Stopped by Northern RPO - no ticket

[Eca99mab]

Hi all - This is my first post and I would like some thoughts / comments in respect of my encounter with a RPO.

One morning I travelled in to Leeds from an unmanned station with no ticket machine. The train was packed (standing room only) so, although looking, there was no feasible way I could purchase a ticket from the conductor.

I alighted the train at Leeds station and followed somebody through the ticket barriers. I quite often do this with a ticket as the barriers are slow and unresponsive and I sometimes need to keep my ticket to claim expenses.

I thought nothing of this as I had the full intention of purchasing a ticket at the Leeds ticket office. I even went through the barriers directly in front of an RPO.

I was stopped by the RPO and handed over my details. He asked if I had a ticket, I confirmed I did not. He then asked me why I didn't purchase a ticket to which I gave my response.

The ticket barriers at Leeds station are a hundred feet before the ticket office so i did not intend to evade the fare. I even bought the ticket after the incident.

I do not normally use this route and always travel with advanced tickets so the need to purchase a ticket at the station has never arisen before.

This is the first time that I will have been brought to Northern Rail's or any other train company's, attention for such a mistake.

The question is therefore what is likely to be the next course of action?

I have read the national conditions of carriage together with the appropriate byelaws and I do not believe I've committed an offence.

 

[bb21]

Two things you did wrong. One is not purchasing a ticket from the Excess Fares window at the end of the terminating platforms to the left of the gates as you exit. The other is double-gating.

The first one made the second one look much worse as that can be seen as a quite clear indication that you had no intention to pay your fare, and likely to be interpreted as such, which is a Section 5.3(b) offence, conviction under which will result in a criminal record.

Double-gating is a Section 9(2) offence by itself under the Railway Byelaws.

The next course of action is likely to be Northern sending you a letter inviting your side of the story allowing you to put forward any mitigating circumstances. They will then make a decision on what will happen next. This of course is not guaranteed, as they can proceed straight to prosecution should they feel they have sufficient evidence.

How did the conversation go exactly between you and gateline staff on the day?

 

[yorkie]

The ticket barriers at Leeds station are a hundred feet before the ticket office so i did not intend to evade the fare....

But that's not how Northern will see it.

The ticket barriers at Leeds are after the excess fares ticket office within the station, so it could reasonably look like you were intending to evade the fare.

I have read the national conditions of carriage together with the appropriate byelaws and I do not believe I've committed an offence.

I know this won't be what you want to hear, but I do not share your interpretation.

 

[Stigy]

Two things you did wrong. One is not purchasing a ticket from the Excess Fares window at the end of the terminating platforms to the left of the gates as you exit. The other is double-gating.

The first one made the second one look much worse as that can be seen as a quite clear indication that you had no intention to pay your fare, and likely to be interpreted as such, which is a Section 5.3(b) offence, conviction under which will result in a criminal record.

Double-gating is a Section 9(2) offence by itself under the Railway Byelaws.

The next course of action is likely to be Northern sending you a letter inviting your side of the story allowing you to put forward any mitigating circumstances. They will then make a decision on what will happen next. This of course is not guaranteed, as they can proceed straight to prosecution should they feel they have sufficient evidence.

How did the conversation go exactly between you and gateline staff on the day?

I agree, although the offence would be a 5(3)a rather than a 5(3)b as the latter dictates that a person travels beyond validity with the intention to avoid paying the full fare.

The very fact of tailgating through the barriers indicates by actions that the payment would have gone unpaid. 99% of those who do this have no intention of going to the ticket office, otherwise they'd ask to be let through legitimately. With that in mind, is it reasonable to believe you would have gone to the ticket office? No, not really. This is also what the Magistrates will likely view the facts as too.

Eca99,

How can you say after reading the Byelaws you don't believe you've done anything wrong? The most obvious one to prove is Byelaw 9(2) which relates to the correct use if ticket barriers. Are you saying by tailgating, you used them correctly? No, you didn't. It doesn't matter what you say to this one, as it's an offence if strict liability, and you wre seen committing it!

The Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) won't be relevant to your case I'm afraid, especially if they prosecute you under the Regulation if Railways Act (the 5(3)a I mentioned earlier). The NRCoC can't firm the bases of a prosecution alone and would only serve to aid any mitigation you might have.

 

[Clip]

I alighted the train at Leeds station and followed somebody through the ticket barriers. I quite often do this with a ticket as the barriers are slow and unresponsive and I sometimes need to keep my ticket to claim expenses.

I do not normally use this route and always travel with advanced tickets so the need to purchase a ticket at the station has never arisen before.

.

Is it me or do these two sentences contradict each other? You dont do the route often but you always double shuffle through the barriers at Leeds?

 

[yorkie]

Is it me or do these two sentences contradict each other? You dont do the route often but you always double shuffle through the barriers at Leeds?

To be fair, not necessarily. There are routes into Leeds I do not do often, but it would be fair to say I visit Leeds station often. (It's also true to say that it's incredibly rare that my ticket works the gateline, but that's another story!)

 

[Greenback]

I agree with Yorkie and bb21. My first thought, on reading your post, was that there is an excess fares window in Leeds, which is there for the exact scenario you found yourself in.

You passed by an opportunity to purchase a ticket there, and compounded the offence by double gating. There is no doubt in my mind that the train company has reasonable grounds to regard your actions as intent to avoid buying a ticket at all. And it is your actions that count, not whatever it was your were thinking.

Your best bet is to reply to their letter with an honest, and hopefully regretful, explanation of what happened, an assurance that it won't be repeated, and an offer to settle the matter without bothering the courts.

Given the circumstance, Northern may not be prepared to settle, and may decide to prosecute, but you will need to wait and see.

 

[bb21]

I agree, although the offence would be a 5(3)a rather than a 5(3)b as the latter dictates that a person travels beyond validity with the intention to avoid paying the full fare.

You are right. I quote 5.3(b) too many times and it's just a force of habit that I seem to default to that in these cases.

(It's also true to say that it's incredibly rare that my ticket works the gateline, but that's another story!)

My experiences are exactly the opposite. Apart from Rovers and Rangers, they will take anything. South Wigston - Dore anyone? Or even Hatton - Droitwich Spa?

 

[Clip]

To be fair, not necessarily. There are routes into Leeds I do not do often, but it would be fair to say I visit Leeds station often. (It's also true to say that it's incredibly rare that my ticket works the gateline, but that's another story!)

But if the OP done any route into Leeds often enough then surely they would notice the excess fares booth? Im guessing its pretty prominent enough to notice even if you dont use it.

 

[yorkie]

But if the OP done any route into Leeds often enough then surely they would notice the excess fares booth? Im guessing its pretty prominent enough to notice even if you dont use it.

Only if you use very low numbered platforms. I bet a lot of people who travel into Leeds from York wouldn't have a clue it's there! No excuses though, as anyone asking at the gateline could be directed to it!

However, I get what you are saying; that the OPs story doesn't hold water and it would be unwise to attempt to use any of the defences detailed in the opening post of this thread. And, I agree!

 

[Eca99mab]

All,

Many thanks for your advice and speedy replies.

In response to a few points raised above:

1) I had no idea double gating was an offence under the byelaws. Thank you for pointing this out.

2) The excess fares office as you call it is ticked away in a corner at Leeds station. To my knowledge there are no signposts and as I usually get the main line in I use platform 6 or 8 therefore do notwalk anywhere near it.

3) Does the fact I still went to buy a ticket after the event not
count for anything?

4) I was still 100 feet inside the station and was walking towards the main ticket office.

Regards

 

[Eca99mab]

I also forgot to mention the ticket barriers are not after the excess fares window at Leeds station. They are completely put of way unless you use platforms 1 2 or 3.

I did not walk past them - I did not deviate from my path because a) I didn't realise it was there and b) I walk past the main ticket office.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Excess Fares window isn't all that obvious, it's right in the corner by the end of platform one. It is rather more obvious in a morning because of the queues of people waiting to use it, though.

Asking the gateline staff where one buys a ticket would see you directed to it, of course. The OP's story adds up, but it adds up to "intent to avoid payment of the fare". The OP can expect to cost him a minimum of £80, and that's if Northern take a lenient view.

