My Idea for swapping Railway Shutdown Days

[dk1]

OK, that may not be possible for long distance services which need to do long ECS runs to get back to the depot. But on local lines, surely it shouldn't be too much of a problem. In the West Midlands area, I think almost all units are back at their depots by 1am.

Would not be good at Norwich Crown Point & thank goodness it will never have to be. There is no need to run a full service on New Years Eve on many local routes either. Most passengers are amazed that we do run such a service & trains in my experience run around with a handful of passengers if not empty after 22.00. Last time i did the last Cambridge the train had 2 numpties on from Thetford who wanted to be in Norwich for midnight. if only they could read a timetable they would have noticed we arrive at 00.08!!! I wished them a happy new year over the PA shortly after departing Wymondham

 

[Batman]

Would not be good at Norwich Crown Point & thank goodness it will never have to be. There is no need to run a full service on New Years Eve on many local routes either. Most passengers are amazed that we do run such a service & trains in my experience run around with a handful of passengers if not empty after 22.00.

I've always thought that if the railways did run a normal timetable on the evening of Christmas Eve it would probably be quite well used, especially by people returning home from a night out. As anyone who works in the hospitality industry will tell you, Christmas Eve is one of the busiest nights of the year. Most, if not all of the entertainment venues on Birmingham's Broad Street are open on Christmas Eve and some stay open till 4am as normal. So don't get the impression everyone is tucked up in bed by then waiting for Santa Clause.

 

[G0ORC]

Well, we've heard non-stop from drivers, conductors, engineers, station staff etc but has anyone mentioned signallers/controllers etc on here except under the generic "NR staff" banner? Even with no trains running, signalling centres/PSBs/control rooms/ECCs have to be manned by at least two staff capable of dealing with emergencies.

Without them nothing moves on Christmas Day, Boxing Day or even Bank Holiday Wednesday.

What are they contacted to work? I'm speaking as someone who, in 39 year railway career, worked almost every Christmas Day and Boxing Day (for advanced pay, yes but no day in lieu)

 

[dk1]

I've always thought that if the railways did run a normal timetable on the evening of Christmas Eve it would probably be quite well used, especially by people returning home from a night out. As anyone who works in the hospitality industry will tell you, Christmas Eve is one of the busiest nights of the year. Most, if not all of the entertainment venues on Birmingham's Broad Street are open on Christmas Eve and some stay open till 4am as normal. So don't get the impression everyone is tucked up in bed by then waiting for Santa Clause.

Thats exactly why we don't want to run trains late on Christmas Eve or anytime for drunken clubbers for that matter. Nothing but hassle for very little return. You would need police assistance as staff would flatly refuse to take trains & then you've got the vomit that goes with it. It is hardly going to be a profitable operation is it & why would any railway company be interested? I like a few beers as much as the next person & used to go clubbing every Friday & Saturday but even then mates used to say that trains would be packed from Norwich to Yarmouth if they operated til 03.00. I used to say oh yes, we will have staff sitting around for hours just to run trains at 2am kicking out time that will be nothing short of a nightmare. People only see it from their own point of view rather than from a commercial operation. Trust me after 29years on the railway it really is not a good idea & most definatley not in the early hours of Christmas day when staff could get home early to celebrate themselves & be with their families. Let the minibus & taxi drivers have the trade. They are welcome to it.

 

[Batman]

Thats exactly why we don't want to run trains late on Christmas Eve or anytime for drunken clubbers for that matter. Nothing but hassle for very little return. You would need police assistance as staff would flatly refuse to take trains & then you've got the vomit that goes with it. It is hardly going to be a profitable operation is it & why would any railway company be interested? I like a few beers as much as the next person & used to go clubbing every Friday & Saturday but even then mates used to say that trains would be packed from Norwich to Yarmouth if they operated til 03.00. I used to say oh yes, we will have staff sitting around for hours just to run trains at 2am kicking out time that will be nothing short of a nightmare. People only see it from their own point of view rather than from a commercial operation. Trust me after 29years on the railway it really is not a good idea & most definatley not in the early hours of Christmas day when staff could get home early to celebrate themselves & be with their families. Let the minibus & taxi drivers have the trade. They are welcome to it.

