Class 165s / 166s - what will happen after electrifiaction?

[LoverOfTrains]

Hi guys! When the GWML gets electrified what will happen to the 165s and 166s? I know that they may be cascaded by Class 319s or 387s but what will happen to the 165s and 166s after thay have been cascaded? Will they be scrapped or will they be transferred to another TOC or route?

Thanks guys!

 

[TheWalrus]

They wont be scrapped not with the shortage of units we have. I think the general idea at the moment is they will go to do Bristol routes.

 

[contrex]

Some will stay with GW Thames area for Reading-Gatwick & Basingstoke but most will go to GW West, which will lose 150s (to ATW) and 142/143/153 (scrap). In the West region there will be some gauge clearance needed and I believe some preliminary work has already started.

 

[swt_passenger]

From the Netwrok Rail CP5 enhancements plan:

To provide infrastructure capability enhancements to enable operation of cascaded DMUs
from the Thames Valley to the West Country.
Scope of works
The constituent parts of the infrastructure capability works are as follows:
 gauge clearance for the cascaded Class 165 and 166 DMU fleet; and
 a review of station operations at all stations where cascaded DMU trains are due to stop;
this may result in platform extensions; selective door opening; revisions to permissive
working for attaching; detaching; platform sharing arrangements and alterations to signal
controls and signal locations to deal with changes to train operations.
The project is in the early stage of scoping and DfT, Network Rail and FGW have
determined that the phased cascade of Class 165 and 166 units will operate over the
following routes:
Group 1 – Core routes (clearance required by December 2016)
 Bristol Temple Meads (BTM) to Cardiff Central.
 Avonmouth to Bristol Parkway plus the Filton chords.
 BTM to Portsmouth.
 BTM to Worcester (including Gloucester).
 Bristol TM to Weymouth.
 BTM to Severn Beach.
 BTM to Portishead (*noting MetroWest Phase 1 proposals).
 BTM to Exeter St Davids (including Weston–super-Mare).
 Routes to and from Bristol St Phillips Marsh depot.
 Swindon to Standish junction.
 Swindon to Salisbury.
 Brighton to Portsmouth.
 Southampton to Poole.
Group 2 – additional routes to Exeter (clearance required by mid-2017)
 Exeter St Davids to Plymouth.
 Exeter St Davids to Barnstaple.
 Exeter St Davids to Axminster.
 Newton Abbot to Paignton.
 Castle Cary to Cogload Junction.
 Frome Loop and Hawkeridge Curve – Westbury.
 Routes to and from Laira depot.
Group 3 – Plymouth to Penzance (clearance requirement to be determined)
 Main line routes only.
 Gunnislake branch.
 St Ives branch.

 

[Lrd]

Why would they be needed Southampton - Poole?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why would they be needed Southampton - Poole?

No one knows why IIRC, but that route section was specifically added in the last FGW franchise ITT, the one that was abandoned:

The Franchise Agreement (paragraph 2.2 of Schedule 1.6), sets out the routes over which the Franchisee is permitted to operate. This has been based on those of the current franchise plus two further routes that have been added following receipt and review of suggestions from Bidders prior to the issue of the ITT. The additional routes over which the Franchisee may also operate if they so wish are:
Southampton Central to Poole from May 2017 onwards only; and
Banbury to Stratford upon Avon.
Bidders are free to operate trains over these routes, subject to fulfilling the other requirements of the Franchise Agreement. Such services will not form part of the TSR. By accepting Bids which include plans for such services, the Department does not guarantee it will support future applications for track access on these routes.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...hment_data/file/3596/invitation-to-tender.pdf

 

[Rapidash]

Huzzah! When will they be appearing in Exeter then? 2199? Heat death of universe? Sorry, shouldn't be cynical. Can we have some three car jobbies? Pretty please?

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I was under the impression they were too wide for the Severn tunnel?

 

[swt_passenger]

I was under the impression they were too wide for the Severn tunnel?

Whatever gave you that idea? That must be yet another railway myth...

