Ticket office closure

[Islineclear3_1]

Good evening

I travel on SouthEastern occasionally. Where do I stand if I turn up at a station whose ticket office is closed, the TVM machine doesn't work and the permit to travel machine is non-existent?

What options do I have?

Not allowed to board any train from that station

Get on the train and pay at the other end?

Get on the train and ask the guard or RPI for a ticket (telling them the mitigating circumstances etc)

Is the onus on "me" to prove that I was unable to purchase a ticket before my journey? Could a RPI issue me with a "penalty fare" or an "Intent of Prosecution" for evading the fare?

 

[Clip]

Take a picture of the TVM out of use. Use a help point to notify control that there are no ticket issuing facilities and try and take the name of the person you spoke to and also make a note of the time you did so as all calls a recorded for your pleasure.

 

[NSEFAN]

You have to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity. If no such opportunity exists at the station (even if it does normally), then you can buy the ticket you require on the train. The next opportunity after that is your destination station.

I wouldn't say you have to prove that there was no opportunity to buy, although taking a picture on your phone may convince the RPI/guard if they are unaware of the situation. Actively seeking out the guard/RPI on the train is also not required, but again it shows that you are willing to pay the correct fare.

 

[185]

Unauthorised ticket office closures must be reported to the regulators (ORR, DfT and TfL if applicable) which oversee the train companies. This is especially the case in penalty fare areas.

If closed during booked advertised hours, I would encourage taking a discreet photograph of the offending office.

 

[LexyBoy]

As others have said, you must purchase a ticket at the first opportunity. If there is no way of buying a ticket or permit to travel, this would be from the guard (if present) or at an interchange, or at your destination. If your destination has only a ticket machine, it is not technically possible to buy the ticket you require; personally I would buy a "reverse" ticket.

Is the onus on "me" to prove that I was unable to purchase a ticket before my journey? Could a RPI issue me with a "penalty fare" or an "Intent of Prosecution" for evading the fare?

Legally speaking, I don't know. Practically, yes it is up to you to prove you couldn't buy a ticket. If you can't then you are relying on the TOC's records being correct as if they show the TVM as working you'd be in a fix. An RPI could issue you a Penalty Fare or take your details for prosecution if they didn't believe you - having evidence that the ticket machine wasn't working will help avoid this (or in appealing).

This probably sounds paranoid, but SE are fairly strict, at least in the metro area, so it's sensible to be careful. Generally, staff know about such things or at least are willing to take your word for it. The important thing is to ask for a ticket, rather than be asked.

 

[island]

You would do well to get and keep evidence of the ticketing facilities being out of order. It is not a legal requirement that you do this but it is likely to save a lot of trouble in the event you encounter an RPI. Unless you're travelling to a London terminal or Dartford or Greenhithe, you probably won't encounter a Southeastern RPI, but you should still obtain the ticket you require on the train if there is a guard or at your destination if there is a booking office.

In my opinion, which is by no means correct, binding, or anything else, if there is no functioning ticketing facilities at the station where you start and only a TVM at your destination, then you are not obliged to buy a reverse ticket if the TVM doesn't sell them and you do not need to pay.

 

[34D]

. If your destination has only a ticket machine, it is not technically possible to buy the ticket you require; personally I would buy a "reverse" ticket.

We have previously discussed this, but my advice is NOT to do this, as it could lead to hassle on your journey back home (which technically is on an invalid OUT portion - invalidated by use of the RTN portion).

I don't know if there is a forum view, but I wouldn't like to read people suggesting this again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my opinion, which is by no means correct, binding, or anything else, if there is no functioning ticketing facilities at the station where you start and only a TVM at your destination, then you are not obliged to buy a reverse ticket if the TVM doesn't sell them and you do not need to pay.

My personal view is in complete accordance with this.

 

[LexyBoy]

We have previously discussed this, but my advice is NOT to do this, as it could lead to hassle on your journey back home (which technically is on an invalid OUT portion - invalidated by use of the RTN portion).

