Stopped by Northern RPO - no ticket

[island]

I agree with bb21 that this is one of the more staright forward cases that we get asked for advice on.

As do I.

Double-gating is itself an offence even if one has a valid ticket, and is ample evidence of an intent to avoid payment of one's fare if one hasn't.

 

[Flamingo]

I believe the phrase is "Bang to rights".

Lots of threads at the moment full of injured indignation. They are fun!

 

[najaB]

Double-gating is itself an offence even if one has a valid ticket

Not that I doubt you, but what law or byelaw does it break?

Wait, never mind - I missed the 'in the correct manner' of 9.2.

 

[1D53]

Platform 9 I think - walked over the bridge and straight through the barriers.

In that case you walked past the fares collectors on the footbridge too whom would have also sold you a ticket.

Bang to rights.

 

[Deerfold]

In that case you walked past the fares collectors on the footbridge too whom would have also sold you a ticket.

Bang to rights.

When are they there? I don't remember having ever seen them.

 

[1D53]

When are they there? I don't remember having ever seen them.

Every morning as far as typically 1100-1200. They are based next to the lift shaft near the escalators down to platform 8.

 

[34D]

Every morning as far as typically 1100-1200. They are based next to the lift shaft near the escalators down to platform 8.

I've seen them on the desk opposite Starbucks, which someone coming from plat 9 wouldn't see.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Reason?

I'm interested to here maniacmartin's thoughts also.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Every morning as far as typically 1100-1200. They are based next to the lift shaft near the escalators down to platform 8.

I use Leeds from time to time and while I agree those guys are there I don't think I have ever seen them on the "other" foot bridge, which may have been the one the OP uses.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm interested to here maniacmartin's thoughts also.

I don't go to Leeds often, but from what I remember it's possible to get to the ticket barriers without passing the excess fares window if coming from the higher-numbered platforms, so I'm not convinced that a ticket-purchasing opportunity was passed. (I was unaware of any revenue staff regularly being on the overbridge, as I've only been there on weekends).

This does not detract from the byelaw offence of double-gating, which might well be enough to prove intent as required for a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

 

[Haywain]

I don't go to Leeds often, but from what I remember it's possible to get to the ticket barriers without passing the excess fares window if coming from the higher-numbered platforms, so I'm not convinced that a ticket-purchasing opportunity was passed. (I was unaware of any revenue staff regularly being on the overbridge, as I've only been there on weekends).

This does not detract from the byelaw offence of double-gating, which might well be enough to prove intent as required for a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

I'm sorry, but you are taking understanding of "passing" an opportunity to pay to ridiculous extremes. The opportunity was there, and wasn't taken. That should be enough. It's like suggesting that if the TVM is to the left of the entrance to the platform and you choose to turn right on to the platform that doesn't constitute "passing".

 

[Greenback]

I agree with Haywain.

With the sort of definition of passing an opportunity to pay suggested by manicamartin, no one would be guilty of not buying a ticket before travelling unless they had to physically walk past the ticket window or TVM to get to the train. I can think of an awful lot of locations where a detour to another platform is required to purchase a ticket, as well as places where there are multiple entrances, some of which are nowhere near the ticket facilities.

 

[Eca99mab]

Where do you draw the line with regard to passing a ticket purchasing opportunity?

In theory I could have forced my way through a train full of passengers in order to find the guard to purchase a ticket or

I could have alighted further down the line the buy a ticket at a the first station with a ticket office or

If I had known about the ticket office at Leeds station I could have walked out of my way to purchase a ticket but

I chose to purchase a ticket at the main travel centre. Following someone through the barriers aside is it not my choice as the where I purchase a ticket?

 

[Flamingo]

Where do you draw the line with regard to passing a ticket purchasing opportunity?

In theory I could have forced my way through a train full of passengers in order to find the guard to purchase a ticket or

I could have alighted further down the line the buy a ticket at a the first station with a ticket office or

If I had known about the ticket office at Leeds station I could have walked out of my way to purchase a ticket but

I chose to purchase a ticket at the main travel centre. Following someone through the barriers aside is it not my choice as the where I purchase a ticket?

No, it's not your choice, it's the first opportunity. Otherwise your choice could be the next day in a different country...

 

[najaB]

...is it not my choice as the where I purchase a ticket?

If you are buying your ticket before boarding the train, then yes you can buy the ticket wherever you choose. If you are travelling without a valid ticket, then you must buy one at the first possible opportunity. If the train was full to the point that you weren't able to purchase your ticket onboard, then your first two opportunities were from the excess fares window and from (or with the assistance of) gateline staff.

