Headcode website proposal

[heart-of-wessex]

Hello all,

Now I am aware of headcodes.info website, which is useful in many ways, however I've been thinking of maybe setting up something similar but for the purpose of running numbers only, a bit like a gen site in a way.

Obviously headcodes.info has all the timings etc, but today for example, I wanted a rough idea on what works the 0607 Banbury - Paddington. It didn't seem easy to find it and the only way I could find was to go to traction history and type every 165/166 number then search for Banbury. You have to do each number separately I was lucky really that 165102 worked it and only found out after two searches (165101 and then 102). If only 165133 was recorded it would have taken longer.
Besides that it relies on you having a rough idea on the traction used too.

What I'm thinking of is a pure database site done by submission of sightings only, I.E the headcode will only be on there if a unit/loco number is entered, or at least the type of unit seen (like 455xxx + 455xxx, an 8 car 455 seen but no number seen as was on passing train or something)

This sort of site would be useful to me as not only can I put my own sightings up too, but it may help me and others who would like to know what sort of unit/loco works what, and can come in handy for simulations like RailWorks and SimSig.

I had a website once but a free one, I'd expect something like this may require hosting costs but I'd have to find out how to make a website where people can submit stuff and come up with a layout.

Would this be something you guys might like to see?

 

[Alistair G.]

Hello all,

Now I am aware of headcodes.info website, which is useful in many ways, however I've been thinking of maybe setting up something similar but for the purpose of running numbers only, a bit like a gen site in a way.

Obviously headcodes.info has all the timings etc, but today for example, I wanted a rough idea on what works the 0607 Banbury - Paddington. It didn't seem easy to find it and the only way I could find was to go to traction history and type every 165/166 number then search for Banbury. You have to do each number separately I was lucky really that 165102 worked it and only found out after two searches (165101 and then 102). If only 165133 was recorded it would have taken longer.
Besides that it relies on you having a rough idea on the traction used too.

What I'm thinking of is a pure database site done by submission of sightings only, I.E the headcode will only be on there if a unit/loco number is entered, or at least the type of unit seen (like 455xxx + 455xxx, an 8 car 455 seen but no number seen as was on passing train or something)

This sort of site would be useful to me as not only can I put my own sightings up too, but it may help me and others who would like to know what sort of unit/loco works what, and can come in handy for simulations like RailWorks and SimSig.

I had a website once but a free one, I'd expect something like this may require hosting costs but I'd have to find out how to make a website where people can submit stuff and come up with a layout.

Would this be something you guys might like to see?

What we need is network rail to release access to Gemini. They are talking about releasing more data though.... Hope this is one of the items for discussion.

As for the proposed website, I'm always pleased to hear that people are looking at ways to increase the way people can access information. However, I believe that most people who would look at something like that would already know what type of unit to expect on which line and without very regular updates of what is where I think some people would be quick to give up on it.

That said, don't let me put you off... If websites twitter can take off with people randomly posting, then why not enthusiasts doing similar "tweets" for units

 

[Techniquest]

Locoscene did or does similar to the proposal I believe,although I've not been on that in years. James, feel free to PM me to discuss it more thoroughly as I do believe it would be useful.

You only need to look at how well used the TOPS Request Thread is to see how useful something like James proposal would be. In the interim, we've had the 'Trains you've seen working' thread since late October 2013 and it has proved to be less popular than I hoped but it is still well used. I've tried to make it more populated by linking to it in my signature and talking about it in various threads. I'd say we have only 5 people regularly posting on it, myself included, which really isn't enough. I also try to post observations 'live' during a trip to give people the best chance of hunting down locos/units but obviously this isn't all that easy when on a busy day!

James' idea could, by the looks of it, be very well received. Obviously it needs people regularly posting (I post my observations on average once a week, depending if I'm on the rails that week) but let's see what others think.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

What we need is network rail to release access to Gemini. They are talking about releasing more data though.... Hope this is one of the items for discussion.