 

[Greenback]

All,

Many thanks for your advice and speedy replies.

In response to a few points raised above:

1) I had no idea double gating was an offence under the byelaws. Thank you for pointing this out.

2) The excess fares office as you call it is ticked away in a corner at Leeds station. To my knowledge there are no signposts and as I usually get the main line in I use platform 6 or 8 therefore do notwalk anywhere near it.

It's not really relevant that you don't walk anywher enear it. It may not be as convenient, but if you have to take a detour to buy a ticket, you have to take a detour.

I'm not sure why you would need signposts as you seem to know wher eit is situated?

3) Does the fact I still went to buy a ticket after the event not count for anything?

In my view, the crucial facts are that you passed an opportunity to pay before the barriers, and double gated through. Whatever you did, or intended to do after that doesn't count for much in law.

4) I was still 100 feet inside the station and was walking towards the main ticket office.

Regards

You may, of course, from the point of view of the company, have walked past it as you did the excess fares window (not literally). The crucial facts here, once again, are your actions in not buying a ticket before following anothe rperson through the barriers. That is sufficient for the company to form a view that you had no intention of buying a ticket. It is a reasonable view in the cirumstances.

In your shoes, I would not attempt to fight my corner, but I would hope that Northen will accept an out of court settlement. It's not guaranteed that they will, given the double gating as well, but in my opinion the chances are quite good if you have not come to their attention for a similar matter previously.

 

[MyFriendMary]

1) I had no idea double gating was an offence under the byelaws. Thank you for pointing this out.

Surely a bit of common sense would have made this obvious prior to it being pointed out in the bylaws. But that's not really your biggest issue here...

2) The excess fares office as you call it is ticked away in a corner at Leeds station. To my knowledge there are no signposts and as I usually get the main line in I use platform 6 or 8 therefore do notwalk anywhere near it.

You could try a defence of not knowing - but this would have been applicable had you not attempted to cross the gateline and instead asked a member of staff for where a ticket could be purchased.

3) Does the fact I still went to buy a ticket after the event not count for anything?

Not really. At the time of the offence you were not in possession of a valid ticket. A few times I've seen someone buy a ticket after being issued a Penalty Fare and wave it back at the member of staff as if it is a "Get out of Jail Free" card. It isn't.

4) I was still 100 feet inside the station and was walking towards the main ticket office.

But on the wrong side of the Gateline. On crossing the barriers, without a valid ticket, you committed an offence.

 

[Haywain]

4) I was still 100 feet inside the station and was walking towards the main ticket office.

b) I walk past the main ticket office.

You may well have been walking towards the main ticket office, and may well have walked past it. I suspect that Northern will have formed the view that walking past it was exactly what you were intending, based on what you had already done.

It's also worth noting, for the benefit of any readers of this thread who are not familiar with Leeds station, that when you go through the barriers you are as close to one of the station exits as you are to the ticket office, and it is the exit which is more obvious.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

But if the OP done any route into Leeds often enough then surely they would notice the excess fares booth? Im guessing its pretty prominent enough to notice even if you dont use it.

Only if you use very low numbered platforms. I bet a lot of people who travel into Leeds from York wouldn't have a clue it's there! No excuses though, as anyone asking at the gateline could be directed to it!

However, I get what you are saying; that the OPs story doesn't hold water and it would be unwise to attempt to use any of the defences detailed in the opening post of this thread. And, I agree!

There are HUGE signs near the Excess Fares window (and often huge queues too!) so it is fairly hard to miss. At busy times there are often people on the overbridge too.

 

[Deerfold]

There are HUGE signs near the Excess Fares window (and often huge queues too!) so it is fairly hard to miss. At busy times there are often people on the overbridge too.

In the morning peak it's hard to miss if you go near it. At other times, much easier.

It's also worth noting, for the benefit of any readers of this thread who are not familiar with Leeds station, that when you go through the barriers you are as close to one of the station exits as you are to the ticket office, and it is the exit which is more obvious.

And another exit past the ticket office - you wouldn't come back in view of the barrier staff if you went out that way.

