Loop Line and Break of Journey

[derby]

Hi,

I have a ticket from Hampton Wick to Welwyn Garden City return, with Hampton Wick being on the London Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Richmond-Hampton Wick-Wimbledon-Clapham Junction-London Waterloo loop.

I travelled out on the shortest route from Hampton Wick via Kingston to London Waterloo, and on to Welwyn Garden City.

This evening I want to travel back via Richmond and break my journey there.

Is this allowed as it is a loop line and there are direct trains?

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Can't check the NRG at the moment, but the direct train rule would not apply as it is not a direct train between the origin and destination.

 

[derby]

I mean, I believe I can get that a train London Waterloo-Richmond-Hampton Wick as it is a direct train with no changes.

By being on a 'permitted' train/route can one not simply break one's journey?

 

[bb21]

A direct train is only automatically on a permitted route if it is a direct train between the origin and destination, so in your case it needs to be one between Welwyn Garden City and Hampton Wick if you want to use the direct train rule.

It may be permitted because it is a mapped route, but as I said I can't check that atm.

 

[derby]

Oh I see.

When you put in London Waterloo to Hampton Wick on NRE is shows results for both ways around the loop at the same price...?

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

I have a ticket from Hampton Wick to Welwyn Garden City return, with Hampton Wick being on the London Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Richmond-Hampton Wick-Wimbledon-Clapham Junction-London Waterloo loop.

I travelled out on the shortest route from Hampton Wick via Kingston to London Waterloo, and on to Welwyn Garden City.

This evening I want to travel back via Richmond and break my journey there.

Is this allowed as it is a loop line and there are direct trains?

Thanks.

It is allowed if it is a mapped route shown in the Routeing Guide. The Routeing Guide can be found here: http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide Edit: this has now been confirmed to be the case (see below), so you're fine.

It's obviously not valid under the shortest route rule, nor would it be deemed valid under the through trains rule.

 

[OwlMan]

It is valid - both Kingston & Twickenham pass the fares check.

 

[ryan125hst]

It is allowed if it is a mapped route shown in the Routeing Guide. The Routeing Guide can be found here: http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide

Are the new maps not available as a PDF version? As useful as it is to see it on a Google Map, I would have liked a PDF version to be available as well. I've managed to locate one version of the maps as a PDF, but it's the old version of them (the maps and codes are different now). It must be difficult to access the maps as they are on some devices?

 

[bb21]

They are not available in pdf form any more

 

[ryan125hst]

They are not available in pdf form any more

That's a shame. Do you know why they have done this? I'll try it on my phone later, but I'm sure a PDF would be easier to access on it.

 

[bb21]

No idea. Sorry. The cynic in me thinks that it's so they could make sneaky changes without people noticing.

 

[Deerfold]

That's a shame. Do you know why they have done this? I'll try it on my phone later, but I'm sure a PDF would be easier to access on it.

You don't think they're trying to make the routeing guide easier for the public to use, do you?

 

[bb21]

Oh I see.

When you put in London Waterloo to Hampton Wick on NRE is shows results for both ways around the loop at the same price...?

Your mistake is in thinking that the Routeing Guide is recursive, ie. Welwyn Garden City to Hampton Wick is permitted via London, so its permitted routes include all permitted routes between London and Hampton Wick. It does not necessarily, so you cannot check what is permitted between Welwyn and Hampton Wick by asking NRE what is permitted between London and Hampton Wick. Common mistake though.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Your mistake is in thinking that the Routeing Guide is recursive, ie. Welwyn Garden City to Hampton Wick is permitted via London, so its permitted routes include all permitted routes between London and Hampton Wick. It does not necessarily, so you cannot check what is permitted between Welwyn and Hampton Wick by asking NRE what is permitted between London and Hampton Wick. Common mistake though.

Except that for a via-London journey that is in fact how you calculate the routes! The RG just shows LONDON (plus another route via the N London Line) so it's the one exception to the non-recursive rule. But, as you say, it is indeed generally the case that it's not recursive, e.g. Derby to London is allowed to Euston but Nottingham to London, which is allowed via Derby, is not allowed to Euston.

 

[bb21]

Yes, you are right in terms of mapped routes, but that wouldn't be applicable to the direct trains rule.

No wonder some people get confused.

 

[ryan125hst]

No idea. Sorry. The cynic in me thinks that it's so they could make sneaky changes without people noticing.

Quite possibly. I wonder if they would be able to provide me with a PDF version if I contacted them? Do you think it is worth a try?

 

[button_boxer]

Quite possibly. I wonder if they would be able to provide me with a PDF version if I contacted them? Do you think it is worth a try?

I doubt it. However the KML files for each map can be downloaded from http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/map_XX.kml (replace XX with the map code) so you could load the relevant KMLs into a suitable offline mapping app to get a local copy on your phone - I've just tried this successfully using my copy of MapsWithMe.

 

[Panda]

Here's for hoping the OP would report back on what happened and whether it was allowed. I have asked a similar question before for the loop part (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100077) and I've asked the same thing at Norbiton's ticket office.

At Norbiton, I was told that it is definitely not allowed to travel the "other way around", however, I have continuously investigated and the best reasoning I can come up with is:

Before even looking at the routeing guide, I look at the conditions of carriage, which 13 (a) (i) says that you may travel between stations where you can make the journey without changing trains. It says nothing about destinations which continuously change (at Norbiton trains are advertised as going to Richmond, not to Waterloo and at other points it's to Strawberry Hill, so it's not advertised as going to Waterloo) - I can get on Norbiton and travel via Richmond and even though the announced destination changes along the way, I never have to change trains, so that satisfies the through train criteria, hence it's not necessary to consult the routeing guide.

(EDIT: Also on NRE it shows as a perfectly valid route with 0 changes if I asked to travel from Norbiton to Waterloo and it gives me the option to go both ways around, which again adds to the argument that it is in fact a through train).

That's my opinion and interpretation, but it would be good to know of anyone who has successfully "defended" this or just their tickets worked on the opposite side of the loop. (Or on the flipside, anyone who's ever had issues with it).

The lady at the ticket office was very adamant that I could not travel in the direction of Kingston/Richmond on a Waterloo train using my season ticket to London.

 

[bb21]

OwlMan has already confirmed earlier that both routes are permitted so the OP should not experience problems, hopefully.

NRCoC 13a(i) has no bearing on the OP's case because there is no direct train between the origin and destination.

Norbiton - London Terminals tickets are valid around the loop in both directions due to the direct train rule (as Kingston Loop services are actually London Waterloo - London Waterloo), but that is an entirely different ball game to the OP's case.