As for the proposed website, I'm always pleased to hear that people are looking at ways to increase the way people can access information. However, I believe that most people who would look at something like that would already know what type of unit to expect on which line and without very regular updates of what is where I think some people would be quick to give up on it.

That said, don't let me put you off... If websites twitter can take off with people randomly posting, then why not enthusiasts doing similar "tweets" for units

Depends on the TOC of course, writing a timetable for the program SimSig and wanting to put the traction on a Paignton - Exmouth, what could it be? Might be timed for a 143 but could turn out at 80% of the time it's a 150/1 so then I would use a 150/1.

Obviously things for HEX and Heathrow Connect aren't really needed, if you didn't know the area you could look it up online to see that they are 332's and 360's.

Then again maybe a sort of enthusiast sight might be an idea, a section for headcode gen for users to submit, a sort of TOC section listing all their traction types on their books (so it's all in one place) and maybe a guide to spotting/bashing for new people. Their doesn't seem to be a place for that, it took me a while to discover books, RailMiles, what bashing is etc.

I'm unsure about the 'tweets' thing, depends how easy it is to find things. For example, I google'd something once, some freight that was in the South West or something, I had the headcode but wanted to know what it was. It found something that may have been of use on one of the South West rail photo Facebook groups. Problem is when you click on the link, it sends you to the very top of the group, meaning if the post was a 3 months ago, it would take forever to find, bearing in mind this is a photo group so each post has a photo to scroll past, and CTRL+F won't find it, as it only shows a handful of posts, so you have to keep scrolling to get another handful.

It is really annoying as useful gen just gets lost, nothing against the groups on Facebook, it's just the format that makes it hard to find stuff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What we need is network rail to release access to Gemini. They are talking about releasing more data though.... Hope this is one of the items for discussion.

I keep hearing people say it's sensitive info and all that...really? Is it for terrorist attack reasons or something?

Not being funny, but what would a terrorist know about 165109 working the Oxford - Paddington? Even graffiti artist's probably wouldn't know what 158951 on 1F06 is, to both these types, a train is a train and won't need to know where the train is or what it is, they'd just do it.

 

[samogers]

I think it's a great idea

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Locoscene did or does similar to the proposal I believe,although I've not been on that in years. James, feel free to PM me to discuss it more thoroughly as I do believe it would be useful.

I can punch in unit numbers there, but it only gives locations they were seen. Handy maybe for wondering where 166's are maybe, but there's no headcode info that I can see, so if I wondered what was on 2P20 from Banbury, I'd have no idea.

Regular postings would be handy especially on the same headcodes as, of course, it would give an idea if sometimes a different unit is used. But it would be useful if it was spread out a bit too, any sightings in the peak hours could be useful as some different combinations start appearing with longer lengths.

 

[Techniquest]

I can punch in unit numbers there, but it only gives locations they were seen. Handy maybe for wondering where 166's are maybe, but there's no headcode info that I can see, so if I wondered what was on 2P20 from Banbury, I'd have no idea.

Regular postings would be handy especially on the same headcodes as, of course, it would give an idea if sometimes a different unit is used. But it would be useful if it was spread out a bit too, any sightings in the peak hours could be useful as some different combinations start appearing with longer lengths.

Fair point regarding Locoscene. I must admit to being curious as to why you wanted to know what was working the 0607 Banbury to London Paddington, definitely not your 'home turf' or a realistic regular move (unless you've relocated!) so I'm puzzled. Probably something really obvious that I'm missing!

I'm also really curious as to why a lot of people are obsessed with headcodes. I can't see what the big fuss is about quite honestly, indeed I rarely note them at all and wouldn't be able to tell you what my most regular moves (0849 HFD-BHM and 1919 BHM-HFD) are regarding headcodes!

Would you be kind enough to give an example of exactly what you're after? My usual style for noting observations on here is as follows:

170517+153356 0659 Birmingham New Street-Hereford, 0849 Hereford-Birmingham New Street

On my phone the note files use 3-letter codes wherever possible to save room in the files. However an example detailing precisely what you'd be looking for from us lot would make it easier to work out the viability of your idea and be able to potentially contribute in the desired fashion.

