Rather large out of court settlement

[Clip]

That isn't the TfL 'conditions of carriage', that's just a ticketing web page. The CofC do use the word 'must':



As has been said every time this requirement is discussed, it isn't normally enforced.

I never said it was - most normal lpeople do not and will not read the full thing - indeed I never have for TfL - I probably havent read the full NRCoC either. BUT as the info page for normal travellers does not state a requirement to touch in for a TC then people have no need to.

And as a side note I seem to be often stopped when going south of the river in Brixton and Stockwell and still nothing has come of me not touching in/out. And Im still not worried about it either.

 

[hassaanhc]

Out of about 6-7 times I've used a mix of Oyster Travelcard and paper boundary zone ticket I've only had issues the last two times I've used that combination, both with Error 22 on returning inside the zones (one was my fault with -£2.20 and almost getting a PF while the other I don't know as I had £0). I've also had a few max time/unauthorised route timeouts inside my zones which have not caused problems.
I believe there is also a requirement to touch in if you will be traveling to outside the zones, and I've seen reports of people being given a PF when they've tried to touch out outside the zones without touching in.

 

[Clip]

There is that requirement though if you are planning to go outside your zones on a TC. Its also worth noting that there are manual announcements that only state you must always touch in and out when using PAYG but never anything about using a TC to do so.

If it is one of those things that must happen but is rarely enforced then that requirement should surely be removed or at least prominently posted on the interfaces that people use.

Ill await my prosecution letter with baited breath

 

[hassaanhc]

Side-note I got tailgated through the wide barrier at Waterloo Jubilee Line the other day, he was so lucky he didn't bump into me/my suitcase and give me time to shout a "what are you doing?" to alert the barrier staff :roll: second time I've been tailgated there. And revenue block at East Ham yesterday with several people being questioned

 

[Clip]

I use the DLR frequently and they have been having some large revenue blocks of late, missus tells me they issued 350 PFs and around 10 prosecutions over 2 weeks. Still didnt get told off for not touching in or out though.

 

[jon0844]

The DLR seems ridiculously easy to travel on for free.

The last time I saw someone get 'caught' on the train, he just said he'd get off and joked that he wouldn't be followed. And he wasn't, so he just laughed and waved as he walked out.

So, sting operations with proper blocks must be the only effective way to deter these people (or at least catch them properly).

With regards to Oyster PAYG, if I currently want to use Oyster PAYG in London, I have to buy a ticket to London Terminals from Hatfield and then switch over. It would be nice if there was a way to virtually touch in/out at the boundary, so I could just buy an extension.

So, I could go to a TVM and set my next journey as going to BZ6 or even a specific station - and if stopped on a train, it would show me as having a valid ticket to there (and then I'd produce the other ticket as necessary to bridge the gap).

Coming the other way, it would need TVMs outside the Oyster area to be suitably equipped, so I realise it's not currently possible - but it would be a really good feature. Especially if you could set it on a regular basis (such as when touching in a certain gateline).

 

[34D]

Ill await my prosecution letter with baited breath

I don't think there is any need for comments like this. I am simply telling you what one ought to do - doesn't bother me either way whether you comply. I assume you pay your fare for all the zones you use, so not an issue.

 

[Clip]

I don't think there is any need for comments like this. I am simply telling you what one ought to do - doesn't bother me either way whether you comply. I assume you pay your fare for all the zones you use, so not an issue.

Oh, there is. There is obviously conflicting info out there as what someone else posted and what I posted contradicts each other.

But the simple fact is is that if you have a TC on your Oyster then you do not need to touch in our out. Its unrealistic.

But I will wait after god knows how many years of owning one and they knowing where I live and me not touching in or out unless there are barriers then I will heed your advice and await a letter from TfL for being a naughty boy. And I will carry on ignoring your advice without any peril whatsoever.

 

[hassaanhc]

I use the DLR frequently and they have been having some large revenue blocks of late, missus tells me they issued 350 PFs and around 10 prosecutions over 2 weeks. Still didnt get told off for not touching in or out though.

I'm on the Beckton branch and I haven't seen any . To be fair I can't see how they would have grounds for being unhappy if you are within your zones and also not in negative PAYG balance, otherwise how would Boundary Zone tickets work? And if you do get an incomplete where the touch was within the travelcard zones you don't get charged a maximum fare either so no problem with that. But then we all know what certain staff can be like... :roll:

350 PFs works out at about 25-30 a day depending on how many days and hours they were carrying out blocks. And it could be for various stuff too, something like just being inside the "compulsory ticket area" without a valid ticket, on the train or even after finishing a journey. I was thinking about misuse of child tickets but that would be dealt with by a prosecution probably. Not too surprised about it though for some reason.

The DLR seems ridiculously easy to travel on for free.

The last time I saw someone get 'caught' on the train, he just said he'd get off and joked that he wouldn't be followed. And he wasn't, so he just laughed and waved as he walked out.

So, sting operations with proper blocks must be the only effective way to deter these people (or at least catch them properly).

With regards to Oyster PAYG, if I currently want to use Oyster PAYG in London, I have to buy a ticket to London Terminals from Hatfield and then switch over. It would be nice if there was a way to virtually touch in/out at the boundary, so I could just buy an extension.

