Photocard number not corresponding with annual ticket

[pamplemousse]

HI there, I wonder if anyone can advise me. I have received a notice of intention to prosecute from FCC. On my commute to work my annual season ticket was checked and found to have a number that did not match that on my photocard. I have no idea why this is - I lawfully bought by £4000+ ticket and can only speculate that the mismatch arose after I had to get a replacement ticket printed when my original ticket ceased working in the machines. I was cautioned and warned I might be prosecuted for this. Later at the station ticket office I spoke to someone who was very quickly able to confirm that it was me who had bought my ticket (by cross referring my debit card number with the details on their system) and printed me a new ticket that matched the number on my photocard. On the same day I complained to FCC about the manner in which I had been treated in circumstances where I had legitimately paid for my ticket and had no idea why the numbers did not match. I have now received this letter of notice of intention to prosecute and have replied. I am obviously worried/slightly outraged about this when I bought my ticket and have no idea why the numbers did not match (as I said to FCC, the ticket office confirmed that it must have been their fault that the mismatch arose at all). I'd be very grateful for any advice... thanks.

 

[bb21]

What was the extent of the mismatch?

Was the ticket withdrawn on the spot?

 

[pamplemousse]

The numbers did not match. The photo card had my name and photo on it, it's just for whatever reason (unbeknownst to me) the photocard number wasn't the same as that on my ticket as it should be.

No the RPO didn't take my ticket. I later went to the ticket office with it who immediately printed me a new ticket with a number that this time matched that on my photocard (after saying that they didn't know how it could be that the numbers did not match but that it must have somehow been with their fault).

 

[bb21]

Do you mean that the numbers did not match at all, rather than just out by a digit or two, or shifted a place or something like that?

I must say I find it very odd that if the RPI suspected wrongdoing the ticket was not withdrawn immediately. Do you still remember how the conversation went?

 

[pamplemousse]

The numbers were not similar at all, it wasn't a matter of the numbers being just different.

After taking a statement (and I think after the caution?) the RPO said that something like he might ordinarily have confiscated my ticket, but that since he could not get through to someone on the phone who he had tried to phone, he would let me keep my ticket.

I guess what my query really is whether you'd think it's possible/likely FCC would pursue a prosecution even though it's perfectly evident that I paid for my ticket (from my bank statement and details) and in circumstances where I have no idea why the numbers don't match (and where the issuing ticket office said it must have been their fault). I find the potential prospect that I could be pursued very galling when I have already paid £4000+ for my ticket and am ignorant of why the situation arose at all.

 

[bb21]

That does seem very odd indeed.

I guess the difficulty is convincing FCC that it is this Photocard, and hence you, who this (incorrect) season ticket was issued to. I am not sure what FCC hold in their season ticket database with regard to Photocard number (whether it was the correct one, incorrect one, or none at all). Perhaps it would be worth doing a Subject Access Request to see what details they have on their database.

Nevertheless I would think that as long as the correct ticket number is directly linked to your name and address in the season ticket database, I would imagine that the chance of this proceeding beyond the investigatory stage is slim. This belief is reinforced in my opinion by the fact that even if they would like to take this matter to court, they have no evidence (the ticket) since it was not withdrawn on the spot. It would be foolish for them to prosecute without it.

Although I must point out that it is the passenger's responsibility at the time of purchase to ensure that all details are correct on the product they are sold, I don't think in this case the technicality of a mismatching number would have a big impact provided that you can prove that the ticket was issued to you.

Of course that is just my opinion on this very rare incident and others may disagree.

 

[pamplemousse]

Thank you for your viewpoint. Where you say that "the difficulty is convincing FCC that it is this Photocard, and hence you, who this (incorrect) season ticket was issued to", I would hope that the fact that it is easily verifiable that it was my bank card that purchased the ticket would be enough (?!). As you say, there can be no doubt that the ticket number that I did have (before getting a new ticket issued) was directly linked to my name and address in the season ticket database.

Thank you again for your opinion, I am obviously worried about it (just because it's not nice to receive such a letter!) but am trying to have faith that FCC will quickly be able to confirm that I paid for my travel and so I obviously had no intention of fare evading!

 

[bb21]

I don't think the fact that your card details match proves anything. For all they know, you could have purchased a ticket for someone else (son/daughter/nephew/brother/neighbour/Tom/Dick/Harry) who has the Photocard the (incorrect) ticket shows, if you see what I mean.