I don't know if there is a forum view, but I wouldn't like to read people suggesting this again.

I did make it clear that that is what I would do, not advice.

I don't know how a court would see it, but from a layman's moral perspective, buying a reverse ticket (which is most likely identically priced) is far superior to paying nothing.

If, say, there were a sting out of view of the destination platform/TVM, I would be shocked if someone having bought a reverse ticket were treated more harshly than someone with no ticket. And in the scenario you describe, it would be implausible for anyone to know the "OUT" ticket has already been used.

By the time you get to a destination with no barriers or ticket office, most people would consider that they had just got a free ride, and be correct in this. Trying to buy a ticket - any ticket - would only be done by someone trying to do the right thing and is probably going to be irrelevant to anything but their sense of justice.

 

[Clip]

We have previously discussed this, but my advice is NOT to do this, as it could lead to hassle on your journey back home (which technically is on an invalid OUT portion - invalidated by use of the RTN portion).

I don't know if there is a forum view, but I wouldn't like to read people suggesting this again.

If it was a passenger at one of my stations who had to do this then I would be more than happy to endorse it. Fare paid = Happy Clip.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Thank you all for your replies.

On the odd occasion, I have need to travel on the first train of the day from a London suburban station on the weekend. Often the ticket office isn't open (and I don't take an interest in the opening hours) and I haven't yet had the misfortune of the TVM being out of use. And my line is DOO and therefore no guard.

I am very paranoid knowing what some of the barrier staff/RPIs might be like at the terminal station. But from a layman's POV, if the TOC can't provide a working ticket machine, then it is not my fault if I am unable to purchase a ticket, so clearly (as most of you have said), my only option is to buy at the terminal station upon arrival.

Then of course, this raises another point...if I'm travelling the other way (away from London), I often have to change to a mainline service to continue my journey. Do I have to get off at the interchange station and ask to be let through the barriers to purchase a ticket from my origin station or can I still purchase a ticket from the guard on the main-line service stating my station of origin?

 

[island]

You are expected to buy a ticket at your interchange station if it is practicable.

 

[yorkie]

Then of course, this raises another point...if I'm travelling the other way (away from London), I often have to change to a mainline service to continue my journey. Do I have to get off at the interchange station and ask to be let through the barriers to purchase a ticket from my origin station or can I still purchase a ticket from the guard on the main-line service stating my station of origin?

That depends; you could tell us the name of the station and provide your itinerary and we can then give appropriate advice. But obviously that's not going to happen, so you'll have to make your own judgement as to whether or not you "have to" do that.

But, for certain, you do not "have to" miss your train at your interchange station.

However if there is sufficient time to purchase a ticket at your interchange station, then questions could be asked if you do not do so. At some stations and at certain times, that could be subjective and may depend on how mobile you are and how much luggage you're carrying...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Thanks again all. I tend to find guards more accommodating than RPIs as a rule and seeing how the latter seem to criminalise people (IMHO) rather too quickly makes me even more paranoid.

 

[bb21]

Another interpretation is that if your interchange station has ticket issuing facilities to sell you the required ticket, you must use it, regardless of whether you miss your onward connection or not, as it is the "first available opportunity".

I do not necessarily agree with it but this has never been tested in court, so I thought youu need to know the full picture of arguments from both sides.

 

[Tom B]

Another interpretation is that if your interchange station has ticket issuing facilities to sell you the required ticket, you must use it, regardless of whether you miss your onward connection or not, as it is the "first available opportunity".

I do not necessarily agree with it but this has never been tested in court, so I thought youu need to know the full picture of arguments from both sides.

In such a case, would a passenger be able to obtain a Delay-Repay refund if they missed their train as they were delayed at the interchange due to a failing of the TOC (i.e. their being unable to purchase a ticket initially).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Another interpretation is that if your interchange station has ticket issuing facilities to sell you the required ticket, you must use it, regardless of whether you miss your onward connection or not, as it is the "first available opportunity".

