How many Scotrail 158s haven't been refurbished?

[northwichcat]

I notice there a few stories circulating which say the Campaign for Borders Rail (CBR) has written to Scotrail franchise bidders asking for them to ensure that the 158s cascaded to the Borders Railway get a high standard of refurbishment.

How come the said units haven't already been refurbished? Is it due to a number of 158s having been subleased from Northern until recently?

 

[Emyr]

How come the said units haven't already been refurbished? Is it due to a number of 158s having been subleased from Northern until recently?

Scared they might have found a loophole for improving Northern's fleet

 

[northwichcat]

Scared they might have found a loophole for improving Northern's fleet

If Scotrail hadn't taken the 158s then Northern wouldn't have needed to sublease the 180s (unless FGW took even more 142s as a result of Northern having more stock.)

 

[158722]

Inverness based 158701-725 were refurbished during 2007/08, a 9 million pound project, funded by Transport Scotland. 158726-736/738-741 received C6X exams mainly during 2009/10, but retained existing seating. The 8 imports had fairly minor work and repaints during 2011.

 

[90019]

158726-736/738-741 received C6X exams mainly during 2009/10, but retained existing seating. The 8 imports had fairly minor work and repaints during 2011.

Bloody awful things. I used to hate travelling on them when I was in Stirling.
I'd usually sit on the luggage rack because it was more comfortable than those seats.

 

[WillPS]

Does that mean there are still ScotRail 158s chugging around with Central Trains' moquette?

 

[sd0733]

Yes 158782 when I was on it the other week has mostly Central interior.

 

[Mark62]

Scrap them all. I lived in Scotland for 10 years and traveled frequently on comfortable mark3 coaches pulled by a 47 between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Then they were replaced by the 158 horrors. Sames goes for most lines where mark2 coaches and locomotives were replaced by 158s. With their tiny seats and lack of capacity once pleasurable journeys became a nightmare.
We gave up using the train up there. The noise and vibration from the underfloor engines on the 158 was unbearable on a long journey. It was sometimes impossible to view the magnificent scenery because of airline seat alignments. And as a man who is 6ft 4ins i simply could not get into the airline seats because of the lack of legspace.
So scrap these awful units that arent even fit for short hauls. These units and all of the others that have replaced locomotives and carriages or HST's. I included the truly dreadful cross country voyagers and merdians run by EMT. We have gone so far backwards, when a four coach train can run from Penzance to Dundee without any hot food or leg space. If I can't get a good deal in first class, then I won't travel. It is only the first class that are not cattle cars.We must be the only country in the world that allows trains to run like these. The train operators get richer from handouts from the government(the people) and we travel in conditions that date back over from over 150 years ago
I nobody says a thing about it. In the south east there are 12 coach trains running every few minutes to places like Brighton for 50 mile journeys and yet they put on four coaches for over 500 miles and the operator gets away with it. And gets richer in the process. Virgin trains replaced eight HST's with four coach cattle trains and had the cheek to tell us that they had doubled the service. This may be so. But they failed to tell us that the halved the length of the trains. I would rather sit on the floor in the vestibules between coached than attempt to squeeze into a second class airline seat. I have done that between Sheffield and Derby.It comfier. Nice. Gosh don't we have a rail network to be proud of.

 

[scotraildriver]

158867-871 have Alphaline interiors with Scotrail seat covers. 786/789 have south west trains interiors with Northern Rail seat covers. 782 is almost original 158. They are all a mess!

 

[SkinnyDave]

