London buses have become cashless

[Clip]

I am not surpassed theyare getting rid of cash fares as the present regime both as London mayor and a national level does not give a monkeys about poor people.

Hmm, surely the 'poor people' as you call them would already know that using an Oyster is far far cheaper than paying a cash fare.

Isnt that helping out 'poor people' bymaking it cheaper which is the very reason they use the bus in the first place.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, paying cash is stupid because it's so much more expensive. Even more so on the tube.

Don't people looking for work also have the option of a discounted Oyster too?

 

[Robertj21a]

.
I think people in other parts of the country probably don't appreciate just how busy TfL buses are, even at 3am. When you have a full bus, with standing all along the top deck, despite the service running every few minutes through the night, you begin to appreciate that a few fare dodgers are the least of your problems.

At least with TfL fares (Oyster) they are so ridiculously cheap that they're hardly throwing much money away.

Robert

 

[transportphoto]

I'm not sure whether this has before been officially announced, or discussed on here, however TfL have just tweeted:

Oyster ‘one more journey’ will be introduced before buses go cash free on Sun 6 July, helping customers home if they haven’t enough credit

 

[Tetchytyke]

TfL are being disingenuous though: you still need to have some credit for the system to work.

 

[Robertj21a]

TfL are being disingenuous though: you still need to have some credit for the system to work.

Quite right too. Why should something be given away for free ?

 

[Deerfold]

Quite right too. Why should something be given away for free ?

Well, there is the 5 quid deposit on Oyster cards.

 

[Be3G]

I was amused to peruse the staff guide to ticketing on London's Buses a couple of days ago, which contained such gems as:

Oyster card error or defective card
The passenger should be asked to touch their card against the yellow target of the card reader again. If the problem continues, the cash fare should be paid and the passenger advised to contact the Oyster card helpline immediately. The driver should not withdraw the Oyster card.

I wonder what the post-6-July one will say? ‘Tell the passenger to “get lost”’?

Being less facetious though, I am still genuinely concerned about the process regarding contactless cards. TfL clearly want people to transition to CPCs where possible; they've indicated that in various documents about plans for future ticketing and so forth. Which is great, except – as also documented by TfL – passengers using them might find themselves unable to board a bus through no fault of their own because of the contactless transaction limits imposed. What then? I notice it's an issue that TfL don't exactly go to great lengths to publicise.

 

[a729]

Yes, paying cash is stupid because it's so much more expensive. Even more so on the tube.

Don't people looking for work also have the option of a discounted Oyster too?

Not stupid if it's the only means of payment for travel to get home...
Still much cheaper than a taxi or a dodgy minicab!

 

[Deerfold]

Being less facetious though, I am still genuinely concerned about the process regarding contactless cards. TfL clearly want people to transition to CPCs where possible; they've indicated that in various documents about plans for future ticketing and so forth. Which is great, except – as also documented by TfL – passengers using them might find themselves unable to board a bus through no fault of their own because of the contactless transaction limits imposed. What then? I notice it's an issue that TfL don't exactly go to great lengths to publicise.

I'm not sure if there's change afoot on that score. As part of the contactless trial we've been told that on occasion we may not be allowed to board a bus if the card wants a PIN. However this will not happen on the tube. Presumably if they can stop it happening on the tube they can in future stop it happening on buses too (presumably with some acceptance of risk of the fare not being paid).

 

[34D]

I was amused to peruse the staff guide to ticketing on London's Buses a couple of days ago, which contained such gems as:



I wonder what the post-6-July one will say? ‘Tell the passenger to “get lost”’?

Being less facetious though, I am still genuinely concerned about the process regarding contactless cards. TfL clearly want people to transition to CPCs where possible; they've indicated that in various documents about plans for future ticketing and so forth. Which is great, except – as also documented by TfL – passengers using them might find themselves unable to board a bus through no fault of their own because of the contactless transaction limits imposed. What then? I notice it's an issue that TfL don't exactly go to great lengths to publicise.

Quite shocking. The staff ticketing guide to the M-Card smartcards (in west yorkshire) state that a passenger with a defective smartcard should be allowed to travel, and referred to a travel centre for the card to be replaced.

