Euston rebuild blockade - possible diversions?

[59CosG95]

So do you think there'd be room at Cricklewood to store the sleeper rakes? Presumably all the depot roads are electrifed there.

 

[IanXC]

Platform heights would be a bit of a problem for putting the Sleepers in St Pancras International platforms.

 

[59CosG95]

What about Waterloo?

 

[carriageline]

So do you think there'd be room at Cricklewood to store the sleeper rakes? Presumably all the depot roads are electrifed there.

I imagine there 'may' be a problem with the locos, as they belong to DBS and they maintain them at Wembley freight yard, not Alstoms depot.

Has cricklewood got facilities to do the loos? (Can't remember if they are retention or not, of that even matters!!)

 

[edwin_m]

So do you think there'd be room at Cricklewood to store the sleeper rakes? Presumably all the depot roads are electrifed there.

If it came in on via WCML connection surely it could just go back the same way and continue to be serviced at Wembley?

Platform heights would be wrong but with the sleeper standing for a while and only having modest numbers of passengers I'm sure some solution involving portable ramps could be devised.

 

[infobleep]

Another solution, which to be fair I would approve of, is to terminate or start all sleeper services from Waterford Junction. They could do the same with the Tring services. Then they could tell all passengers to use London Overground services.

After all they already do that during disruption for the Tring trains at least and this is a form of disruption. I wouldn't approve but it would cut station train numbers. Off peak it's 2 Tring trains out of Euston an hour, 3 between 8 and 9am. Not sure about evening peak. Into Euston it's probably more in the morning peaks and 2 off peak and evening peak. Would that remove enough trains? If not perhaps they can terminate some others at Watford Junction.

It takes a while on the Overground train but it does run every 20 minutes during the day. So there would be plenty of opportunities to board one. If it leads to overcrowding. Well just ignore the problem as it's only for the shortish term in the long run.

After all they ignored overcrowding issues on platform 16 at Clapham Junction when Overground trains to Stratford were diverted to platform 17. In that case they only dealt with the problem on platform 17 and not the knock on problem to platform 16, where Southern trains run to Milton Keynes. So although I might not approve, there are previous examples where overcrowding was ignored.

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[edwin_m]

I think you mean Watford?

The difficulty with the sleeper is that it really has to sit at its terminus for a couple of hours to give the passengers a more civilized time to join and leave. That wouldn't be possible in a through station like Watford - even with everything terminating there would only be four platforms available.

 

[causton]

Crazy idea: Put each portion (or part of, if it won't fit the whole) into a bay platform at Watford. Send each portion at a time down to Wembley to couple up to make the full train, then send north. Could even build a temporary short platform at the sidings in Wembley to allow the train (or a borrowed EMU to shuttle between Watford-Wembley a couple of times, allowing passengers to get on the train whenever) to get on the train at a reasonable time!

 

[infobleep]

Well the Glasgow and Edinburgh service only allows you 50 minutes in advance and last week it was 12 minutes late having its platform advertised, cutting that time even less. So clearly it doesn't need to be a couple of hours. Still not keen on the idea but not all ideas implemented by railway companies am I keen on.

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[NotATrainspott]

Platform heights would be a bit of a problem for putting the Sleepers in St Pancras International platforms.

It may be possible to board the sleepers at night with the current platforms and a system of temporary ramps or the like without needing to physically change the station's security arrangements at all. The final Eurostar service leaves and arrives before either of the sleepers need to be there so it might be possible just to stand down security and let people in. However, it is the morning where the problems arise and as a result I don't see the sleepers ever going to St Pancras without some of these platforms being removed from the international zone.

If St Pancras were used as the replacement terminus for (some) LDHS WCML services for many years the cost of modifying the station would be justified and it would allow the sleepers to use it without any special arrangements being needed whatsoever. The International platforms at Stratford were modified with a temporary ~250m long Harrington Hump-style attachment to allow them to be used during the Olympics and Paralympics for the enhanced Javelin service. A similar thing could be put in place at St Pancras and in fact the plan was to do the same to the new Euston HS2 platforms to allow them to serve the classic trains while the classic station was being rebuilt.

 

[carriageline]

Crazy idea: Put each portion (or part of, if it won't fit the whole) into a bay platform at Watford. Send each portion at a time down to Wembley to couple up to make the full train, then send north. Could even build a temporary short platform at the sidings in Wembley to allow the train (or a borrowed EMU to shuttle between Watford-Wembley a couple of times, allowing passengers to get on the train whenever) to get on the train at a reasonable time!

Wemblwy ICD doesn't really have anywhere to put a platform, plus there is no "good" way for the public to access it.

Plus, say you drag the coaches down to the depot, the loco then needs to run round to the back of the consist, and propell the coaches on to the rest of the train, Wembley ICD doesn't really have faculties to run around

Then there's the problem of it being a good lines and not really fit for passenger use

Yeah, I know it wasn't a serious offer but still fun to discuss none the less!

 

[Tetchytyke]

A big consideration for me is whether the Croxley Rail Link is open in 2017, as it is currently planned to be.

If it is, then I think closing Euston in its entirety for two years would be the most sensible option.

Virgin services can terminate at Watford Junction or Milton Keynes Central. We can have a repeat of Project Rio for the Midland Main Line for Manchester passengers, to take some of the pressure off. Similarly we can see more trains extended from Edinburgh to Glasgow on the ECML, especially if the IEPs are delivered by then. The sleepers can go into Kings Cross, just like they did when the WCML was being rebuilt in the late 90s.