I'm not suggesting trains keep on running into the early hours of the morning, just that they keep on running till the normal end of service, not 8pm ish, which is what London Midland did last year.

 

[dk1]

I'm not suggesting trains keep on running into the early hours of the morning, just that they keep on running till the normal end of service, not 8pm ish, which is what London Midland did last year.

Seems pretty across the board. We run down from 19.00. Diagrams for trains & crews are very complex & as i stated its not just getting back to the depot. You've got to put everything to bed & completley shut & secure the network down. There are no shifts coming on from 04.00 that can help that is it & nobody is going to be interested in helping if things go wrong which you must always plan for this. Its Christmas & if you want to go out, do it nearer to home. Trains ain't going to be there for this one time a year.

 

[Batman]

. Its Christmas & if you want to go out, do it nearer to home. Trains ain't going to be there for this one time a year.

But then you go back to the question of what takes priority: the operational convenience of the railways and their staff, or the interests of the travelling public who view the railways as public service and who think it's unreasonable that the railways are shutting down early on what for many people is just a normal working day.

Without sounding patronising, my answer would be that the needs of the public come first and if railway staff have to work into the early hours of the morning on Christmas day, then so be it.

 

[455driver]

Seems pretty across the board. We run down from 19.00. Diagrams for trains & crews are very complex & as i stated its not just getting back to the depot. You've got to put everything to bed & completley shut & secure the network down. There are no shifts coming on from 04.00 that can help that is it & nobody is going to be interested in helping if things go wrong which you must always plan for this. Its Christmas & if you want to go out, do it nearer to home. Trains ain't going to be there for this one time a year.

Why has nobody mentioned the trains being cleaned before the cleaners can knock off?
Or would you like the train left for a couple of days before it was cleaned!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But then you go back to the question of what takes priority: the operational convenience of the railways and their staff, or the interests of the travelling public who view the railways as public service and who think it's unreasonable that the railways are shutting down early on what for many people is just a normal working day.

Without sounding patronising, my answer would be that the needs of the public come first and if railway staff have to work into the early hours of the morning on Christmas day, then so be it.

the railways are not a public service in the strictest sense though are they, they are a lot of private companies who run trains so they can make a profit. If somebody was willing to pay for the services then I am certain one could be sorted out, but as nobody is willing to hand over the hard cash for it then it wont happen so get used to it!

 

[dk1]

This goes round & round in circles every year & but not usually in April

We must agree to differ but in this instance, in my opinion, it is most definatley in the words of BR a case of 'operationally convenient'. Im happy for it to stay that way & see no sign that it will change.

 

[LBSCR Times]

As someone who has worked nights over Christmas, during BR days you just accepted it. But once BR stopped running trains on Boxing Day, it beacme more difficult to get staff to work Boxing Day, let alone Christmas night.
NR Control staff are paid a considerable amount of money for working over Christmas, some of whom take home over a thousand pounds.........!!
TOC Control staff are on considerably less generous conditions, often getting no more than a basic salary and a day off another time!

 

[Flamingo]

A few years ago I worked the last train from London to Swansea on Christmas Eve. After we passed Reading, you could have comfortably fitted everybody on board into a minibus, at one stage there were eight people on board.

Where is the demand?

 

[dk1]

A few years ago I worked the last train from London to Swansea on Christmas Eve. After we passed Reading, you could have comfortably fitted everybody on board into a minibus, at one stage there were eight people on board.

Where is the demand?

In the heads of those that think this is a perfect world that revolves around themselves.