 

[Be3G]

I'm not sure if there's change afoot on that score. As part of the contactless trial we've been told that on occasion we may not be allowed to board a bus if the card wants a PIN. However this will not happen on the tube. Presumably if they can stop it happening on the tube they can in future stop it happening on buses too (presumably with some acceptance of risk of the fare not being paid).

I hope you're right! I'd like to start using my CPC rather than Oyster once capping is rolled out, but now that cash is being removed I'm nervous to do so because of the bus-PIN problem. I do every so often find myself in fairly remote spots of the bus network (e.g. Crews Hill with four buses a day and, to the best of my knowledge, no public cash machine); I don't fancy being told my CPC isn't working when somewhere like that.

 

[Deerfold]

I hope you're right! I'd like to start using my CPC rather than Oyster once capping is rolled out, but now that cash is being removed I'm nervous to do so because of the bus-PIN problem. I do every so often find myself in fairly remote spots of the bus network (e.g. Crews Hill with four buses a day and, to the best of my knowledge, no public cash machine); I don't fancy being told my CPC isn't working when somewhere like that.

The cash machine wouldn't help much as the bus won't accept cash - though you might be able to get a train to somewhere more useful.

I suspect this is linked to capping as with the introduction of capping a touch won't automatically mean money leaving your account - I'm sure there'd be no defence for not being allowed on a bus because of a PIN being required if you'd already made enough journeys to be capped (which of course neither your card nor the bus ticket machine will know).

 

[jon0844]

The cash machine wouldn't help much as the bus won't accept cash - though you might be able to get a train to somewhere more useful.

Could you 'reset' the card by using an ATM merely for a balance check though? It would at this point be verified with a PIN entry.

 

[Be3G]

Could you 'reset' the card by using an ATM merely for a balance check though? It would at this point be verified with a PIN entry.

Indeed, that's exactly what I meant.

I suspect this is linked to capping as with the introduction of capping a touch won't automatically mean money leaving your account - I'm sure there'd be no defence for not being allowed on a bus because of a PIN being required if you'd already made enough journeys to be capped (which of course neither your card nor the bus ticket machine will know).

Good thinking. The original CPC bus trial seemed to almost just be testing the physical interaction of card with Oyster reader, considering the lack of capping or even totalling of daily journeys for the purpose of billing. Hopefully with the introduction of capping they will get around the PIN problem.

 

[a729]

I hope you're right! I'd like to start using my CPC rather than Oyster once capping is rolled out, but now that cash is being removed I'm nervous to do so because of the bus-PIN problem. I do every so often find myself in fairly remote spots of the bus network (e.g. Crews Hill with four buses a day and, to the best of my knowledge, no public cash machine); I don't fancy being told my CPC isn't working when somewhere like that.

Why would you prefer the using CPC over oyster? After all that would mean the risk of been overcharged would mean risking going over your credit/OD limit compared to just having a negative balance on your Oyster card.

However I hope weekly capping is available on oyster as well as CPC

 

[Deerfold]

Why would you prefer the using CPC over oyster? After all that would mean the risk of been overcharged would mean risking going over your credit/OD limit compared to just having a negative balance on your Oyster card.

If you're not routinely near your limit that shouldn't be a problem. Only having one card prevents the possibility of clash. I'm happy to stay on Oyster but can see why people might like CPC.

However I hope weekly capping is available on oyster as well as CPC

It's unlikely - although this was mentioned before the introduction of Oyster I think with it never having happened so far this will be promoted as a benefit of moving to CPCs.

 

[radamfi]

Even if Oyster is abolished I think there will still be a high chance of clash as many people will have multiple contactless cards, for example a credit and a debit card. I think the days of tapping a wallet full of cards against the card reader are over. It is probably a good idea to have more than one contactless card anyway just in case one of them doesn't work for whatever reason.

 

[Be3G]

Why would you prefer the using CPC over oyster? After all that would mean the risk of been overcharged would mean risking going over your credit/OD limit compared to just having a negative balance on your Oyster card.

Fortunately I don't run my accounts that tightly to be a problem. The main advantages I see are the need to carry around one fewer card, and also the ease of getting refunds when one of my occasional tube/train journeys gets incorrectly charged. Plus the weekly capping of course, which as Deerfold mentioned will be a CPC-only feature, as it requires back-end processing (compared to daily capping which is calculated there-and-then by the Oyster reader when a card is presented).