Look at it from the TOC's point of view. You didn't take advantage of the first two opportunities in the station, what reason do they have to believe that you would have taken advantage of the third?

 

[Eca99mab]

So if we take the TOC's line then I should have battled through a train full of passengers to find the guard regardless of how impractical iAd it was my first opportunity to purchase a ticket.

Or as I have a smartphone is the first opportunity to buy a ticket from one of the ticket selling websites?

 

[bb21]

You are still clutching at straws.

No, you do not need to battle through crowds on the train to find the guard. That is not reasonable nor practical. Yes, you do need to use the excess fares window to purchase your ticket before passing the barrier, and no, double-gating is not permitted.

I don't see how this is so difficult to grasp.

As to the phone argument, tell me how you can collect the ticket. There are stupid - a word I very scarecely use - arguments but this one by far takes the biscuit.

 

[6Gman]

So if we take the TOC's line then I should have battled through a train full of passengers to find the guard regardless of how impractical iAd it was my first opportunity to purchase a ticket.

Or as I have a smartphone is the first opportunity to buy a ticket from one of the ticket selling websites?

You would have saved yourself all of this by going to the manned gate and saying "excuse me, I've not been able to get a ticket; what should I do?" rather than by tailgating an automatic ticket gate (the clue is in the name).

 

[island]

As to the phone argument, tell me how you can collect the ticket. There are stupid - a word I very scarecely use - arguments but this one by far takes the biscuit.

Actually, it's not at all stupid. Leeds station has ticket collection machines inside the gates.

 

[najaB]

Actually, it's not at all stupid. Leeds station has ticket collection machines inside the gates.

Out of curiosity, whereabouts are they, I may be travelling that way soon.

 

[bb21]

Actually, it's not at all stupid. Leeds station has ticket collection machines inside the gates.

Leeds may, but that will never work as a general rule.

 

[Deerfold]

Out of curiosity, whereabouts are they, I may be travelling that way soon.

To the left of the ticket gates as you leave the station. I think there's only one.

 

[Haywain]

To the left of the ticket gates as you leave the station. I think there's only one.

Towards the excess fare window?

 

[Deerfold]

Towards the excess fare window?

Yes, on that side.

 

[Flamingo]

Towards the excess fare window?

But that's difficult to find

(sorry, I couldn't resist it...)

 

[Starmill]

My experiences are exactly the opposite. Apart from Rovers and Rangers, they will take anything. South Wigston - Dore anyone? Or even Hatton - Droitwich Spa?

I've had a London Travelcard accepted (quite some time ago now though) and a Mauldeth Road - Manchester ticket.

Incidentally, I recently tried to purchase a ticket FROM another station TO Leeds at the ticket office the other day. It took me no less than four explanations following the initial request to get across exactly what it was that I wanted and that I had just travelled and arrived there (the ticket clerks will easily sell tickets with any origin and destination if they exist but this case was different because the ticket I was trying to purchase had used up its value by the time I was trying to buy it - a lot of surprise at my 'honesty' was expressed by the person who served me and her colleagues!). I don't think they see people buying for journeys already made there very often...

 

[CockneySparrow]

It's also worth noting, for the benefit of any readers of this thread who are not familiar with Leeds station, that when you go through the barriers you are as close to one of the station exits as you are to the ticket office, and it is the exit which is more obvious.

Indeed, and really easy to "do a runner" lol

 

[londonbridge]

I'll often walk through a gate that's open for whatever reason though. Once I've been called back and once I've been followed and asked to show my ticket. Both times I had a valid ticket of course (a season), and had just taken the opportunity to save some time.

At King's Cross, the gates are often open at some very odd times of the day, and you'll see a mix of people walking through and those who still put their paper tickets through even though staff might actually say 'just come through' to them.

Many's the time I've arrived at Kings X around 9.00pm on a Saturday having returned from the match and found the barriers open. I hold a valid ticket but usually just walk straight through and have never been stopped or challenged.

 

[Yew]

I have read the national conditions of carriage together with the appropriate byelaws and I do not believe I've committed an offence.

Have you read all relevant case law?

 

[jon0844]

Many's the time I've arrived at Kings X around 9.00pm on a Saturday having returned from the match and found the barriers open. I hold a valid ticket but usually just walk straight through and have never been stopped or challenged.

At King's Cross, the gates will be open when there are no members of staff around to call anyone back - and it's a very common occurrence. FCC seems to use its gates more than East Coast, which of course means there's a somewhat easy way to get around to platforms 9-11 without a ticket!

 

[woody505]

what time was your train sometimes the excess booth is closed later on, don't think they man it after 10pm