 

[DarloRich]

But then you go back to the question of what takes priority: the operational convenience of the railways and their staff, or the interests of the travelling public who view the railways as public service and who think it's unreasonable that the railways are shutting down early on what for many people is just a normal working day.

Without sounding patronising, my answer would be that the needs of the public come first and if railway staff have to work into the early hours of the morning on Christmas day, then so be it.

Not a problem - who is paying for it? How do you propose to "buy out" the current staff terms and conditions? How do you propose to agree a new contract for all operational staff to cover this?

Also consider that large engineering blocks need the 72 (or plus) hour window Christmas offers. When shall that work be done? Finally, most people dont work a full day on Christmas eve. I have never been in work after 13:00 and i know few who are. I am not convinced that, really, there is actual demand for Christmas day or boxing day services.

 

[LowLevel]

But then you go back to the question of what takes priority: the operational convenience of the railways and their staff, or the interests of the travelling public who view the railways as public service and who think it's unreasonable that the railways are shutting down early on what for many people is just a normal working day.

Without sounding patronising, my answer would be that the needs of the public come first and if railway staff have to work into the early hours of the morning on Christmas day, then so be it.

For the benefit of a moderate number of cheap off peak local journeys that won't even cover the cost of running the train (if they pay, I don't do revenue on trains full of drunks unless I have security with me - there's another cost to factor in - gateline staff in most places have generally cleared off well before the end of service anyway so there's no revenue protection)?

The other point, which is repeated and then ignored as if it's only a minor irritation, is that in actual fact, it's not so be it, we don't have to, and aren't going to, work these shifts, so be it

I honestly do not care about servicing the needs of several distinct groups of passengers (I won't say customers, as it's by no means certain that they will pay).

1) Drunk sports fans (I won't say football fans as I'll be accused of sport racism)
2) Drunk clubbing types, particularly at 6am when no one wants to hear their rubbish, although anytime after about 1900 on a Saturday night seems to be no man's land
3) Cyclists
4) Thugs, yobs and other general criminal types who think they own the place and cause trouble. Particularly when drunk

As the main beneficiaries of these services are likely to fall into at least one of these categories, the chances of my agreeing to vary my contract to cater for them are slim to non-existent.

So to sum up -

It won't pay for itself without subsidy, it's obviously not a franchise requirement, so the train companies won't want to cover the cost

Generally the people who are required to make it happen, IE the staff, seem to have no interest in doing so

If you advertise it and it can't happen for whatever reason, NR adjusting a retaining wall or replanting a shrubbery, it then becomes an organisational nightmare to provide replacement transport

Please continue to debate if you will, but I can't see the point where the pros are going to so heavily overweigh the cons as to make it worthwhile. If you give me £1000, I may consider being the guard on a scheduled train arriving into a station on Christmas Day morning. However then you certainly won't make any money, particularly as market forces mean Mr Driver will probably pick up £2000 (and the RMT will chuck it's toys out, and so the whole thing will be cancelled anyway).

 

[dk1]

For the benefit of a moderate number of cheap off peak local journeys that won't even cover the cost of running the train (if they pay, I don't do revenue on trains full of drunks unless I have security with me - there's another cost to factor in - gateline staff in most places have generally cleared off well before the end of service anyway so there's no revenue protection)?

The other point, which is repeated and then ignored as if it's only a minor irritation, is that in actual fact, it's not so be it, we don't have to, and aren't going to, work these shifts, so be it

I honestly do not care about servicing the needs of several distinct groups of passengers (I won't say customers, as it's by no means certain that they will pay).

1) Drunk sports fans (I won't say football fans as I'll be accused of sport racism)
2) Drunk clubbing types, particularly at 6am when no one wants to hear their rubbish, although anytime after about 1900 on a Saturday night seems to be no man's land
3) Cyclists
4) Thugs, yobs and other general criminal types who think they own the place and cause trouble. Particularly when drunk

As the main beneficiaries of these services are likely to fall into at least one of these categories, the chances of my agreeing to vary my contract to cater for them are slim to non-existent.

