly acceptable to request a valid excess before boarding a train, be told "no" and be delayed by half an hour upon alighting due to hassle with revenue protection staff, and issues with finding a member of staff who can issue the excess.

I hope I've clarified my question. If there's anything else you feel I could add or that I may have missed, in order to make the situation clearer, please do not hesitate to say so.
 

Fare-Cop

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A situation arose this March where I asked a member of Northern staff, before boarding the train, for an over riding excess to Levenshulme on a ticket I already held. He refused and told me to "do it at Lev booking office". I couldn't be bothered arguing (he might not have even known how to do an excess) so I got on the train and was jovially greeted upon alighting by a group of Northern RPIs.

After a fair bit of 'discussion', detail taking and numerous members of Northern staff claiming they had never issued an excess before, the Station Manager (?) arrived and after rummaging around piles of paper, managed to correctly issue the required excess.


Before any considered response can be given I'd like the answer to two further questions too please.

You say you were 'greeted upon alighting by a group of Northern RPIs'

Firstly, exactly whereabouts were these RPIs located at Levenshulme station?

Secondly, in relation to the supposed Station Manager, was the required excess issued after your interaction with the RPIs was completed?
 

Emyr

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I recently missed by connection at Piccadilly and the VT aales desk were happy to Excess me the 70p to swap my Bolton-Chelford for Bolton-Knutsford. I didn't know about Excesses at the time, but didn't fancy a 55 minute wait when an option would depart in 10 minutes...
 

Merseysider

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Before any considered response can be given I'd like the answer to two further questions too please.

You say you were 'greeted upon alighting by a group of Northern RPIs'

Firstly, exactly whereabouts were these RPIs located at Levenshulme station?

Secondly, in relation to the supposed Station Manager, was the required excess issued after your interaction with the RPIs was completed?

Imagine as you walk into the station with the ticket office directly in front of you. To your right, you have the tunnel going under the tracks to the southbound platform. It was just before you walk under this tunnel, that the RPIs were present, just before you have the opportunity to walk up the steps to the northbound platform.

And yes, that is correct. I walked up to them, told them I'd been told to buy the excess here, at Levenshulme and showed the ticket. I was told I could leave after my conversation with them but I stayed and waited for the manager to arrive in order that I may buy the excess.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I recently missed by connection at Piccadilly and the VT sales desk were happy to Excess me the 70p to swap my Bolton-Chelford for Bolton-Knutsford. I didn't know about Excesses at the time, but didn't fancy a 55 minute wait when an option would depart in 10 minutes...

I've had a Wigan - Mauldeth Road ticket excessed into Wigan - Manchester Airport (so i could get the train to Levenshulme - missed connection to MAU).

I only got a real understanding of how excess tickets work in February this year:p
 
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ANorthernGuard

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A situation arose this March where I asked a member of Northern staff, before boarding the train, for an over riding excess to Levenshulme on a ticket I already held. He refused and told me to "do it at Lev booking office". I couldn't be bothered arguing (he might not have even known how to do an excess) so I got on the train and was jovially greeted upon alighting by a group of Northern RPIs.

After a fair bit of 'discussion', detail taking and numerous members of Northern staff claiming they had never issued an excess before, the Station Manager (?) arrived and after rummaging around piles of paper, managed to correctly issue the required excess.

You can guess what happened next. Their RRA 1889 letter arrived a few weeks later, alleging fare evasion and carrying the exciting prospect of prosecution if I didn't reply within 14 days of the letter's date. (They'd dated it then sent it 5 days later!)

Thankfully, after 2/3 letters & emails each way and me chasing them up, their prosecutors decided this week to close the case.

So:
>Do Northern staff not receive training on issuing excess tickets?
>Are there no ramifications for refusing to sell tickets to passengers?
>Has anyone experienced a similar situation?

The joys of g4s. Excesses are easy I don,t know why they either refused or didn't know how to do one.

 

Haywain

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So, clarified, I suppose it boils down to:

>If, however, this member of staff had received full training on issuing an excess ticket, but couldn't be bothered with faffing around/couldn't remember/didn't fully understand what's valid and what isn't, (and thus didn't want to risk it) what consequence would there be for the employee?

The consequence may well depend on whether the matter is reported, and then what the reason was and whether this was a one-off or a regular occurrence. Ultimately, the consequence could be anything between nothing happening at all or finding himself dismissed, but we know far too little about the employee to speculate.
 

northwichcat

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The consequence may well depend on whether the matter is reported, and then what the reason was and whether this was a one-off or a regular occurrence. Ultimately, the consequence could be anything between nothing happening at all or finding himself dismissed, but we know far too little about the employee to speculate.

