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Boris Johnson: HS2 opponents only really care about their house prices

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jon0844

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http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ouse-prices-boris-johnson-claims-9299848.html

Boris Johnson accused campaigners opposed to the HS2 high speed rail link on environmental grounds of talking "bollocks" as a rebel amendment aimed at wrecking the controversial bill was defeated in the Commons.

The Mayor said protesters are pretending to care about woodland or wildlife but insisted the real cause of their fury is fears their house prices will be hit.

"It's bollocks. They're not campaigning for forests, they're not campaigning for butterflies. They pretend to be obviously, but what they're really furious about is that their house prices are getting it."

He added: "What the Government should do is do what they do in France and say 'right, you've got a problem?' and go to every single household with an absolutely massive chequebook and say 'here you are, what's this worth now? OK. Brilliant', buy it and pay them absolute top dollar for all their property.

"And then when the whole thing goes in and is a success and generates a movement to the area, lifts the economy and the prices go up, well who's quids in? The Government.

"We have a problem in Britain, which is we don't handle these infrastructure projects in the way that they do in France.

"I'm a big believer in big infrastructure. If you look back at the history of this country, at the history of London, it's progressed in leaps and bounds when people put in infrastructure.

"The story of London is the story of people having that vision, that's why we've got to put in Crossrail 2 and all the other things that we are doing. But with HS2, we should be more French in our approach."

I have always though that some people are clearly more worried about the impact on their property values (even if the effect is only short term) or simply want more compensation and will shut up if they get it.
 
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tbtc

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They're not campaigning for forests, they're not campaigning for butterflies. They pretend to be obviously, but what they're really furious about is that their house prices are getting it

I don't often agree with the bloke, but he's spot on here.

Sadly, one of the most high profile people campaigning to be compensated re house prices is this bloke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Johnson_(writer)
 

swt_passenger

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The guy nailed it. It's all bull**** with these nimby/banana types.

Former cabinet minister Cheryl Gillan, who tabled the amendment designed to derail the proposed legislation, said the £42.6bn project would threaten much-needed investment on the rest of the railway.

"I started as a nimby but I have looked at this project and I do not believe it is the best answer to the UK's transport problems," the Chesham and Amersham MP said...

So she is a nimby then, as quoted by the BBC...
 

YorkshireBear

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She still is a nimby, because even when looking at the project she will always be swayed by her own opinion as beginning as a nimby. Impossible to look at it objectively.
 

dggar

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He added: "What the Government should do is do what they do in France and say 'right, you've got a problem?' and go to every single household with an absolutely massive chequebook and say 'here you are, what's this worth now? OK. Brilliant', buy it and pay them absolute top dollar for all their property.

"And then when the whole thing goes in and is a success and generates a movement to the area, lifts the economy and the prices go up, well who's quids in? The Government.

I can't help thinking that If Ed Balls had said this the press would have crucified him
 

Aictos

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Pity Boris can't have the same level for support for Heathrow, instead pushing for a Boris Island :roll:
 

59CosG95

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Funny thing is, the reverse seems to be happening in the Crossrail area-house prices near the GWML have been shooting up because of the project.
 

NotATrainspott

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Funny thing is, the reverse seems to be happening in the Crossrail area-house prices near the GWML have been shooting up because of the project.

That's just because there is a station there though. For locals, a rail scheme will only benefit them directly if they have direct access to it and between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Interchange there aren't ever going to be any stops. Around the stops however the land prices will shoot up - that's what has made the Euston full rebuild possible again and will happen up and down the country wherever HS2 stations are located. Indeed, one of the reasons that David Higgins wanted to speed up Phase 2 is that high-value development would happily take place around the new station buildings years before HS2 services would actually appear there. The HS2 Plus Gantt charts for the new Phase 2 programme suggest that the new station buildings will be complete around the same time as Phase 1 opens.
 

Bantamzen

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It's not entirely true that opposition to HS2 is down to NIMBYs, there is a growing body of opposition on economic grounds too. Many are starting to really question what, if any, the economic benefits are for the regions actually be served by HS2. A lot of people see HS2 as simply an extension to the London commuter belt, and this perception is not helped by the fact that there is talk of higher house prices in areas close to HS2 halts.

I know that one of the primary benefits of HS2 is a release of capacity on the classic network, but of course there will only be a benefit if there is also investment in the existing network & rolling stock up to & beyond the opening of HS2. Yes there are a number of plans to upgrade the legacy systems, but they are to deal with the problems happening today & not those that might occur towards the end of the next decade. And therein lies the problem, it's actually nigh on impossible to actually predict exactly what new options for services might become available once HS2 takes on the Northern England - Birmingham / London routes. Like it or not, up here many people do see HS2 as simply a faster way to get to & from London & therefore not a good investment for the whole country to have to pay. And the ever growing predictions of the total cost are not helping as many people believe that the £28bn will be nowhere near the final costs, and even the buffers built in will not be enough meaning that additional funds will have to be found & this may well be to the detriment of future network improvements.
 

pro4600

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A lot of people see HS2 as simply an extension to the London commuter belt.