So to sum up -

It won't pay for itself without subsidy, it's obviously not a franchise requirement, so the train companies won't want to cover the cost

Generally the people who are required to make it happen, IE the staff, seem to have no interest in doing so

If you advertise it and it can't happen for whatever reason, NR adjusting a retaining wall or replanting a shrubbery, it then becomes an organisational nightmare to provide replacement transport

Please continue to debate if you will, but I can't see the point where the pros are going to so heavily overweigh the cons as to make it worthwhile. If you give me £1000, I may consider being the guard on a scheduled train arriving into a station on Christmas Day morning. However then you certainly won't make any money, particularly as market forces mean Mr Driver will probably pick up £2000 (and the RMT will chuck it's toys out, and so the whole thing will be cancelled anyway).

Summed up perfectly. Unless the TOC is Hornby then this is all a dream.

 

[Qwerty133]

I honestly do not care about servicing the needs of several distinct groups of passengers (I won't say customers, as it's by no means certain that they will pay).


3) Cyclists

My local TOC needs guards with such an attitude towards cyclists, instead of the current guards who let 12 on and see transporting 12 full sized bikes as more important than walking through the train being physically possible. (and before the mods start saying this hasn't happened I can give details of the service if you want to know )

 

[LowLevel]

I was being slightly facetious as this thread has run and run, mostly in circles, but they are certainly another group with an overinflated sense of entitlement and indeed propensity to become violent at the slightest hint of enforcing the rules to their disadvantage.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

There is a rapidly growing population which have no respect for Christmas.
Trains could possibly be running on Christmas day in the distant future.
Major engineering work - More emphasis is needed on improving capacity on/ creating diversionary routes, also for when a line is blocked.

 

[Batman]

Remember there's very little TOC's and complaining rail staff and their unions can do if the DfT decided to rewrite the minimum Christmas service requirements in franchise specifications. That could happen in the near future.

 

[DarloRich]

Remember there's very little TOC's and complaining rail staff and their unions can do if the DfT decided to rewrite the minimum Christmas service requirements in franchise specifications. That could happen in the near future.

but there is - such work would be non contracted hours. You would either need a completely new contract ( with union consultation and acceptance) or you rely in "overtime" to fill the vacant roster slots. That wont be cheap for such unsociable working times.

I assume the dft will look to compensate tocs for the additional staff costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Major engineering work - More emphasis is needed on improving capacity on/ creating diversionary routes, also for when a line is blocked.

Have you your cheque book to hand?

 

[Batman]

but there is - such work would be non contracted hours. You would either need a completely new contract ( with union consultation and acceptance) or you rely in "overtime" to fill the vacant roster slots. That wont be cheap for such unsociable working times.

Much in the same way that London Midland have had trouble with Sunday services in the not too distant past, and why they're reluctant to make major improvements to Sunday timetables for fear that not enough drivers will be willing to work overtime? They've long been talking about a 4tph Sunday services on the central section of the Cross City Line, but I think potential staff shortages has been the main reason why they've never gone ahead with it, even though it's a needed improvement IMHO.

 

[Flamingo]

For the benefit of a moderate number of cheap off peak local journeys that won't even cover the cost of running the train (if they pay, I don't do revenue on trains full of drunks unless I have security with me - there's another cost to factor in - gateline staff in most places have generally cleared off well before the end of service anyway so there's no revenue protection)?

The other point, which is repeated and then ignored as if it's only a minor irritation, is that in actual fact, it's not so be it, we don't have to, and aren't going to, work these shifts, so be it

I honestly do not care about servicing the needs of several distinct groups of passengers (I won't say customers, as it's by no means certain that they will pay).