One Northern guard a few years back refused to issue an excess on a service I was on and got in to an argument with a passenger after insisting she should buy an additional single ticket when the excess fare would have been zero. On another occasion the same guard was standing around chatting on the platform when the dispatcher was ready to dispatch the train. A member of train staff employed by another TOC shouted at him to get on with his job. I don't know how many other incidents he was involved in. The next time I saw him he was in a G4S uniform checking Metrolink tickets!
 

RJ

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I've travelled about the NW quite a bit, not the East though. The only Northern employee who's ever managed to do it without fuss is an excellent female member of staff at Salford Crescent (And a Virgin employee at MAN once).

Asking for an excess aywhere else is just asking for trouble, or weird looks, I've found.

I got an overdistance excess issued at Hazel Grove ticket office without any issues.
 

Tetchytyke

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I've been able to sort out a single to return excess at Leeds station excess fares window before. Most staff know what they're doing and are happy to do it.
 

tsr

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I have found one or two Southern guards claim that "zero-fare" excesses cannot be issued on an Avantix machine, but they have politely recommended use of the nearest appropriate ticket office instead.
 

yorkie

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I recently missed by connection at Piccadilly and the VT aales desk were happy to Excess me the 70p to swap my Bolton-Chelford for Bolton-Knutsford. I didn't know about Excesses at the time, but didn't fancy a 55 minute wait when an option would depart in 10 minutes...
Strictly speaking that's not "over-distance" so an excess does not apply, or at least there's no entitlement to such an excess.

But it's great customer service to apply discretion, and a good solution to the disruption you experienced (I guess you were able to arrange a lift or something).

I've also experienced great customer service at MAN by Virgin on more than one occasion. (However I am also aware that not all staff there are consistent with that)

With 'over-distance' my advice is always to avoid a situation where you ever need such an excess, where practicable. In some cases it is, unfortunately, unavoidable, and at those times, you need a lot of luck to find someone willing & able to do it!
 

Emyr

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But it's great customer service to apply discretion, and a good solution to the disruption you experienced (I guess you were able to arrange a lift or something).
!

Lucky me :D

Knutsford is about a mine further from my workplace than Chelford, but I was completing my journey by bicycle, so no problem.

The 0703 to Crewe is a lightly-loaded 323, whilst the 0717 to Chester is comfortably full from Stockport and reaches painfully full by calling at Navigation Road, Altrincham and Hale. It's normally a 150 or 156, but is highly likely to be a 142.
 

northwichcat

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whilst the 0717 to Chester is comfortably full from Stockport and reaches painfully full by calling at Navigation Road, Altrincham and Hale. It's normally a 150 or 156, but is highly likely to be a 142.

The 07:17 Manchester-Chester is the busiest Mid-Cheshire line service. John Oates, the chairman of MCRUA wrote the following about that service towards the end of last year:

Regular readers will remember that the free faith school transport funded by Cheshire East Council was discontinued from September 2012. This led to even more scholars using the Mid Cheshire line to get to the 4 schools and The Mid Cheshire College sites adjacent to Greenbank station, the main train being the 0717 from Piccadilly arriving at Knutsford at 0800 and Greenbank at 0818. The following train, an hour later is too late for most of these.

Meanwhile, Barclays at Radbroke Hall has increased the number of training courses run there for their employees, not just those from the UK, but also many from Bangalore who come to train here before returning to staff the helplines run from Bangalore.

Also, the number of scholars from South Trafford using the line to attend Knutsford Academy continues at well over 100 a day.

Our passenger counts have shown patronage continuing to grow fast.

During school term time, the 0717 from Piccadilly loads to around 270 into Knutsford. Around 30 join it at Stockport, another 30 at Navigation Road, over 100 at Altrincham, more than 30 at Hale, some at Ashley and 5-10 at Mobberley. At Knutsford around 200 leave the train, whilst a further 60 join it, most of these going to Greenbank, some to Northwich. A further 5-10 join at Plumley, 30-40 at Lostock Gralam and 40-50 at Northwich, with around 150 leaving at Greenbank.

The 1602 and 1702 from Chester also suffer from very heavy loadings with the return flows. The 1502 copes well, being a 4-car train. The afternoon trains benefit from the scholar flows in the main being earlier than the flows of those returning from work.

Many of you will be aware that the station dwell times were increased by 3 minutes last May to cope with our larger passenger loads. However, the extra dwell time added to most trains is not proving to give enough time to get everybody on and off our (mainly) 2-car trains.