 

[LoverOfTrains]

Thanks to everyone who replied. Now I know that they won't be scrapped, yay! Passengers south-west will also be able to go on some more modern DMUs.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Whatever gave you that idea? That must be yet another railway myth...

Something a long standing member of railway staff told me so must be a myth lol

 

[3141]

Interesting that they require clearance between Exeter and Plymouth. When the first two class 165s were being tested one of them went to Hemerdon Bank in Devon to establish that it could re-start on a considerable gradient with only one engine working. So at that time they could be used safely on that route.

As 165s and 166s managed to make it from York, where they were built, to Marylebone and Paddington, and have worked to Stourbridge and visited Ilford depot, Derby, Chinnor, and other off-route places I can't now recall, I suspect that not a great deal of work should be needed to clear them on several of the routes listed.

 

[55009 Alycidon]

These will probably go to Northern

 

[159220]

I dont want to grumble, but a 166 on Cardiff to Portsmouth is totally inadequate. The seating is fine for a short hop for Thames commuters but not for a regional service such as operated by 158s currently. Does someone know whether FGW/ROSCO plan to refurbish the 166 before they take over the 158s in install 2+2 seating?

Of course if they did this, and reconfigured the 166 in include an additional centre car from a 165 to make a 4 car 166, this would be most welcome on Cardiff-Portsmouth!

 

[jimm]

Interesting that they require clearance between Exeter and Plymouth. When the first two class 165s were being tested one of them went to Hemerdon Bank in Devon to establish that it could re-start on a considerable gradient with only one engine working. So at that time they could be used safely on that route.

As 165s and 166s managed to make it from York, where they were built, to Marylebone and Paddington, and have worked to Stourbridge and visited Ilford depot, Derby, Chinnor, and other off-route places I can't now recall, I suspect that not a great deal of work should be needed to clear them on several of the routes listed.

The West country trials were, I have a vague recollection, carried out using a set with the step boards removed, in case platforms posed problems - I think this was also the case when they were moved south after being built.

As a general rule of thumb, the 16xs are fine on any ex-GWR route, but platforms and other structures that have been rebuilt in recent years remain an unknown risk until proper clearance checks are made. In the case of most of the routes likely to see them at some point from 2017 onwards, there's not going to be all that much work to do.

And if East West Rail does open before wiring is completed, some Turbos are likely to be retained in the Thames Valley for this route as an interim measure.

 

[Parallel]

I also agree that the Turbos aren't going to be great for Cardiff - Portsmouth. The 158s are ideal for this route, and it is relatively self contained. It's a shame the 158s cannot be left to run here!

 

[TEW]

The West country trials were, I have a vague recollection, carried out using a set with the step boards removed, in case platforms posed problems - I think this was also the case when they were moved south after being built.

I'm pretty sure the step boards were removed. I've seen a picture of a 165 at Totnes before and the caption mentioned the step boards being removed.

 

[Class172]

As 165s and 166s managed to make it from York, where they were built, to Marylebone and Paddington, and have worked to Stourbridge and visited Ilford depot, Derby, Chinnor, and other off-route places I can't now recall, I suspect that not a great deal of work should be needed to clear them on several of the routes listed.

In the 1990s, they also operated from Worcester to Birmingham New Street and around the western half of the Snow Hill Lines as part of NSE's services from Paddington. They are already cleared for the majority of lines in this area as a result.

 

[fgwrich]

The West country trials were, I have a vague recollection, carried out using a set with the step boards removed, in case platforms posed problems - I think this was also the case when they were moved south after being built.

As a general rule of thumb, the 16xs are fine on any ex-GWR route, but platforms and other structures that have been rebuilt in recent years remain an unknown risk until proper clearance checks are made. In the case of most of the routes likely to see them at some point from 2017 onwards, there's not going to be all that much work to do.

And if East West Rail does open before wiring is completed, some Turbos are likely to be retained in the Thames Valley for this route as an interim measure.

They did, and there is a picture of one of NSE's then new 165s leaving Totnes for Hemerdon. The stop boards are also removed when a 165 or 166 head over to Ilford for a CX overhaul.