Scrap them all. I lived in Scotland for 10 years and traveled frequently on comfortable mark3 coaches pulled by a 47 between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Then they were replaced by the 158 horrors. Sames goes for most lines where mark2 coaches and locomotives were replaced by 158s. With their tiny seats and lack of capacity once pleasurable journeys became a nightmare.
We gave up using the train up there. The noise and vibration from the underfloor engines on the 158 was unbearable on a long journey. It was sometimes impossible to view the magnificent scenery because of airline seat alignments. And as a man who is 6ft 4ins i simply could not get into the airline seats because of the lack of legspace.
So scrap these awful units that arent even fit for short hauls. These units and all of the others that have replaced locomotives and carriages or HST's. I included the truly dreadful cross country voyagers and merdians run by EMT. We have gone so far backwards, when a four coach train can run from Penzance to Dundee without any hot food or leg space. If I can't get a good deal in first class, then I won't travel. It is only the first class that are not cattle cars.We must be the only country in the world that allows trains to run like these. The train operators get richer from handouts from the government(the people) and we travel in conditions that date back over from over 150 years ago
I nobody says a thing about it. In the south east there are 12 coach trains running every few minutes to places like Brighton for 50 mile journeys and yet they put on four coaches for over 500 miles and the operator gets away with it. And gets richer in the process. Virgin trains replaced eight HST's with four coach cattle trains and had the cheek to tell us that they had doubled the service. This may be so. But they failed to tell us that the halved the length of the trains. I would rather sit on the floor in the vestibules between coached than attempt to squeeze into a second class airline seat. I have done that between Sheffield and Derby.It comfier. Nice. Gosh don't we have a rail network to be proud of.

And breathe

 

[RobShipway]

One question to ask to what is being asked here is, what happens if Scotland gets its own government to the class 158's as suspect that they will want to replace these trains with something owned by Scottish leasing company rather than an English leasing company?

 

[kermit]

Scrap them all. I lived in Scotland for 10 years and traveled frequently on comfortable mark3 coaches pulled by a 47 between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Then they were replaced by the 158 horrors. Sames goes for most lines where mark2 coaches and locomotives were replaced by 158s. With their tiny seats and lack of capacity once pleasurable journeys became a nightmare.
We gave up using the train up there. The noise and vibration from the underfloor engines on the 158 was unbearable on a long journey. It was sometimes impossible to view the magnificent scenery because of airline seat alignments. And as a man who is 6ft 4ins i simply could not get into the airline seats because of the lack of legspace.
So scrap these awful units that arent even fit for short hauls. These units and all of the others that have replaced locomotives and carriages or HST's. I included the truly dreadful cross country voyagers and merdians run by EMT. We have gone so far backwards, when a four coach train can run from Penzance to Dundee without any hot food or leg space. If I can't get a good deal in first class, then I won't travel. It is only the first class that are not cattle cars.We must be the only country in the world that allows trains to run like these. The train operators get richer from handouts from the government(the people) and we travel in conditions that date back over from over 150 years ago
I nobody says a thing about it. In the south east there are 12 coach trains running every few minutes to places like Brighton for 50 mile journeys and yet they put on four coaches for over 500 miles and the operator gets away with it. And gets richer in the process. Virgin trains replaced eight HST's with four coach cattle trains and had the cheek to tell us that they had doubled the service. This may be so. But they failed to tell us that the halved the length of the trains. I would rather sit on the floor in the vestibules between coached than attempt to squeeze into a second class airline seat. I have done that between Sheffield and Derby.It comfier. Nice. Gosh don't we have a rail network to be proud of.

My feelings exactly. Damn right!

 

[170401]

One question to ask to what is being asked here is, what happens if Scotland gets its own government to the class 158's as suspect that they will want to replace these trains with something owned by Scottish leasing company rather than an English leasing company?

Why?

There are no Scottish leasing companies, If Scotland goes its own way then I would assume market forces will dictate who runs whatever in Scotland until such times if/when the government decide to renationalise. Of course their is absolutely nothing to say they will or won't as no one really knows how politics will turn if Scotland goes its own way.

As has been said already Scotland has invested heavily in much of its 158 fleet and has already previously blocked their transfer south. Given the alternatives I think they will be around for many many years to come.

 

[RobShipway]

Why?

There are no Scottish leasing companies, If Scotland goes its own way then I would assume market forces will dictate who runs whatever in Scotland until such times if/when the government decide to renationalise. Of course their is absolutely nothing to say they will or won't as no one really knows how politics will turn if Scotland goes its own way.

As has been said already Scotland has invested heavily in much of its 158 fleet and has already previously blocked their transfer south. Given the alternatives I think they will be around for many many years to come.

The question came from something that I had read on the Scottish Devolution, that even though they would accept trains travelling into Scotland from the likes of London, Manchester etc.... that the then new Scottish government would want to do a away with the fact of leasing trains for services internally within and take ownership of the trains instead as they will do with Scotrail if things go their way in September.