The 0717 is diagrammed for a 2-car class 150 unit this having 20 metre long coaches. These mainly have between 130 and 140 seats, depending upon where they were inherited from, but cope with over 300 including standees before people are left behind at stations; next train 1 hour. Some days, a class 156 unit is provided; these have 23 metre coaches. These have around 150 seats and can cope with around 300 including standees and although having 4 doors, these being single-leaf doors means that it takes much longer to get passengers on and off trains than with the 4 double leaf doors on the class 150s.

It’s not unusual for the service to be formed of a 2-car class 142 unit. These have 16 metre long coaches, three double leaf doors a side and between 108 and around 130 seats, again depending upon their heritage. We used to think from experience of Chester Race Days that the most number of passengers it was possible to get on a class 142 was around 230 people. Now we know that around 270 can be accomodated, though it does take a long time to get everyone on and off and does rely upon passengers getting on top of the luggage racks by the doors and also sitting under those luggage racks. This is where many of the smaller children end up sitting on other children’s laps.

Some days when formed of a class 142 everyone can’t get on. We know that on 9 October the service was operated by 142060. 11 passengers were left behind at Hale, 2 at Ashley and 7 at Mobberley. With the next train being an hour later, this means scholars are arriving late for lessons and Barclays Bank workers and others late for work.

A year ago around 60 were using our services to get to Radbroke Hall, now it’s over 100.

Barclays have recently upgraded the transport used to transfer staff to Radbroke Hall from Knutsford from smaller coaches to 53-seaters or bigger, though even these are not proving to have enough capacity some days.

All this “crowding” (as DfT tweely puts it) also means that the trains run late. Last week the 0717 arrived in Chester 5 or more minutes late on 4 occasions (offically “late”) and this is after the extra 3 minutes added to the timetable last May. The previous week it was late on all 5 days – 6, 7, 13, 15 and 10 minutes late respectively.

In early November, there was a spate of class 142 operation on 7, 8, 13 and 14. We complained. As far as we know, no-one was left behind on 7, 8 and 13 November, but on 14 November the service was operated by 142087, one of the low capacity 142s with 2+2 seating inherited from Arriva Trains Northern. Passengers were left behind including all 7 at Mobberley.

Northern are aware of these problems from remonstrations made by MCRUA, the passengers and others.

None of this is good for any of us, Northern, the passengers, those left behind or for the economy of Knutsford. We’ve even suggested that as a short-term fix since Northern and/or DfT seem unable to find more trains, that they hire buses and run these between Altrincham, Hale and direct to Knutsford Academy and/or Radbroke Hall to create space for others on the trains.

In our view this train should be 4 carriages or else a further 2 carriage train should be run half an hour later. Northern are aware of this view, as are TfGM, Cheshire East, CWaC and others. Meanwhile, this “crowding” is inhibiting further growth and increasing the already bad road congestion in Knutsford in the mornings, as people who have the option of being able to drive find they have to, as they don’t want to risk being unable to board the train.
 

Emyr

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Barclays now has a single coach from Chelford in the morning and a few services in the evening, but I don't see many staff using it as they'll be using season tickets and Chelford lacks useful bus services in case they don't get a service that reached Chelford before the staff coach.
 

northwichcat

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Barclays now has a single coach from Chelford in the morning and a few services in the evening, but I don't see many staff using it as they'll be using season tickets and Chelford lacks useful bus services in case they don't get a service that reached Chelford before the staff coach.

The 27 bus used to provide an option for any Barclays workers from Chelford but since it changed to a commercial service operated by a single bus (opposed to 2 buses) that link went.
 

ANorthernGuard

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I have never left anyone at any station on the Mid Cheshire line (Regardless of Class of Unit and time of day) Yes it can be a tight squeeze but I always manage to get everyone on!
 

Merseysider

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One Northern guard a few years back refused to issue an excess on a service I was on and got in to an argument with a passenger after insisting she should buy an additional single ticket when the excess fare would have been zero. On another occasion the same guard was standing around chatting on the platform when the dispatcher was ready to dispatch the train. A member of train staff employed by another TOC shouted at him to get on with his job. I don't know how many other incidents he was involved in. The next time I saw him he was in a G4S uniform checking Metrolink tickets!
There's a great contrast in staff attitudes and no real middle ground. They're either great at their jobs, love it and are friendly towards passengers, or (less commonly) they're rude, impertinent and holier-than-thou.

It's shame that bad impressions given by one employee can tar many more with the same brush.
I have never left anyone at any station on the Mid Cheshire line (Regardless of Class of Unit and time of day) Yes it can be a tight squeeze but I always manage to get everyone on!

We need you on the Manchester - Southport line!
 

DownSouth

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I have never left anyone at any station on the Mid Cheshire line (Regardless of Class of Unit and time of day) Yes it can be a tight squeeze but I always manage to get everyone on!
Were you trained by this bloke?
[youtube]IyCejb9cc_Q[/youtube]
:D
 

34D

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G4S (now replaced by TrainPeople) taking statements with a view to a RRA prosecution? :o How long has this been going on? Are they PACE trained?
 