However I should re-iterate one of my points from earlier, that being that after almost 6 months to the day since I started the 'Trains you've seen working' thread, it's not receiving a high contribution rate. I regularly post stuff in the Midlands as it's my 'home turf' and most regularly visited area, DanTrainMan185 regularly posts from his area, Cardiff/Bristol. AndrewR232 regularly posts from Glasgow, fishquinn makes observations on t'other side of the Midlands, usually Leamington Spa. 03179 regularly posts links to his observations on his blog, but it's worth pointing out that most of the country do not get regular observations posted. The Thames Valley, Kent, the South West, Anglia, the North East, the North West and the vast majority of Wales do not regularly get noted on the thread. Whether all the gen gets posted elsewhere on t'internet I don't know, but I only mention all this because you may have the same difficulty in getting people to regularly contribute too.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Fair point regarding Locoscene. I must admit to being curious as to why you wanted to know what was working the 0607 Banbury to London Paddington, definitely not your 'home turf' or a realistic regular move (unless you've relocated!) so I'm puzzled. Probably something really obvious that I'm missing!

RailWorks mate . I am doing a scenario for RailWorks on the GWML route, and chose the 0607 for a long drive from Oxford, was unsure if it's just a 3 car set or a pair of units. As I day I did eventually find it was a 165 and a 166, so at least a 5 or 6 car set would be on it.

The reason for the headcode is that for the above reason is easier to find. Just CTRL+F and then 2P20 and it found it in the list. I could search by departure time but depends how it's written in the list in the first place, is it 0607, 06:07, 06.07 etc? Just typing 2P20 was easier.

And there were a couple of people on the SimSig forum who were looking for a website where you could see what train worked on what so that it made it easier writing timetables (As you may know, SimSig is dependent on headcodes so finding what you want by headcode is easier)

Obviously advertising the site to UKTS and SimSig will probably generate some interest too as it would be useful to some on their.

 

[Minilad]

The problem with releasing Gemini is that it also contains staff details. I wouldn't be very happy if my location or my whereabouts for the whole day could be seen by any Tom Dick or Harry. And I am sure most train crew wouldn't either

 

[Techniquest]

Fair enough James, makes sense

Aye you're right on the variety of ways people post the times.I stick to how it's shown in the timetable, that is no colon,full stops or spaces. Just seems like common sense to me, although as time is nomally reported with a colon in the rest of the world then that also makes sense.

If those on SimSig, UKTS etc would find it useful then said people also need to contribute to the project. Might seem like mundane stuff that doesn't need reporting but to others it could be quite useful so a massive effort from everyone would make it really useful.

In the interim James, feel free to post your observations to the 'Trains you've seen working' to help make it a more thorough log of happenings in the country, hint hint

 

[DarloRich]

What we need is network rail to release access to Gemini. They are talking about releasing more data though.... Hope this is one of the items for discussion.

Why? There is senstive data accessible via that system.

 

[Emyr]

Why? There is senstive data accessible via that system.

Doesn't mean all the data would be accessible.

 

[DarloRich]

still no actual reason why - What does knowing a head code actually offer to anyone in the real world?

 

[ValleyLines142]

DanTrainMan185 regularly posts from his area, Cardiff/Bristol.

Hiyaaaaaaaa.

I think this proposal is great.

The reason I have said TOPS request should be made public is so that if a service is strengthened, people can aim for that. For example, if the 0942 Hereford to Manchester is 150235, and the 1042 is 150213+150208, then I'd aim for the 1042 as it has more carriages.

As for staff details on Gemini, just simply do not process this!

A site must be available for just unit details.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Once I've moved and settled in I'll start looking around on how to create such a site. I'll be on Virgin again so should have some hosting space.

Would a feed from TRUST be any good, any sensitive info like staff or phone number details on there?

 

[yorkie]

still no actual reason why - What does knowing a head code actually offer to anyone in the real world?