 

[170401]

The question came from something that I had read on the Scottish Devolution, that even though they would accept trains travelling into Scotland from the likes of London, Manchester etc.... that the then new Scottish government would want to do a away with the fact of leasing trains for services internally within and take ownership of the trains instead as they will do with Scotrail if things go their way in September.

Like most guff surrounding a future independent Scotland this is only a point of view of 1 or 2 sides of the political spectrum, previous administrations did not show much interest in nationalising our railways and their Is nothing to prevent a future government pursuing a different agenda. The absolute basic truth is no one knows what will happen in a separate Scotland post 2016.

That aside if a separate Scotland did take ownership of its own stock then it would either have to purchase the existing stock form the ROSCOs or purchase new stock off their own back. The question then basically comes down to what we will be able to afford, which varies wildly depending on who you listen too.

 

[northwichcat]

That aside if a separate Scotland did take ownership of its own stock then it would either have to purchase the existing stock form the ROSCOs or purchase new stock off their own back. The question then basically comes down to what we will be able to afford, which varies wildly depending on who you listen too.

And why would Porterbrook want to sell the Scotrail 170s when there would be plenty of other operators all wanting to lease them?

I could see Angel Trains agreeing to sell the 142s for a low value in the next few years

 

[170401]

And why would Porterbrook want to sell the Scotrail 170s when there would be plenty of other operators all wanting to lease them?

My point exactly! The current Scottish administration probably thinks they will be able to just swan in and take what they like but the truth, as with many other things, is somewhat different. Porterbrook will do whatever is most financially beneficial to them and I would imagine their would be a lot of value in a large fleet of regional mid life DMUs at the moment, especially given recent mutterings about the difficulty of procuring new underfloor engine DMU stock for the UK.

Even the much derided class 158s will still hold a high value to operators in England and Wales. I can think of many areas where they'd be appreciated!

 

[northwichcat]

Porterbrook will do whatever is most financially beneficial to them and I would imagine their would be a lot of value in a large fleet of regional mid life DMUs at the moment, especially given recent mutterings about the difficulty of procuring new underfloor engine DMU stock for the UK.

With an order for new commuter DMUs having a poor business case Network Rail in one of their RUS' have identified local lines unlikely to be electrified where regional stock (like the 170s) could be suitability cascaded down to. Some of them are lines which currently see Northern Rail Pacers and 150s e.g. Manchester-Sheffield stoppers and Manchester-Altrincham-Chester services.

 

[158722]

With an order for new commuter DMUs having a poor business case Network Rail in one of their RUS' have identified local lines unlikely to be electrified where regional stock (like the 170s) could be suitability cascaded down to. Some of them are lines which currently see Northern Rail Pacers and 150s e.g. Manchester-Sheffield stoppers and Manchester-Altrincham-Chester services.

Should the Scottish government (independent or not...) want to bring ownership of trains used on the ScotRail franchise 'in-house' (as in owned in Scotland), then the logical way would probably be start doing this when new stock is ordered, such as starting with the EMUs for the E&G, etc. The new ScotLeaseCo buys the new stock and TFS simply lets the lease expire on the spare existing DMUs. The displaced Porterbrook or Angel 156s, 158s or 170s will happily find new homes down south.

Still can't see it happening, but that said, political dogma is always dangerous...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I could see Angel Trains agreeing to sell the 142s for a low value in the next few years

Can you hazard a guess which transport-based organisation might express an interest in purchasing these ?

 

[northwichcat]

Can you hazard a guess which transport-based organisation might express an interest in purchasing these ?

Maybe Northern and ATW would be given first refusal rights if Angel want to off-load them? Refusal being the operative word.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Still can't see it happening, but that said, political dogma is always dangerous...

Well at the moment an independent Scotland looks as likely as a Conservative majority looked before the last general election. Opinion polls show there's more support for Scotland becoming independent in England than in Scotland.

If Alex Salmond doesn't get his way in the referendum I can see him going to David Cameron and reminding him that he said the Scottish parliament could have more power without becoming an independent country.