1) Drunk sports fans (I won't say football fans as I'll be accused of sport racism)
2) Drunk clubbing types, particularly at 6am when no one wants to hear their rubbish, although anytime after about 1900 on a Saturday night seems to be no man's land
3) Cyclistsp
4) Thugs, yobs and other general criminal types who think they own the place and cause trouble. Particularly when drunk

As the main beneficiaries of these services are likely to fall into at least one of these categories, the chances of my agreeing to vary my contract to cater for them are slim to non-existent.

So to sum up -

It won't pay for itself without subsidy, it's obviously not a franchise requirement, so the train companies won't want to cover the cost

Generally the people who are required to make it happen, IE the staff, seem to have no interest in doing so

If you advertise it and it can't happen for whatever reason, NR adjusting a retaining wall or replanting a shrubbery, it then becomes an organisational nightmare to provide replacement transport

Please continue to debate if you will, but I can't see the point where the pros are going to so heavily overweigh the cons as to make it worthwhile. If you give me £1000, I may consider being the guard on a scheduled train arriving into a station on Christmas Day morning. However then you certainly won't make any money, particularly as market forces mean Mr Driver will probably pick up £2000 (and the RMT will chuck it's toys out, and so the whole thing will be cancelled anyway).

Perfect post.

 

[DarloRich]

Much in the same way that London Midland have had trouble with Sunday services in the not too distant past, and why they're reluctant to make major improvements to Sunday timetables for fear that not enough drivers will be willing to work overtime? They've long been talking about a 4tph Sunday services on the central section of the Cross City Line, but I think potential staff shortages has been the main reason why they've never gone ahead with it, even though it's a needed improvement IMHO.

Exactly - Until the TOC can agree a new contract with the unions there will be no compulsion for staff to work beyond their contracted hours.

 

[Flamingo]

Given that taxi's are able to charge a premium fare for Xmas Day, if trains were running, maybe the whole day should be peak fares only, no Advance, Railcard or Group discounts.

Then any passengers who wanted to use a train would have the opportunity, but they would be paying a realistic cost towards the expense incurred...

 

[DarloRich]

Given that taxi's are able to charge a premium fare for Xmas Day, if trains were running, maybe the whole day should be peak fares only, no Advance, Railcard or Group discounts.

Then any passengers who wanted to use a train would have the opportunity, but they would be paying a realistic cost towards the expense incurred...

My point exactly - who will pay for the increased costs of working?

 

[LBSCR Times]

but there is - such work would be non contracted hours. You would either need a completely new contract ( with union consultation and acceptance) or you rely in "overtime" to fill the vacant roster slots. That wont be cheap for such unsociable working times.

I assume the dft will look to compensate tocs for the additional staff costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Have you your cheque book to hand?

Sundays should be part of the normal working week, not overtime.
Why should those rail staff who have to work unsocial hours be expected to work extra hours.
However, when we tried to reduce our hours and incorporate the Sundays in to our basic week, it was Human Resources that objected (and the union wasn't interested).

 

[455driver]

Remember there's very little TOC's and complaining rail staff and their unions can do if the DfT decided to rewrite the minimum Christmas service requirements in franchise specifications. That could happen in the near future.

So where is the diversionary route when the engineering work is taking place immediately outside a major City Centre station such as Birmingham New Street or Manchester piccadilly?

That is the type of engineering work which takes place, not some nice simple renewals job out in the Countryside!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sundays should be part of the normal working week, not overtime.
Why should those rail staff who have to work unsocial hours be expected to work extra hours.
However, when we tried to reduce our hours and incorporate the Sundays in to our basic week, it was Human Resources that objected (and the union wasn't interested).