The key I would think is what other details show up in their season ticket database, which should contain the details of every season ticket issued for a period of one month and longer. I would hope that the name and address matches perfectly with your details. This is the main reason why I think it might be worth doing a Subject Access Request.

 

[pamplemousse]

Hmm I think I see what you mean. Well I only ever bought a season ticket on my own behalf, giving my personal details and my address (and paying with my debit card..), so there's no doubt that it'll be my details they'll have on their system in respect of the ticket number.

 

[Haywain]

But that will show that your card purchased the original season ticket. You said that it was a replacement that was questioned, so you are reliant on the details of that replacement connecting to the original ticket you bought. That may not be so clear cut.

 

[34D]

Let's suppose your photocard number is 123456.

Let's suppose that in error, the photocard reference number on the errant season ticket is 112233. This season ticket will have a ticket number, 98765432.

The replacement ticket that was done the other day will show photocard 123456 and ticket number 98777777.

Ticket 98765432 will be linked in their database to a customer name, address, and photocard number.

It will be obvious to them whether a mistake was made.

Of course, if ticket 98765432 links to a completely different passenger, then we have a problem.

 

[Haywain]

There is also the risk that the replacement ticket was either not, or incorrectly, entered in the database and doesn't point to this r any identifiable customer. Unfortunately, it happens.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I would have thought the immediate helpful willingness of the booking clerk to sort out the error is a strong indication that there was nothing untoward going on, in respect of anyone (the OP or otherwise) trying to get away with anything or to travel without a valid ticket. And when I say "valid" I mean that the ticket was issued to the OP, paid for by the OP and he/she alone has used it or its replacement.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I would have thought the immediate helpful willingness of the booking clerk to sort out the error is a strong indication that there was nothing untoward going on, in respect of anyone (the OP or otherwise) trying to get away with anything or to travel without a valid ticket. And when I say "valid" I mean that the ticket was issued to the OP, paid for by the OP and he/she alone has used it or its replacement.

I strongly suspect there is an element of it varying by clerk. Some of the clerks I used to work with at Thameslink (now FCC of course) would have changed it without any questions because "it's easier" than actually doing the job as it should be done (not saying it wasn't done correctly here mind).

 

[47421]

This is a very odd one.

- I thought nowadays that photocards have a bar code on, which is scanned and completes the right number on the ticket? Does your photocard have a bar code? Have you ever had another photocard, eg did you lose one, get another, and then later find the old one again?

- what were the circumstances in which you had the tic with the wrong photocard number on it issued? You did hand over another season at the tic office which no longer worked on the barriers, and were then issued a duplicate? Did that duplicate say "Replacement" on it? When seasons are re-issued because the original is lost or stolen then they are printed with "Replacement" in big letters. If yours does say that then it is understandable why the RPI was concerned as there is a risk that you reported the old tic lost / stolen and had a dulplicate issued, having actually passed the original to someone else.

- as mentioned above, given the database, this should be an easy one for FCC to resolve without the need to send a letter stating that they intend to prosecute. Perhaps they have only got one form of follow up letter to use at the investigation stage. But if this is as you say a simple mix up, then sending that letter seems inappropriate and I can understand why you are angry about it

I agree with the suggestion above about making a data protection act subject access request

 

[talltim]

My photocard has a barcode, but every time I renew my monthley season, they seem to type the number in rather than scan it

 

[thedbdiboy]

If you could PM me the details I will see if this can be sorted, if you can provide details of the station that sorted and details of your ticket it it should be possible for FCC to verify the error.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....- I thought nowadays that photocards have a bar code on, which is scanned and completes the right number on the ticket? Does your photocard have a bar code? Have you ever had another photocard, eg did you lose one, get another, and then later find the old one again?....

Not all ticket machines have barcode scanners, I believe FCC use FasTis which doesn't have them.

....- as mentioned above, given the database, this should be an easy one for FCC to resolve without the need to send a letter stating that they intend to prosecute. Perhaps they have only got one form of follow up letter to use at the investigation stage. But if this is as you say a simple mix up, then sending that letter seems inappropriate and I can understand why you are angry about it....

It may depend what they have found on the database.

 

[gordonthemoron]

would it not be possible to sue FCC for issuing an invalid ticket?

 

[185]

would it not be possible to sue FCC for issuing an invalid ticket?