So, I could go to a TVM and set my next journey as going to BZ6 or even a specific station - and if stopped on a train, it would show me as having a valid ticket to there (and then I'd produce the other ticket as necessary to bridge the gap).

Coming the other way, it would need TVMs outside the Oyster area to be suitably equipped, so I realise it's not currently possible - but it would be a really good feature. Especially if you could set it on a regular basis (such as when touching in a certain gateline).

I have a mate who has told me several times to not touch in/out when I used PAYG :roll:. I made it clear to him that I will not do that, I always have "bad luck" so know I'll get stopped, and that the guards (dislike the term PSA) can check tickets at any time (not sure about that but anyway ). Plus as I have a railcard it becomes cheaper for me to use rail outside Zone 1 than a single bus journey (and even without it is only 5p difference, or 15p in peaks where discounts don't apply) so I don't see what there is to be gained by being stingy. He was and still is a holder of a Monthly Z2-4 so its easy for him to say. Another mate with him did get stopped on the train but managed to get away somehow. They do have this attitude of "they can't do nothing to me" which says it all really :roll:.

There are still oyster readers on platforms at Upminster, Barking, West Ham and Stratford so if you are lucky enough to use services from those stations you could easily mix PAYG and paper tickets. I almost did once until I remembered that Oyster is indeed valid at Chafford Hundred :P. The platform standalone readers have been removed at many stations due to fraud though "short fares". Struggling to see how to implement your idea though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And even though there is no need to touch in/out with travelcards on Oyster I still do in order to keep a record of where I've travelled and to just be on the safe side in case I decide to change where I'm going and leave my Oyster zones (plus RPIs too).

And this:

DLR B92, Gallions Reach - Canning Town (lower)
DLR B92 55, Canning Town (upper) - Poplar
DLR B07, Poplar - Stratford
DLR B92 91, Stratford - Canary Wharf
Jubilee Line, Canary Wharf - London Bridge
Southeastern Class 376, London Bridge - Waterloo East
SWT Class 455/7, Waterloo - Wimbledon
District Line 21411, Wimbledon - Earl's Court
District Line 17008, Earl's Court - Gloucester Road (attempt to get something from Tesco but there was a huge queue!)
Circle Line S Stock, Gloucester Road - Tower Hill
DLR B92, Tower Gateway - Gallions Reach

translated into this on my Oyster records, no max fare inside my zones or issues with barriers:

22:07 - 23:04 Gloucester Road to Gallions Reach DLR
£0.00 £1.65
???? - 22:04 [No touch-in] to Gloucester Road £0.00 £1.65
19:40 - ???? Gallions Reach DLR to [No touch-out] £0.00 £1.65

Touches were at Gallions Reach (in); Canary Wharf (in); Waterloo (out/in); Gloucester Road (out); Gloucester Road (in); Tower Hill (out); Tower Gateway (in); Gallions Reach (out).

 

[Clip]

I think they were mainly on the Southern route for the sting as thats where they have most issues apparently.

And yes, the train captains(as me lass calls herself but never a guard as they are not guards) should be checking tickets but they have instructions not to do so in certain stretches of track.

And as an aside to this whole TC/Oyster thing I dont see why there is the requirement to touch in if you have one on your Oyster - its putting you at a disadvantage over holding a paper ticket - its just the medium which is differrent.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The T&Cs say you should. In practice, nobody does, no staff will expect you to, and no RPI will ever pull anyone up for it. Why has this taken so much arguing?

On the more interesting topic of interchange validators, I think TfL should mandate their installation at least at stations where you can change between TfL rail and services from outside the zones. It's insane that at Clapham Junction one has to go to the gateline furthest away from the LO platforms to touch in/out. Yes, they can be used for fraud. No, their removal doesn't stop actual fraudsters, who can take an extra pass through a gateline. It only inconveniences everybody.

 

[Clip]

The T&Cs say you should. In practice, nobody does, no staff will expect you to, and no RPI will ever pull anyone up for it. Why has this taken so much arguing?

.

Because I am now scared of TfL coming to prosecute me for journeys not completed.

Its a stupid clause hidden from the public and one which puts the Oyster user at a disadvantage for using a TC Oyster - they know this but have not adjusted it. To tell someone to watch out when they go to a zone 4 unbarriered station is very false. Unless theyre after me?

 

[Tibbs]

Because I am now scared of TfL coming to prosecute me for journeys not completed.

Its a stupid clause hidden from the public and one which puts the Oyster user at a disadvantage for using a TC Oyster - they know this but have not adjusted it. To tell someone to watch out when they go to a zone 4 unbarriered station is very false. Unless theyre after me?

If they ever prosecute for incomplete journies I'm screwed - there's at least one incomplete journey on every workday on my Oyster for the last 6 months or so. Depending on where my train leave at Euston, whole days go by that I don't touch at all, quelle horreur! :roll:

 

[SansPareil]

I use the DLR frequently and they have been having some large revenue blocks of late, missus tells me they issued 350 PFs and around 10 prosecutions over 2 weeks. Still didnt get told off for not touching in or out though.