I do see a degree of truth to that. It will be the capacity that HS2 releases on the WCML, ECML and MML by diverting the long distance services that will allow the London commuter belt to grow.
 

gordonthemoron

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house prices in Milton Keynes will probably benefit from better services to Euston once HS2 opens (the prices at the moment are nothing spectacular)
 

Peter Lanky

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A bit of a side track from the specific point of this thread, but I've been searching for ages to try to find an appropriate discussion on this subject, so maybe somebody can direct me to one.

My question is, that the pro HS2 lobby is consistently telling us how HS2 is going to be of benefit to the North of the country, but rarely tells us HOW it is going to be of benefit (possibly because most people can't actually see a benefit). So is there a discussion somewhere that puts forward real reasons and backs them up?
 

pablo

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Probably because it's difficult to identify specific benefits in the wider north of the country.

Presently HS2 Ph2 is planned from Lichfield to Manchester with a spur vaguely wandering off to the north-west and connecting to the WCML at a place called Golborne, in Lancashire somewhere.

So, Wigan and Preston and points north and west of there get a benefit of faster transit to the smoke, if that's what the peeps want.
North Wales and Merseyside get stuck with classic compatible stock, via Crewe, for the next forty years with slight improvements to transit times, ditto.

Anything else is so far in the future, it's all political smoke and mirrors. So what is there to get excited about?

All the LAs in the area are beavering away creating proposals for their own patch to try and extract some discernable benefits for them out of the layout that HS2 has designed for their train-set.
 
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NotATrainspott

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It is currently quite obvious that London is 'the place to be' for most young professionals and most new businesses. There are certainly things happening elsewhere, in Salford Quays or wherever, but the majority is in London. Unless the UK moves to a command economy it would be quite difficult to change this.

Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds city centres will be just around an hour away from central London once HS2 Phases 1 and 2 have completed. The journey will be extremely reliable, running entirely on new purpose-built infrastructure, and there will be plenty of capacity for all sorts of travellers to use it. This makes it much easier than it is today for people and businesses to move outside of London while still benefiting from the economic power and international pull of the city. To use Salford Quays as an example again, it would allow workers at the BBC to be able to do productive things at both Broadcasting House and MediaCityUK in one day while still being able to commute to work and back home at reasonable times. As railways are a rather symmetric affair, it would therefore make it as easy to live in Greater Manchester and go to London to do things as it would be to live in Greater London and go to Manchester, but one of those options is going to be significantly cheaper than the other.

The absolute worst case scenario for HS2 Ltd is that HS2 becomes a glorified commuter railway when it opens. However, this is not as bad a thing as it may originally seem as the effects of this will eventually balance out to produce the same benefits that they are predicting now. If you have a company in London, and the majority of your staff live in Greater Manchester and commute in everyday, it makes sense to look at opening an office in Manchester so that you can pay your staff less by the value of an HS2 season ticket. Let's say the London office pays some staff £50,000 a year, and an HS2 season ticket from Piccadilly or New Lane costs £10,000 a year. You could open an office in Manchester or Leeds, with a far lower office rental cost, and pay staff members there £10,000 less a year without any of those employees losing money. You know that it is more than easy to go between the two offices in the course of your business, as they are merely an hour or so away, and you know that the journey between them is comfortable and conducive to doing business in the meantime with the high speed internet connections every passenger will have access to. You can keep your London office open for the few staff that absolutely have to be in London to do their work and all the people who don't absolutely need to be there can move up north. As the cost of housing in northern cities is significantly lower, and can be kept lower much easier as these cities have space for millions more people to live there without skyscrapers or Crossrails being needed, you can reduce your northern staff wages again without them losing out.

Now, there may be subtle things that mean that it doesn't end out all as rosy as I am picturing it but the question has to be asked whether not building HS2 would make the picture any more rosy. If we don't build HS2, it isn't going to help people move to the north because the value of having connections within an Alpha++ city - London is only matched by New York and is surpassed by no one - is significantly higher than the reduced costs of moving out to another city.
 

jon0844

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In other threads on here, we're always hearing about how our current trains - even when lengthened, are having to get high density seating to simply cope with current demand - let alone what we'll have in 10 or 20 years time.