Was just thinking that.

If they've caused the error then threatened to prosecute you for it, I would not hesitate in lettering their prosecutions unit to see what out-of-court compensation settlement FOR YOU they would consider for wrongly attempting to raise a prosecution.

 

[bb21]

would it not be possible to sue FCC for issuing an invalid ticket?

No.

Was just thinking that.

If they've caused the error then threatened to prosecute you for it, I would not hesitate in lettering their prosecutions unit to see what out-of-court compensation settlement FOR YOU they would consider for wrongly attempting to raise a prosecution.

Not helping.

 

[Clip]

Was just thinking that.

If they've caused the error then threatened to prosecute you for it, I would not hesitate in lettering their prosecutions unit to see what out-of-court compensation settlement FOR YOU they would consider for wrongly attempting to raise a prosecution.

They have caused the error but without the facts given from the passenger on this(they only have a letter) then they cannot fully say they will or will not prosecute. Its a standard template letter and I am pretty sure it will be cleared up but to want to sue them because of a clerks error?

 

[47421]

On the possibility of suing FCC, agree would be counterproductive at this stage.

Generally speaking the rule in breach of contract cases is that the courts will only entertain claims for actual financial losses. Here there are not any. If FCC had confiscated the ticket and it turned out it was a mix up, and they then refused to refund the cost of replacement tickets, that would be different. In that case it would be easy to establish the actual losses, and you would have a good chance of recovering them in the small claims court.

 

[Tibbs]

Have you got the ID of the person who issued you the replacement with the right number?

It might be useful to be able to call on this person.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the possibility of suing FCC, agree would be counterproductive at this stage.

Generally speaking the rule in breach of contract cases is that the courts will only entertain claims for actual financial losses. Here there are not any. If FCC had confiscated the ticket and it turned out it was a mix up, and they then refused to refund the cost of replacement tickets, that would be different. In that case it would be easy to establish the actual losses, and you would have a good chance of recovering them in the small claims court.

Surely you'd take them to court after they took you to court, so you'd be able to recover the losses of any fine (+ interest) that was set during the trial?

 

[bb21]

If they can prove to a court that the OP committed an offence by using a ticket that is not his, on what grounds would the OP be taking them to court?

If they cannot prove that, there won't be a fine.

I think all this talk about suing FCC is getting rather irrelevant to the original issue.

 

[Tibbs]

If they can prove to a court that the OP committed an offence by using a ticket that is not his, on what grounds would the OP be taking them to court?

If they cannot prove that, there won't be a fine.

I think all this talk about suing FCC is getting rather irrelevant to the original issue.

Because you're not arguing about whether the fine was correct, but around the reason for the prosecution in the first place. If you can demonstrate that FCC were in breach of contract by incorrectly issuing the ticket then surely you can then sue to get your losses back?

You're right this is off track rather, but were I in his position I'd have this up my sleeve. Small claims is a pretty friendly place for the little person, as long as you approach it the right way and are prepared. It's also done on balance of probability.

Having been to small claims and having a reasonable understanding of how they work, I'd be pretty confident that a DJ would take a very dim view of a TOC taking a person to court for an issue they caused. Assuming they can demonstrate that of course.

Given that the OP can supply the transaction date, the number of the ticket that they were issued, the number of the photo ID, I'm sure he can find out from FCC whether a ticket matching his number was issued after the date they were originally given it.

 

[tony_mac]

I think, at the moment, this looks like the best route to a simple solution....

If you could PM me the details I will see if this can be sorted, if you can provide details of the station that sorted and details of your ticket it it should be possible for FCC to verify the error.

 

[bb21]

Because you're not arguing about whether the fine was correct, but around the reason for the prosecution in the first place. If you can demonstrate that FCC were in breach of contract by incorrectly issuing the ticket then surely you can then sue to get your losses back?

And the loss would be?

 

[Tibbs]

And the loss would be?

Your Court costs, which you wouldn't have incurred had FCC issued the ticket correctly.

As my parking company exerience has demonstrated to me, all losses claimed must directly flow from the breach of contract. There's a pretty clear flow here, assuming of course that issuing an incorrect ticket forms a breach of the contract between passenger and TOC. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if it isn't.

Remember this all takes plave in Small Claims, it's very informal and all bets are off, anything can happen. It all depends on how the DJ is feeling on the day.

 

[gordonthemoron]

loss of earnings