I do not necessarily agree with it but this has never been tested in court, so I thought youu need to know the full picture of arguments from both sides.

Thanks for this.

I don't commute on SouthEastern so don't know about delay-repay but thank you to everyone who have made things clear.

 

[bb21]

In such a case, would a passenger be able to obtain a Delay-Repay refund if they missed their train as they were delayed at the interchange due to a failing of the TOC (i.e. their being unable to purchase a ticket initially).

No idea.

Would need someone to be a guinea pig to find out.

 

[VauxhallandI]

If a RPI has decided he doesn't like your story how is a uncertified mobile phone picture of a shut door or broken Ticket machine or a PTT machine going to convince him?

Do we really need to wander around like David Bailey, it's ridiculous. People just want to get from A to B not start a portfolio of defence material on a day trip

 

[jkdd77]

Another interpretation is that if your interchange station has ticket issuing facilities to sell you the required ticket, you must use it, regardless of whether you miss your onward connection or not, as it is the "first available opportunity".

I do not necessarily agree with it but this has never been tested in court, so I thought youu need to know the full picture of arguments from both sides.

I dimly recall a thread on the CAG forums a few years ago (I can't find the link), whereby a person in this situation, having boarded at a station with no purchase facilities whatsoever, and having sought, but failed to find, the guard on the 'first' train, arrived at a major interchange station a few minutes late.

Not having had time to purchase a ticket at the interchange station, he/she boarded the 'second' train without a ticket, and immediately attempted to approach the 'guard' (actually a RPI) to buy a ticket, only to be reported for prosecution, and sent a written demand for c. £80 to avoid being prosecuted.

I think the stations in question were Patchway and Reading (having travelled on a direct train from Patchway to Reading due to engineering works in the Bristol Parkway/ Swindon area).

The unanimous advice on the CAG forums was that the passenger was absolutely guilty of fare evasion and should pay up immediately. That said, the CAG forum tends to tell everyone that they are guilty and to pay up, even when this is questionable at best, and at least one current member continues to insist (incorrectly, IMO) that it is "fare evasion and fraud" to buy a A to D season ticket, valid via B and C, to regularly travel from B to C to save money on the B to C season price.

If the situation is that there is an arguable defence, but that it would be safer and less hassle to pay anyway, then, IMO, this should be properly explained to an OP, rather than simply telling them that they are guilty.

I recall RJ posted on the CAG forums at the same time as he posted on here in relation to one of his disputes, and was told on that forum that he was absolutely guilty and to pay up. Needless to say, subsequent circumstances suggest otherwise.

With reference to the ongoing thread 'Ticket Office Closure', and with reference to RJ's adventures, I do suspect that there are at least some cases where TOCs extort money from passengers with valid tickets by giving them PFs and/or threatening them with prosecution unless a ransom is paid, despite knowing that their ticket are valid.

 

[Flamingo]

I dimly recall a thread on the CAG forums a few years ago (I can't find the link), whereby a person in this situation, having boarded at a station with no purchase facilities whatsoever, and having sought, but failed to find, the guard on the 'first' train, arrived at a major interchange station a few minutes late.

Not having had time to purchase a ticket at the interchange station, he/she boarded the 'second' train without a ticket, and immediately attempted to approach the 'guard' (actually a RPI) to buy a ticket, only to be reported for prosecution, and sent a written demand for c. £80 to avoid being prosecuted.

I think the stations in question were Patchway and Reading (having travelled on a direct train from Patchway to Reading due to engineering works in the Bristol Parkway/ Swindon area).

The unanimous advice on the CAG forums was that the passenger was absolutely guilty of fare evasion and should pay up immediately. That said, the CAG forum tends to tell everyone that they are guilty and to pay up, even when this is questionable at best, and at least one current member continues to insist (incorrectly, IMO) that it is "fare evasion and fraud" to buy a A to D season ticket, valid via B and C, to regularly travel from B to C to save money on the B to C season price.