London Midland can split their services, perhaps running all stations and semi-fast between Queens Park (hopefully reinstating the fast line platforms in addition to the slow line platforms) and Milton Keynes, with fast trains connecting northbound at MK.

If the Croxley Link is open there will be 6tph Met line services from Watford to London, and we could also look at running Overground services via Primrose Hill to help people connect to north east London. The Bakerloo Line is one of the few tube lines in London that's not running at capacity, so having station interchanges with that line at Harrow, Wembley and Queens Park would also work.

 

[59CosG95]

The sleepers can go into Kings Cross, just like they did when the WCML was being rebuilt in the late 90s.

Is there a platform long enough to accommodate the sleepers at King's Cross? Platform 0, maybe?

 

[swt_passenger]

Thinking about the spare platform situation when the sleepers are heading north in the evening is one aspect of this. But if (as I expect) it is completely different in the morning period as they are arriving in London, that's when you should be looking for spare platforms and spare paths around the NLL and WLL etc. Completely different scenario then...

 

[IanXC]

However, it is the morning where the problems arise and as a result I don't see the sleepers ever going to St Pancras without some of these platforms being removed from the international zone.

If I put my mischievous hat on, perhaps the Scots will make the sleepers international... That'd solve some of the problems

 

[Bald Rick]

A big consideration for me is whether the Croxley Rail Link is open in 2017, as it is currently planned to be.

If it is, then I think closing Euston in its entirety for two years would be the most sensible option.

Virgin services can terminate at Watford Junction or Milton Keynes Central. We can have a repeat of Project Rio for the Midland Main Line for Manchester passengers, to take some of the pressure off. Similarly we can see more trains extended from Edinburgh to Glasgow on the ECML, especially if the IEPs are delivered by then. The sleepers can go into Kings Cross, just like they did when the WCML was being rebuilt in the late 90s.

London Midland can split their services, perhaps running all stations and semi-fast between Queens Park (hopefully reinstating the fast line platforms in addition to the slow line platforms) and Milton Keynes, with fast trains connecting northbound at MK.

If the Croxley Link is open there will be 6tph Met line services from Watford to London, and we could also look at running Overground services via Primrose Hill to help people connect to north east London. The Bakerloo Line is one of the few tube lines in London that's not running at capacity, so having station interchanges with that line at Harrow, Wembley and Queens Park would also work.

Sorry but this is wibble of the first water.

Firstly, it will take much longer than 2 years to rebuild Euston with no trains at all, in the same way that if there were no trains at all at London Bridge it would still take the best part of 4 years to rebuild.

Secondly, there are 24 trains into Euston in the high peak hour, most of which are 230metres long or more. There is simply not capacity to divert all of these passengers onto alternative routes. It's not as if Met line trains ex Watford arriving Baker St are empty, ditto Bakerloo line trains arriving Oxford circus ex Queens Park. The Midland Main Line is full in the peaks. So is the Chiltern (acknowledging the trains could be longer)

The only way to do it is to stage the closure, reduce capacity by a small amount, offering those passengers with a sensible alternative the option.

 

[59CosG95]

So it's settled. (But not Carlisled.) Shut Euston for 2-4 years while platform reconstruction takes place.
Diversions:
•Overground joins NLL at Primrose Hill.
•Sleeper goes into either St. P or King's X (Harrington humps being used at St. P).
•VT's southern limit is MK, with Brum services going on Chiltern, Manc. passengers using MML Project Rio, Central Belt passengers using East Coast, while Lime St. passengers have their journey curtailed at MK. (alternatively, the GW-WC chord could be brought into use, and VT services could start at Paddington.)
•LM services could go from Paddington, taking the 2 platforms used by their will-be-departed brethren (the 360s) for shorter-haul services e.g. Tring and MK. Longer services to Crewe and New Street could go from Queen's park instead.

 

[Haydn1971]

Coughs... A rebuild of Euston will probably end up being a whole contract length task - I.e one of the first things started on HS2 and one of the last things finished - I seem to recall that Meadowhall has a 9 year construction period, with a similar scale of construction required - Meadowhall is more viaduct but is a lot less constrained by existing rail and tube services and has plenty of space around it for site works unlike Euston - the more I think about it, the sooner Old Oak is built, the better in terms of easing pressure on Euston construction tasks

 

[Batman]

Will the Euston rebuild take account of Crossrail 2 and possible future construction of new platforms?

It'd be a shame if there's a decades worth of major disruption only for them to realise part way through or towards the end of it that yet more major building work is needed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Will the Euston rebuild take account of Crossrail 2 and possible future construction of new platforms?

It'd be a shame if there's a decades worth of major disruption only for them to realise part way through or towards the end of it that yet more major building work is needed.

To a certain extent yes, as the CR2 route is protected from development. The rebuilds of Victoria and Tottenham Court Road tube stations both allow for CR2 for example.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Will the Euston rebuild take account of Crossrail 2 and possible future construction of new platforms?

It'd be a shame if there's a decades worth of major disruption only for them to realise part way through or towards the end of it that yet more major building work is needed.

The new Euston redesign that is coming in response to the Higgins Report can now include not only passive provision but verging on active provision for Crossrail 2. Even if the services weren't able to start until after HS2 it would most certainly be possible to do a Canary Wharf and have the majority of the station finished before the rest of the line. If I remember correctly, there will be periods of time in when the tube station or parts thereof will have to close for major works to happen and it clearly would be beneficial if these could dovetail with the works for Crossrail 2. Indeed, it might even make these works less disruptive as CR2 will require extra access shafts and the like which wouldn't be justified without it but would be able to be used by the Tube station rebuild as well thus reducing disruption and build time.