The thing is though, even if I don't transition to CPCs, it's clearly TfL's intention to encourage people to do so, which is why I'm concerned about the bus-PIN problem – hopefully, as discussed, TfL will come up with a way of mitigating it.

 

[a729]

Fortunately I don't run my accounts that tightly to be a problem. The main advantages I see are the need to carry around one fewer card, and also the ease of getting refunds when one of my occasional tube/train journeys gets incorrectly charged. Plus the weekly capping of course, which as Deerfold mentioned will be a CPC-only feature, as it requires back-end processing (compared to daily capping which is calculated there-and-then by the Oyster reader when a card is presented).

The thing is though, even if I don't transition to CPCs, it's clearly TfL's intention to encourage people to do so, which is why I'm concerned about the bus-PIN problem – hopefully, as discussed, TfL will come up with a way of mitigating it.

I don't either , however many people do!

One less card isn't that big a deal tbh- I always carry quite a few cards anyway lol- debit,credit,loyalty cards etc...
How would getting a refund on CPC be any easier than an oyster refund?

I'm sure that weekly capping could be added to oyster if TfL wished ..however I can see TfL restricting it to CPC to encourage people to adopt CPC
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you're not routinely near your limit that shouldn't be a problem. Only having one card prevents the possibility of clash. I'm happy to stay on Oyster but can see why people might like CPC.

Many people will have more than 1 CPC so there is a risk of card clash or the wrong CPC been charged! So card clash is a risk that won't go away

 

[radamfi]

A Zone 1-9 Travelcard is £81.40 a week, so for weekly capping to work on Oyster you would have to have at least that much credit on the card.

However, if Oyster was to move to retrospective charging, then it could work. The Dutch are tentatively rolling out what they call "reizen op rekening". Obviously there is the risk of the passenger not having the money, which is why prepay is the current standard for smartcard implementation. So the Dutch have started with the safest customers, business travellers:

http://www.ns.nl/en/business/products/the-new-ns-business-card.html

NS Business Card holders can make unlimited trips by train, bus, tram or metro in the whole country, getting an itemised statement each month, which is great for filling out expense claims.

The next group of passengers to be 'trusted' are monthly season ticket holders. Monthly paper season tickets will soon no longer be available and monthly season tickets will be on smartcards only. The advantage is that if you travel outside the validity of your season ticket, the extra train travel will be billed retrospectively, so you don't need to buy an extra ticket. The ticket will also no longer be available at ticket offices. Season tickets will be only available online or on the phone, so NS can check your bank details.

http://www.ns.nl/reizigers/blind/abonnementen/traject-vrij-maand.html

 

[Deerfold]

A Zone 1-9 Travelcard is £81.40 a week, so for weekly capping to work on Oyster you would have to have at least that much credit on the card.

I'm not sure what your point is there. To buy the Travelcard you'd have to have £81.40 credit on your card too.

Presumably on a Monday you'll be charged for up to a day's cap.
And so on on every day until you hit a weekly cap and then if you have a day without going into any further zones you won't be charged any further.

TfL isn't risking £81.40 - if a card is stolen and notified it should stop working in under a week.

Season tickets will be only available online or on the phone, so NS can check your bank details.

Any particular reason that can't be done at a ticket office?

 

[radamfi]

I'm not sure what your point is there.

Now that I think about, I'm not sure now! I suppose there is something psychological that makes me think having a large balance is undesirable.

Any particular reason that can't be done at a ticket office?

According to the FAQ:

Ik koop mijn Maandtrajectabonnement nu op het station. Waarom kan ik Traject Vrij niet op het station kopen?

Traject Vrij wordt verkocht via de webshop op ns.nl of via Klantenservice. Met Traject Vrij reist u op rekening en daarom heeft NS een check nodig of het door u opgegeven bankrekeningnummer juist is. Dit gebeurt door de eerste termijn via iDEAL te voldoen (bij bestelling via de webshop) of via een eenmalig incasso (bij bestelling via Klantenservice).