From a drivers point of view (the guards position would be similar)-
At the risk of repeating myself again! :roll:
It is cheaper for the TOCs to keep Sundays outside the working week and pay the staff overtime to work them as that overtime is not pensionable for a start. Those Sundays worked as overtime are in addition to the normal 35/37/40/42 hours that the staff are contracted to work, if Sundays were brought inside the working week then those hours would become part of the normal 35/37/40/42 hours that the staff work meaning that those staff booked to work that Sunday would have a different day off that week. The TOC would then need to employ more staff to work that uncovered day (say one extra driver for each batch of 4 Sundays brought inside, if there are 20 Sunday shifts at each depot that would mean 5 extra drivers need to be employed at each depot) meaning the wage bill would be roughly the same (just that all staff wouldnt be getting any overtime now) but the pension contributions etc would be extra costs, those extra staff would probably require some extra managers to keep all the paperwork in order/ carry out ride assessments etc meaning more costs, and so on and so on.

Funnily enough ASLEF want Sundays inside as it means there would need to be more staff and so more ASLEF members paying their subs, its management that dont want it because of the extra costs involved.

 

[Muzer]

For the benefit of a moderate number of cheap off peak local journeys that won't even cover the cost of running the train (if they pay, I don't do revenue on trains full of drunks unless I have security with me - there's another cost to factor in - gateline staff in most places have generally cleared off well before the end of service anyway so there's no revenue protection)?

The other point, which is repeated and then ignored as if it's only a minor irritation, is that in actual fact, it's not so be it, we don't have to, and aren't going to, work these shifts, so be it

I honestly do not care about servicing the needs of several distinct groups of passengers (I won't say customers, as it's by no means certain that they will pay).

1) Drunk sports fans (I won't say football fans as I'll be accused of sport racism)
2) Drunk clubbing types, particularly at 6am when no one wants to hear their rubbish, although anytime after about 1900 on a Saturday night seems to be no man's land
3) Cyclists
4) Thugs, yobs and other general criminal types who think they own the place and cause trouble. Particularly when drunk

As the main beneficiaries of these services are likely to fall into at least one of these categories, the chances of my agreeing to vary my contract to cater for them are slim to non-existent.

So to sum up -

It won't pay for itself without subsidy, it's obviously not a franchise requirement, so the train companies won't want to cover the cost

Generally the people who are required to make it happen, IE the staff, seem to have no interest in doing so

If you advertise it and it can't happen for whatever reason, NR adjusting a retaining wall or replanting a shrubbery, it then becomes an organisational nightmare to provide replacement transport

Please continue to debate if you will, but I can't see the point where the pros are going to so heavily overweigh the cons as to make it worthwhile. If you give me £1000, I may consider being the guard on a scheduled train arriving into a station on Christmas Day morning. However then you certainly won't make any money, particularly as market forces mean Mr Driver will probably pick up £2000 (and the RMT will chuck it's toys out, and so the whole thing will be cancelled anyway).

I'm not one myself, but I don't quite see why cyclists should be lumped in with those people. I know a few cyclists who adhere to the rules and don't kick up a fuss if they board a busy train where there's no room for their bike. Though I admit they might be in the minority.

Certainly if you're including cyclists, you should include people with pushchairs as well

 

[LowLevel]

I can assure you I've come across far more that become rude, aggressive and even violent if it's even intimated that they might not be able to take their bike on a train. Even for a local journey that might take them less than an hour to cycle.

Rarely is there even a neutral reaction.

Pushchairs you can at least make people fold - non folding bikes just hang around in the way.

 

[Batman]

Exactly - Until the TOC can agree a new contract with the unions there will be no compulsion for staff to work beyond their contracted hours.

But London Midland have already made improvements to Sunday services. There's now an hourly service between Birmingham and Worcester on Sundays compared to a pathetic 5 trains a day (and non calling at Bromsgrove before 3pm), before December 2012.

LM must have been reasonable sure that drivers would be available for these extra services before they made the timetable changes. It would have attracted a lot of negative publicity if these services were having to be cancelled because of staff shortages. And negative publicity is something LM could certainly be doing without at the moment.

If the DfT/TOC's can find a way of getting Sunday working into drivers contracted hours then that would provide a lot a reassurance to the public that trains are actually going to run. And I guess that will satisfy the DfT as well.