We can already find out headcodes. The proposal is actually to identify rolling stock allocations.

We've already had threads about this, and some examples of why it could be useful to identify a train formation can be found in this post by DaveNewcastle for example.

 

[ValleyLines142]

still no actual reason why - What does knowing a head code actually offer to anyone in the real world?

Headcodes don't mean anything to the general public. It's knowing unit allocations.

Some people for example may be on a mission to clear classes. Techniquest for example needs 150235. If he had TOPS access, then he could find it!

 

[telstarbox]

I think the potential market for allocations data is very small compared to the potential uses (including commercial uses) of general live-running data as used by RealTimeTrains et al.

 

[DarloRich]

Headcodes don't mean anything to the general public. It's knowing unit allocations.

Some people for example may be on a mission to clear classes. Techniquest for example needs 150235. If he had TOPS access, then he could find it!

Unit allocations mean nothing tho the normal passenger either!!!!!

I am afraid my views on this subject are never going to chime with the majority on here. I am trying to chose my words very carefully as i have no desire to offend and will say only that I believe such an application would have extremely limited interest to anyone in the real world.

Finally i do not believe that an operational system such as TOPS should be made available merely to allow people to clear classes or track a certain unit! Show me a real world application for this data that genuinely helps the majority of passengers and I will support it. Until then, i am out.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Actual access to the systems as railway staff see them would never be granted. What would actually happen is that some data from the system would be exposed with its own interface, in the same way that TRUST's data is exposed in the form of the feed that notifies apps when trains pass certain timing points.

Network Rail could easily expose a feed that showed which units/locos/coaches a train was formed of, and which direction it pointed in. Staff contact details would never be published.

This would be useful for many reasons other than clearing classes. TRUST data has allowed websites and mobile phone apps to predict when trains will arrive. RealTimeTrains goes one better and recalculates this from track circuit data to be more precise than, if not as accurate as, TRUST. Data about train formations would allow websites / mobile phone apps to show short formed trains (perhaps beeping at you if you stand in a part of the platform where there would normally be a door, but today isn't), where on the platform to wait (quite helpful when waiting for a 4-car train on a 12-car platform), allow people to check the location of the wheelchair spaces, which end First Class will be at, etc, etc. Some of the possible innovations won't have been thought of yet.

Passengers pay for this data through taxes and fares and should be allowed to get the maximum benefit from it where there is no reason not to allow this. Thankfully Network Rail is already taking this attitude rather than using terrorism or "need to know" as an excuse to do nothing.

 

[DarloRich]

How does knowing the kind of information suggested help “the man on the Clapham omnibus”? I see quite easily how it helps a rail enthusiast (and why that would be of interest!) but not the average passenger. I think many on this site forget that the average passenger is the key, not the rail enthusiast community.

I think Real Time Trains is a fantastic use of open data that aids passengers every day. It has practical real world applications that offer a better service to the passenger than national rail or any TOC website. It is easy to use and clever in the collection, application and presentation of data. I point my friends in the direction of this web site as the best form of running time based data available but would they be in any way interested in knowing what type of train was going to turn up? I doubt it.

 

[Emyr]

Use case 1:

"I left an object on the train. If it's calling at my station, I could receive it there"

Corollary:

"I want to deliver explosives to another location. Which vehicle calls at most stations before my target, such that I am harder to identify as the perpetrator?"

 

[A-driver]

Use case 1:

"I left an object on the train. If it's calling at my station, I could receive it there"

Except that chances are that it will have been removed from the train by that time-if you left it on the train then the train will have turned around and most probably cleaned by the time it gets back to your station, or another passenger will have picked it up and handed it in.

I'm not against this info being released but once again can't see any real benifit apart from enthusiasts wanting to track down units.

 

[FQ]

That is a really good idea. What needs to happen is Network Rail need to release a live train tracker and TRUST on an app so people know what stuff is on. They could charge a little money for it such as a pound for the app.