If the situation is that there is an arguable defence, but that it would be safer and less hassle to pay anyway, then, IMO, this should be properly explained to an OP, rather than simply telling them that they are guilty.

I recall RJ posted on the CAG forums at the same time as he posted on here in relation to one of his disputes, and was told on that forum that he was absolutely guilty and to pay up. Needless to say, subsequent circumstances suggest otherwise.

With reference to the ongoing thread 'Ticket Office Closure', and with reference to RJ's adventures, I do suspect that there are at least some cases where TOCs extort money from passengers with valid tickets by giving them PFs and/or threatening them with prosecution unless a ransom is paid, despite knowing that their ticket are valid.

If he boarded at Patchway and couldn't find the guard he was unlucky, most trains from Patchway are two cars and the guard should be very visible on the platform - and a HST from Bristol Temple Meads to Reading should also have a TM passing through it at least once in a journey, I would have thought...

RJ's tickets are a special case, and I don't think apply to pretty much any other passenger in the country, I've certainly never encountered anybody with a combination like that in ten years of checking them. (A Didcot Parkway spilt is as creative as 99.9% get.) And TOC's do accept his tickets, he's not said he's been to court yet!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Someone else posted a remark rather similar to this only yesterday:

. . . . . . I do suspect that there are at least some cases where TOCs extort money from passengers with valid tickets by giving them PFs and/or threatening them with prosecution unless a ransom is paid, despite knowing that their ticket are valid.

I challenged the other member to specify the 'cases' in which passengers presenting valid tickets were subject to 'extortion' and 'threats'. Those details were not forthcoming and appeared to be based on hearsay.

It seems only fair that I make the same observation on here, although jkdd77 does make it clear that it is only a suspicion.

I'm sure we would all be interested to know of any instances where this does occur and to make it widely known, but at present it appears to be unsubstantiated.

 

[PermitToTravel]

If he boarded at Patchway and couldn't find the guard he was unlucky, most trains from Patchway are two cars and the guard should be very visible on the platform - and a HST from Bristol Temple Meads to Reading should also have a TM passing through it at least once in a journey, I would have thought..

I think jkdd77 said that it was an unusual direct train from Patchway to Reading. Would this have been a HST?

The guard coming through the train cannot always be relied on either, particularly on HSTs in my experience

 

[jkdd77]

As I recall, the train from Patchway to Reading was indeed a HST diverted via Bristol Temple Meads, and not stopping at Bristol Parkway at all, owing to engineering works between Bristol Parkway and Swindon.

Having previously lived in Patchway, I once travelled on such a direct Patchway (via Bristol Temple Meads) to Reading HST (with the train then going on to Paddington) service myself.

Perhaps, on reflection, the use of the word "ransom" in my previous post was a bit strong.

However, it does seem that there is something of a 'Jekyll and Hyde' divide between customer service departments who seem to think that "the customer is always right" (I'm sure Flamingo can supply examples ) and certain prosecution departments who seem to think that "the passenger is always lying, thieving, scum", even when, in individual cases, there is considerable evidence to the contrary.

In some cases, a passenger who has, or may conceivably have, a viable defence (as, arguably, did the CAG poster, if my memory is correct) may nonetheless feel pressured into paying the PF/ 'out of court settlement' because they do not want the time, stress and hassle of dealing with the likely prosecution if it is not settled, nor to risk a possible large fine and criminal record if the magistrates decided to agree with bb21's interpretation and so to convict under s.5(3) Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

In my view, this is highly unfortunate, although, on reflection, I'm not sure what exactly can realistically be done about this; it is not really different from a (hypothetical) person falsely accused of mobile phone use by the police paying the £100 FPN (with three points) regardless because they do not fancy their chances against the word of a police officer in a magistrates' court.

I would support a rise in the PF to £80, in return for certain existing 'grey areas' being resolved in favour of the passenger (e.g. a cash-only passenger boarding at a station with merely a card-only TVM), and for a guarantee that no passenger be left 'out of pocket', relative to the fare they ought to have paid, as a result of being incorrectly issued a PF.