One of the plans for the 166s is that they will work the Semi Fast / Stopping services to Penzance, and clearance work is being undertaken on Hayle viaduct to accommodate these, along with the work due shortly on Long Rock Depot.

 

[158722]

As 165s and 166s managed to make it from York, where they were built, to Marylebone and Paddington, and have worked to Stourbridge and visited Ilford depot, Derby, Chinnor, and other off-route places I can't now recall, I suspect that not a great deal of work should be needed to clear them on several of the routes listed.

I'd suggest North Berwick is probably the furthest off-route one has been!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could as coached from a 465 ever be added to a 165/166 as an unpowered coach or would they be completely incompatible?

 

[Emyr]

These will probably go to Northern

Whilst all of us up here would appreciate almost any unit we can get, this is the first I've heard of cascaded DMUs heading north. I was under the impression the 319 EMU cascade releasing DMUs from under wire was the only thing on the table for strengthening unwired services.

Northern will probably need to make sure it has capacity and skills at Diesel TMDs...

 

[sprinterguy]

Whilst all of us up here would appreciate almost any unit we can get, this is the first I've heard of cascaded DMUs heading north. I was under the impression the 319 EMU cascade releasing DMUs from under wire was the only thing on the table for strengthening unwired services.

Agreed: There is no evidence, as far as I know, that the Network Turbos are destined for use with Northern. It seems very likely that they will go to FGWs' West of England routes.

 

[zn1]

The networker turbos will be going until they literally fall apart and become like their flying meccano fathers literally held together by duct tape..perhaps by then they may be called "Laira Lego trains"...

as already said....to keep them in gauge when working off region stepboards have to be removed....one did get to allegedly get to bletchley in the dead of one night via the oxford for some emergency repair work...when they go to ilford for coded repairs/ TT or hornsey for TT. Im not sure how far north they have got since construction on jobs...

Even when the GW is strung up...there will be plenty of work for them on the branches that wont get wire due to patronage etc....

 

[sprinterguy]

...which will lose 150s (to ATW) and 142/143/153 (scrap).

Where has this been stated? While it is likely that some 150s will be cascaded away, and the small fleet of 143s will be withdrawn from service, I don't know that the fates of each class of DMU with FGW have been established as fact at this stage. Additionally, First Great Western do not operate any class 142s.

 

[Mikey C]

Could as coached from a 465 ever be added to a 165/166 as an unpowered coach or would they be completely incompatible?

The 165/66s are longer for start (23m vs 20m?)

Maybe the answer is to move all the 165/66s to Chiltern, and transfer all their Turbostars (which are narrower and hence can be used more widely) up north.

 

[YorkshireBear]

143s are contenders for being life extended....

 

[455driver]

Group 2 – additional routes to Exeter (clearance required by mid-2017)
 Exeter St Davids to Plymouth.
 Exeter St Davids to Barnstaple.
 Exeter St Davids to Axminster.
 Newton Abbot to Paignton.

No mention of the Exmouth line which interworks with Barnstaple and Paignton services!
Maybe a Shuttle service from Exmouth to Exeter Central bay which will connect with the Axminster to Barnstaple service.

Edit-
143s and 153s do not feature in the long term plan for FGW West.
150, 158, 165 and 166 are the stock that features.

 

[Wolfie]

The 165/66s are longer for start (23m vs 20m?)

Maybe the answer is to move all the 165/66s to Chiltern, and transfer all their Turbostars (which are narrower and hence can be used more widely) up north.

Not only would Chiltern not wish to release their freshly refurbished 168s for unrefurbished and in some cases slower stock but in reality the exact opposite is happening ie 170s from TPE are coming South to Chiltern.....

 

[contrex]

Where has this been stated? While it is likely that some 150s will be cascaded away, and the small fleet of 143s will be withdrawn from service, I don't know that the fates of each class of DMU with FGW have been established as fact at this stage. Additionally, First Great Western do not operate any class 142s.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1567763

FGW handed the 142s it had on loan back to Northern in Dec 2011 as far as I know