People who seem to think we can just keep upgrading the current lines must forget that we can't make trains unlimited coaches long, or extend every station to support 16 or 20 coach services (not least the impracticality of walking along such platforms to find a particular carriage).

The new line will allow for bigger trains, at least those that won't venture on to the classic network, giving a far higher level of comfort. And I have to assume that with such huge capacity available, at least to begin with the new stock will have more spacious layouts - with far more leg room and nice wide seats.

In other words, ignoring everything else, HS2 trains will be far nicer to be on. Even the ones for use on the classic lines could still have more room, rather than trains using the other lines that will probably get rid of seats and have everyone perching instead!
 

Peter Lanky

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We seem to have a problem, which is getting worse, in that everything in the UK is slowly being concentrated in one corner of the country, thus making that corner overcrowded and expensive, with the rest of the country being drained/starved of resources.

Every initiative seems to be based on how to make dealing with that problem easier rather than take the radical step of removing the problem.

So we end up with people living further away and thus we make trains faster and more frequent to get them there quicker. In doing so a lot of people who neither live there nor work there end up paying the price in one way or another.

There seems to be such easy acceptance among the public and politicians, and many assumptions made, that retaining the status quo is not a problem and we should keep feeding it with ever more complex schemes to get even more people there faster. Very little thought appears to have been put into the much simpler solution of just getting rid of the problem.

Stop concentrating everything in one corner of the country and spread it around. Challenge the excuses for retaining the status quo and look for solutions rather than just accepting it. When that happens, we will not need HS2 or any other expensive fancy scheme, and we can become a more productive country by not having goodness knows how many millions of people wasting up to four hours of their life every working day of their life simply sitting in a train or in a traffic jam, when they could be either working (if they feel so inclined) or using their significantly large incomes to enjoy life a little more.
 

NotATrainspott

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We seem to have a problem, which is getting worse, in that everything in the UK is slowly being concentrated in one corner of the country, thus making that corner overcrowded and expensive, with the rest of the country being drained/starved of resources.

Every initiative seems to be based on how to make dealing with that problem easier rather than take the radical step of removing the problem.

So we end up with people living further away and thus we make trains faster and more frequent to get them there quicker. In doing so a lot of people who neither live there nor work there end up paying the price in one way or another.

There seems to be such easy acceptance among the public and politicians, and many assumptions made, that retaining the status quo is not a problem and we should keep feeding it with ever more complex schemes to get even more people there faster. Very little thought appears to have been put into the much simpler solution of just getting rid of the problem.

Stop concentrating everything in one corner of the country and spread it around. Challenge the excuses for retaining the status quo and look for solutions rather than just accepting it. When that happens, we will not need HS2 or any other expensive fancy scheme, and we can become a more productive country by not having goodness knows how many millions of people wasting up to four hours of their life every working day of their life simply sitting in a train or in a traffic jam, when they could be either working (if they feel so inclined) or using their significantly large incomes to enjoy life a little more.

The United Kingdom is not a command economy; the Government does not decree to the people that they should move to London at a rate of thousands of people per day. The Government is capable of doing some things to attract people out of London but it is not capable of stopping it entirely, as we live in a free society. It is taking some steps to address the problem, such as moving the HS2 Ltd headquarters to Birmingham and moving much of BBC production to Salford Quays, but it is not able to force people to not set up businesses in London. There is a great value to organisations to locate themselves in London as the city is one of the only two Alpha++ global cities of the world. HS2 Ltd are currently headquartered in the city as a consequence - they need easy access to the politicians and legal system of the city up until the legal/political things are done. No amount of new underground systems in Birmingham or Metrolink extensions in Manchester will solve this problem.
 

pablo

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So, it's all about shipping Londoners out ooop north where everything is cheeeep and cheeerful? Naaah; even the politicians don't try that one on. It's all about capacity (and speed), remember?.
It's been tried before; Stevenage; Harlow and Bracknell come to mind; and latterly MK. With various degrees of timescale and sucess.
Not tooo far from Town please, so we can see the relatives and go to the theatre occasionally. It's very cold ooop north and it's always raining. They've got webbed feet in Manch, right? No thank you! You'd have to pay us a million dollars to go ooop there.
 
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pablo

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Funny, isn't it?

When we walked to work it took 10 minutes, cycled, quarter-of-an-hour.
When the tram and the omnibus arrived it became half-an-hour,
And the motor car? oooh at least an hour; same as by train.
Now the prospect is High Speed and it's at least two hours.

It's a mad world don't you think?
 

gordonthemoron

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I used to commute Nottingham-London by car-train-foot in the 1990s, it took 2-2.5 hours so not much change

Equally a colleague who lived in Hornchurch took 1.5 hours by tube, this is a journey of 19 miles
 
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