 

[Eca99mab]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_LDS/plan.html?rtnloc=LDS

I don't think it is that obvious as I always come in on platform 6 or 8. It's obvious now I know it's there!!

When I was stopped I immediately said I was going to the ticket office to buy a ticket. I asked to buy one there and then but the RPO said he couldn't sell me
one.

I was open and honest and explained why I didn't have a ticket. My name, address and DOB were taken. The RPO said that I would just be asked for payment of the fare but I think he just said that to make me leave.

All of your comments are really interesting so far so thanks. The person in the wrong always sees it with rose tinted glasses on so it's good to get a range of opinion.

 

[jon0844]

Doubling up through the gates was a big no no. I'd imagine it makes it near impossible to now convince anyone that you were going to buy a ticket and not just leave.

I accept maybe you didn't know about an excess fares window, but if you'd explained to someone at the gateline then you'd have been directed there - or allowed through (and possibly followed!) to go to the ticket office.

All you can do now is just hope that they'll accept their unofficial penalty fare (the £80 settlement), which would seem likely - although the gateline offence could possibly scupper that.

 

[bb21]

Leave your intentions regarding paying aside for a minute, I struggle to think why anyone would consider double-gating acceptable, even if your intention were to go pay at the ticket office. Why do you think gates only allow one person through at a time?

I think you are clutching at straws here.

 

[Greenback]

Quite. The reason the gates are there is partly to povide a barrier that indicates to someone that they will need to have a ticket to enter or leave the premises.

If you had asked where you could buy a ticket rather than just seize the opportunity of going through behind someone else, you would not be in this situation.

Has this ever happened to you before? Have you ever thought that if Northern couldn't be bothered to sell you a ticket, you couldn't be bothered to go out of your way to buy one?

 

[jon0844]

The OP has certainly admitted to doubling up many times before.

I know the modern gates are slow (and as such doubling or even tripling up isn't that hard) but you're bound to get grief even with a valid ticket. Probably best to not do it EVER.

I'll often walk through a gate that's open for whatever reason though. Once I've been called back and once I've been followed and asked to show my ticket. Both times I had a valid ticket of course (a season), and had just taken the opportunity to save some time.

At King's Cross, the gates are often open at some very odd times of the day, and you'll see a mix of people walking through and those who still put their paper tickets through even though staff might actually say 'just come through' to them.

 

[Eca99mab]

I have double gated on occasions before and have been stopped twice for
my ticket. In fact this is a common occurrence at Leeds.

I normally have a ticket so the ticket inspector asks to see it and I go on my way. On neither occasion have I been reprimanded for doing it.

Hence this is the reason I walked through the barrier right in front of
the RPO. As implausible as it sounds this was my first time without a ticket so naively thought it would be ok.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I seriously regret my actions.

 

[Greenback]

I have double gated on occasions before and have been stopped twice for
my ticket. In fact this is a common occurrence at Leeds.

I normally have a ticket so the ticket inspector asks to see it and I go on my way. On neither occasion have I been reprimanded for doing it.

Hence this is the reason I walked through the barrier right in front of
the RPO. As implausible as it sounds this was my first time without a ticket so naively thought it would be ok.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I seriously regret my actions.

Fair enough, but you can be sure that the questions I posed will be at the forefront of the Northern decision makers minds when they read your account of events.

As for the plausibility, I won't make any comment save for saying we've already established that it is your actions that day that count, and not your thoughts or beliefs about what would be OK.

 

[bb21]

If you double-gate and get pulled up on it (called back to show your ticket), surely that is a clear enough sign that this is not the correct way to use a ticket barrier, or am I being extra thick here?

You need to just admit that you did wrong and were correctly pulled up for it. There are not many more straight-forward cases I have read on this forum.

 

[maniacmartin]

Which platform did you arrive on on the specific occasion that the incident occured?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are not many more straight-forward cases I have read on this forum.

I disagree

 

[Eca99mab]

Platform 9 I think - walked over the bridge and straight through the barriers.

 

[bb21]

I disagree

Reason?

 

[Greenback]

I agree with bb21 that this is one of the more staright forward cases that we get asked for advice on.