Merseysider

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G4S (now replaced by TrainPeople) taking statements with a view to a RRA prosecution? :o How long has this been going on? Are they PACE trained?

I'd certainly hope they were adequately PACE trained.
 

Starmill

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Of your three questions, only the middle one interests me. But the way it is phrased, it is doomed to be almost unanswerable.
Apart from the double negative ('no' and 'refuse'), it is imprecise in the subject of the enquiry ('are there none'), is disconnected from the scenario posed in post No 1 (the refusal), and unclear in context (the scenario used to illustrate the question doesn't appear to me to be a refusal).

Well thanks for sharing all that with us; I think you got a much politer response from the OP than this deserves.

If you could clarify the question, I'd be happy to try to answer it it.
If an inability to sell a specific ticket is being conflated with a refusal, or a lack of time to sell a specific ticket is being conflated with a refusal, or a lack of technical knowledge and experience is being conflated with a refusal, then I would be grateful if you could correct those mistakes before I put any time into a considered reply.
Thank you.

This suggests you're incapable of answering it anyway through lack of experience. Just how is somebody supposed to know if the clerk is unwilling or unable, or simply doesn't want the hassle of selling a ticket? What normally happens to me is that if there's so much of a hint of you knowing what you're talking about in terms of ticketing, you are told where to go if the clerk doesn't agree with you. It's a rare ticket clerk who accepts there's something they don't know about (that the passenger asking may or may not know about) and still tries to be as helpful as they can.

This is thoroughly typical behavior from Northern I'm afraid, and a relatively typical complaint of them.
 

Merseysider

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Well thanks for sharing all that with us; I think you got a much politer response from the OP than this deserves.
I appreciate the post starmill :) I can only assume the relevant post was unintentionally brusque.
This suggests you're incapable of answering it anyway through lack of experience. Just how is somebody supposed to know if the clerk is unwilling or unable, or simply doesn't want the hassle of selling a ticket? What normally happens to me is that if there's so much of a hint of you knowing what you're talking about in terms of ticketing, you are told where to go if the clerk doesn't agree with you. It's a rare ticket clerk who accepts there's something they don't know about (that the passenger asking may or may not know about) and still tries to be as helpful as they can.

This is thoroughly typical behavior from Northern I'm afraid, and a relatively typical complaint of them.
(My bold) I must credit Merseyrail on how well-disposed the majority of their staff are in comparison with their Northern Rail comrades. One gateline assistant at LIV (lower) initially thought the RTN portion of my SVR was only valid after 9.30, but didn't kick up a fuss when proven wrong.

A similar situation in Northernland typically sparks WW3.
 
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northwichcat

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I have never left anyone at any station on the Mid Cheshire line (Regardless of Class of Unit and time of day) Yes it can be a tight squeeze but I always manage to get everyone on!

Have you had the misfortune of working the 07:17 Manchester-Chester when it's been allocated an ex-ATN 142? While that's a rare event apparently guards struggle getting everyone on an ex-ATN 142 more than a ex-FNW 142.

The worse one I've heard about in recent times was the 11:02 Chester-Manchester service on Saturday 30th November 2013. According to MCRUA 25 passengers were left behind at Northwich and even more at Knutsford which some of those having turned up for the service an hour earlier and being refused access for a second time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
G4S (now replaced by TrainPeople) taking statements with a view to a RRA prosecution? :o How long has this been going on? Are they PACE trained?

The G4S contract in the former FNW area was replaced by a STM Security contract. Trainpeople had a separate contract in Yorkshire but STM Security are also employing RPIs based in the Leeds area: http://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/STM-Sec...e-Revenue-Collection-Officer-4924682ce379258d so Trainpeople may have lost out to STM Security as well. STM Security RPI wear florescent jackets which say something along the lines of Northern Rail Revenue Protection Team on the back.
 

Merseysider

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The G4S contract in the former FNW area was replaced by a STM Security contract. Trainpeople had a separate contract in Yorkshire but STM Security are also employing RPIs based in the Leeds area: http://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/STM-Sec...e-Revenue-Collection-Officer-4924682ce379258d so Trainpeople may have lost out to STM Security as well. STM Security RPI wear florescent jackets which say something along the lines of Northern Rail Revenue Protection Team on the back.

I can't definitively say whether there have been any staff changes on the ground or if it's just the contract that's changed, but the 'new' STM people at MAN seem to be doing a much more thorough job of checking tickets than their old G4S counterparts did.

This can only be a good thing.
 
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