For example, if a passenger genuinely boarding at a station with no purchase facilities, who should have been sold a CDR, is instead charged a PF for the outward journey, and then has to buy a CDS for their return journey at 10p less than a CDR, then merely refunding (or cancelling) the difference between the PF and a SDS would seem to be inadequate restitution for the passenger. This may be even more obvious if the passenger is then made to buy a full priced SDS from the next stop in addition to being charged a PF.

 

[Flamingo]

If it was a direct Patchway-Reading service on a weekend, I have to admit some of my colleagues from certain depots (no names, no pack drill) don't do Std class tickets at weekends.

However, they would not be liable for a PF at Reading coming from Patchway, and I would be more than surprised to find RPI's at Reading on a Sunday except during Reading Festival.

I still think there is a bit more to the story than that...

 

[bb21]

nor to risk a possible large fine and criminal record if the magistrates decided to agree with bb21's interpretation and so to convict under s.5(3) Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

In case you get the wrong idea, it wasn't my interpretation. I was just quoting from someone from a previous discussion.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I dimly recall a thread on the CAG forums a few years ago (I can't find the link), whereby a person in this situation, having boarded at a station with no purchase facilities whatsoever, and having sought, but failed to find, the guard on the 'first' train, arrived at a major interchange station a few minutes late.

Not having had time to purchase a ticket at the interchange station, he/she boarded the 'second' train without a ticket, and immediately attempted to approach the 'guard' (actually a RPI) to buy a ticket, only to be reported for prosecution, and sent a written demand for c. £80 to avoid being prosecuted.

I think the stations in question were Patchway and Reading (having travelled on a direct train from Patchway to Reading due to engineering works in the Bristol Parkway/ Swindon area).

The unanimous advice on the CAG forums was that the passenger was absolutely guilty of fare evasion and should pay up immediately.

I challenge the fact that this person was "absolutely guilty of fare evasion" when he tried to find the guard in order to purchase a ticket on both the first and second train

 

[455driver]

I challenge the fact that this person was "absolutely guilty of fare evasion" when he tried to find the guard in order to purchase a ticket on both the first and second train

I challenge the fact that they couldnt find the guard on the train (assuming it wasnt a DOO train which dont run in that area) as they are quite easy to find!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think that he (claimed, at least) tried to find the guard and found an RPI first.

 

[bb21]

I challenge the fact that this person was "absolutely guilty of fare evasion" when he tried to find the guard in order to purchase a ticket on both the first and second train

The point of this being?

He was only quoting a case from ages ago.

 

[WelshBluebird]

in regards to buying tickets at interchange stations, I normally have more than enough time while changing at Bristol Temple Meads so will buy a ticket. The few times I have not had chance due to delays, the guards / TMs on the connecting services or the staff at my destination have nearly always been happy to sell me a ticket.

The only time I have had trouble was when there was no staff platform side at Bristol Temple Meads selling tickets, so I had to go to the ticket office. There was a massive queue there and by the time I bought my ticket I had missed the train I was planning on getting. Didn't really fancy arguing with staff about the fact only one ticket window was open when the station was so busy, so just let it slide as "one of those things".

If he boarded at Patchway and couldn't find the guard he was unlucky, most trains from Patchway are two cars and the guard should be very visible on the platform - and a HST from Bristol Temple Meads to Reading should also have a TM passing through it at least once in a journey, I would have thought...

To be fair I have found it fairly common (still the minority of times, buts till quite common) for guards on FGW services around Bristol to not walk through the train at all and to just remain in the back cab for the entire journey with the exception of opening the doors. And similarly with the HST's, I have been one several from Bath to London where either no ticket check has taken place in my carriage or the check was between Reading and London.

Of course that is my personal experience, and the next person who posts will probably have the total opposite experience!!

I challenge the fact that they couldnt find the guard on the train (assuming it wasnt a DOO train which dont run in that area) as they are quite easy to find!

Even if they stay in the back cab for the entire journey?