 

[PermitToTravel]

How does knowing the kind of information suggested help “the man on the Clapham omnibus”? I see quite easily how it helps a rail enthusiast (and why that would be of interest!) but not the average passenger. I think many on this site forget that the average passenger is the key, not the rail enthusiast community.

I think Real Time Trains is a fantastic use of open data that aids passengers every day. It has practical real world applications that offer a better service to the passenger than national rail or any TOC website. It is easy to use and clever in the collection, application and presentation of data. I point my friends in the direction of this web site as the best form of running time based data available but would they be in any way interested in knowing what type of train was going to turn up? I doubt it.

Are none of the already given examples good enough for you?

Use case 1:

"I left an object on the train. If it's calling at my station, I could receive it there"

Corollary:

"I want to deliver explosives to another location. Which vehicle calls at most stations before my target, such that I am harder to identify as the perpetrator?"

That can be done with a timetable. The already available timetable data allows a vehicle's entire diagram to be calculated.

 

[03_179]

Then again maybe a sort of enthusiast sight might be an idea, a section for headcode gen for users to submit, a sort of TOC section listing all their traction types on their books (so it's all in one place) and maybe a guide to spotting/bashing for new people. Their doesn't seem to be a place for that, it took me a while to discover books, RailMiles, what bashing is etc.

This would be a good idea.

THings to include that may help a newbie (or like me someone been out of the loops for years) could be:

• Class info.
• Toc Info
• Where to regually see classes i,e, Class 70
• Good locations (especially safe) to spot
• Links to things like the WTT or Timetables.
• Latest movements i.e. 70001 from TO to DN (relax it was an example)
• A list of regually seem headcodes i.e. 1S20 14: 00 London Kings Cross to Aberdeen [Usually Cl.43 HST]

 

[A-driver]

Are none of the already given examples good enough for you?



That can be done with a timetable. The already available timetable data allows a vehicle's entire diagram to be calculated.

The only examples so far given are to help enthusiasts, no one has given any examples which would help actual passengers have they?

A passenger timetable doesn't show a vehicles diagram does it? It dosnt tell you which units turn around to form which services out etc does it?

 

[PermitToTravel]

The only examples so far given are to help enthusiasts, no one has given any examples which would help actual passengers have they?

Yes they have, e.g. locations of bike spaces, wheelchair spaces, etc.

A passenger timetable doesn't show a vehicles diagram does it? It dosnt tell you which units turn around to form which services out etc does it?

The timetable data published for software developers shows this. Additionally, WTTs are now available on the Network Rail website.

 

[A-driver]

Yes they have, e.g. locations of bike spaces, wheelchair spaces, etc.



The timetable data published for software developers shows this. Additionally, WTTs are now available on the Network Rail website.

Locations of bike and wheelchair spaces only mean anything to people who know the layout of each type if train. Seeing the the unit is formed of "65003&70965&70966&65004" means nothing of where bikes or wheelchairs can be placed unless you know the layout of the units. So it would still only be of any benefit to a tiny group of people and wouldn't be something worth spending any time or money on releasing data for.

I agree that more could be done to help with locating bike and wheelchair accommodation but I can't see this being the way forward as it relies on too much knowledge and an internet connection...surely systems like the new TL trains will use are better to inform those with bikes where to go.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Locations of bike and wheelchair spaces only mean anything to people who know the layout of each type if train. Seeing the the unit is formed of "65003&70965&70966&65004" means nothing of where bikes or wheelchairs can be placed unless you know the layout of the units. So it would still only be of any benefit to a tiny group of people and wouldn't be something worth spending any time or money on releasing data for.

I agree that more could be done to help with locating bike and wheelchair accommodation but I can't see this being the way forward as it relies on too much knowledge and an internet connection...surely systems like the new TL trains will use are better to inform those with bikes where to go.

No, Network Rail would release the data like "65003&70965&70966&65004". The app users would have could show them in any number of ways, for example a map of the platform with their position shown as a blue dot, and an arrow where the correct door on the train should be.

The current TRUST/TD/signalling data is just unintelligible numbers, but apps turn it into useful predictions.