Did they remember to block the emergency access at Shadwell? I must see about half a dozen people using that to enter or leave the station per train that calls there. Some may be travelcard holders, but probably not all.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In a previous job, I used to work with somebody who commuted from Southend in NSE days (so pre-C2C/oyster) and he told me that it worked out cheaper for him to pay a PF every once in a while than pay for an annual season ticket.

 

[455driver]

In a previous job, I used to work with somebody who commuted from Southend in NSE days (so pre-C2C/oyster) and he told me that it worked out cheaper for him to pay a PF every once in a while than pay for an annual season ticket.

Until they see that he has had a few PFs and decide to prosecute him as a persistent fare dodger!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Well I guess so and it would serve him right! But as I left this previous job, I don't know the guy anymore so have now idea what he does these days. I'm sure the introduction of Oyster would have made things more difficult for him.

 

[island]

Looks like there might be another chapter to this one. Today's Sunday Times reports that the BTP is considering taking a prosecution in the matter.

 

[Merseysider]

Looks like there might be another chapter to this one. Today's Sunday Times reports that the BTP is considering taking a prosecution in the matter.

Excellent news. His actions were nothing other than criminal.

 

[causton]

Until they see that he has had a few PFs and decide to prosecute him as a persistent fare dodger!

As an anecdote from:
a) When I was in school, classmates who have told me about their fare dodging ways
b) Watching people getting Penalty Fared at Hatfield at a revenue block late one evening

...most of the time, if you pay the fine on the spot, it is not linked to your name as the personal details field is left blank. So if he just straight out gives them £20 right away each time, maybe not!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Is that how it's meant to be, or is that an unofficial arrangement with the RPIs? It sounds like rather a silly flaw if the former.

 

[MyFriendMary]

Is that how it's meant to be, or is that an unofficial arrangement with the RPIs? It sounds like rather a silly flaw if the former.

Half and half.

If I am issuing a PF and the person is willing to pay there-and-then with a £20 note, the process is a lot quicker. There's less need to check details as the fare is being paid in full, that is unless I suspect there's more to it.

(E.g. issued a PF and the person gave me their name and decided to instead pay by bank card. Which carried a different name to the one given)

 

[PermitToTravel]

I understand why that happens and appreciate that it must be quicker and easier.

I'm dreaming of an ideal world where details are taken every time and routinely checked, and anyone with history can be given some special attention

 

[tony6499]

When I was doing penalty fares many would hand over the £20 and refuse to give details so the ticket was issued and marked details not given, of course by this time the person had long gone so all copies left in the pad

 

[londiscape]

Is that how it's meant to be, or is that an unofficial arrangement with the RPIs? It sounds like rather a silly flaw if the former.

I have to disagree. Have been PF'ed in the past (SWT RPI, very polite and pleasant gentleman), PF correctly issued due to genuine mistake on my part, no argument. £20 paid on the spot, job done, I get on my way and get to my meeting on time. I appreciate SWT not asking for my personal details as I prefer to keep the number of organisations possessing my details to a minimum.

I would prefer that others in a similar situation be treated in the same way.

 

[telstarbox]

It does mean that repeat offenders could get away with it more easily.

 

[island]

I have to disagree. Have been PF'ed in the past (SWT RPI, very polite and pleasant gentleman), PF correctly issued due to genuine mistake on my part, no argument. £20 paid on the spot, job done, I get on my way and get to my meeting on time. I appreciate SWT not asking for my personal details as I prefer to keep the number of organisations possessing my details to a minimum.

I would prefer that others in a similar situation be treated in the same way.

It is an offence to fail to give your name and address if requested in this scenario.

 

[Jonny]

Looks like there might be another chapter to this one. Today's Sunday Times reports that the BTP is considering taking a prosecution in the matter.

That would set a bad precedent regarding out-of-court settlements - assuming of course that the original one covered everything in the first place. After all, the whole point of an out-of-court settlement is that it's the end of the matter...

 

[richw]

It is an offence to fail to give your name and address if requested in this scenario.

I'm not so sure it is, as all publically available documentation states the important line:

having failed to pay his fare,

Prior to the part where it states they are required to provide name and address and failure to do so is an offence. So therefore once that fare issued is paid there is no further requirement to provide name and address.

It could be easily argued that once they have paid their penalty fare they have now paid their fare so therefore is not require to provide name and address. We have discussed to the death and back again here that a penalty fare is a Fare, so if paid immediately on request there is no offence in not providing name and address for a penalty fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would set a bad precedent regarding out-of-court settlements - assuming of course that the original one covered everything in the first place. After all, the whole point of an out-of-court settlement is that it's the end of the matter...

If documentation issued states its full and final settlement of the matter, then that is the end of the matter and neither party can pursue further.

 

[jon0844]

But TOCs often keep a record of how many PFs they've issues, with a view to not offering them to those who have had a certain number (I was once told it was 3, but this was in the Wagn days).

Bear in mind those who used to have the money in their hands when caught. If they never had to give their details they'd continue not paying and just paying a PF in full, without argument, every once in a while.