Q: I buy my monthly season ticket at the station at the moment. Why can't I buy the Traject Vrij at the station?

A: Traject Vrij is sold at ns.nl or via Customer Services. With Traject Vrij, you pay retrospectively and therefore NS needs to check whether your bank account number is correct. This is done via a one-off payment through iDEAL (Dutch online payment system) if you buy via the web site, or a one-off direct debit if you buy via Customer Services.

 

[Be3G]

How would getting a refund on CPC be any easier than an oyster refund?

With an Oyster, refunds are provided automatically by sending it to collection from the customer's most frequently used station. Which isn't of much help if one happens to be a sporadic train/tube user like me (buses are my main mode of travel out here in suburbia), meaning I then have to phone up the Oyster helpline, arrange for a bank transfer, wait for them to get it wrong (not an exaggeration), phone again… it's a pain. In contrast, I presume that CPC refunds will automatically be returned to one's bank account instead – much simpler in my book.

As for the number of cards, I have a phone wallet case in which I like to keep the minimum number of cards necessary if I need to whizz out of the front door without packing loads of stuff.

 

[a729]

With an Oyster, refunds are provided automatically by sending it to collection from the customer's most frequently used station. Which isn't of much help if one happens to be a sporadic train/tube user like me (buses are my main mode of travel out here in suburbia), meaning I then have to phone up the Oyster helpline, arrange for a bank transfer, wait for them to get it wrong (not an exaggeration), phone again… it's a pain. In contrast, I presume that CPC refunds will automatically be returned to one's bank account instead – much simpler in my book.

As for the number of cards, I have a phone wallet case in which I like to keep the minimum number of cards necessary if I need to whizz out of the front door without packing loads of stuff.

I use a 3 section ticket holder that allows me to carry around 30 cards or so! With an oyster holder with another 20 or so less important loyalty cards!

TfL haven't said that, so you're making a rather big assumption! TfL rather likes giving refunds in such a way that you're forced to travel to make use of it- hence ensuring extra revenue for TfL.

Still there should be a DD style guarentee that protects you from any charges caused by any overcharging by TfL- e.g OD fees,Credit limit fees, additional interest charged on the amount TfL overcharged your credit card

I'm an urban dweller with quite a few tube stations nearby however with my close proximity to Zone 1 by bus- I rarely spend the premium to use rail services!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure what your point is there. To buy the Travelcard you'd have to have £81.40 credit on your card too.

Presumably on a Monday you'll be charged for up to a day's cap.
And so on on every day until you hit a weekly cap and then if you have a day without going into any further zones you won't be charged any further.

TfL isn't risking £81.40 - if a card is stolen and notified it should stop working in under a week.

TfL could just cap you daily from Monday-Sunday until you've spent the amount for a weekly travelcard. Of course you'd have to either top up at least around £10 or so a day depending on your zones. The oyster system has no problem upgrading from a bus cap to the tube cap- if I use the bus a lot and then start using the tube later in the day. Surely TfL can introduce oyster weekly capping without any risk to TfL.

 

[PermitToTravel]

TfL haven't said that, so you're making a rather big assumption! TfL rather likes giving refunds in such a way that you're forced to travel to make use of it- hence ensuring extra revenue for TfL.

In my experience they're always happy to pay refunds by BACS if you ask them. I've even had the helpline offer to make a refund this way, noting that I don't use trains regularly.

 

[a729]

In my experience they're always happy to pay refunds by BACS if you ask them. I've even had the helpline offer to make a refund this way, noting that I don't use trains regularly.

I've been overcharged many times over the years and I've never been offered a Bacs refund- albiet many were by a sum of less than a £1 as I was using my 11-15 oyster ! How fondly I look back back at the times when the tube was affordable for me with those heavily discounted fares

 

[radamfi]

I'm not sure what your point is there. To buy the Travelcard you'd have to have £81.40 credit on your card too.

Presumably on a Monday you'll be charged for up to a day's cap.
And so on on every day until you hit a weekly cap and then if you have a day without going into any further zones you won't be charged any further.

TfL isn't risking £81.40 - if a card is stolen and notified it should stop working in under a week.

Just noticed Dublin now does weekly capping with its Leap Card:

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSett...SOs8Oi5WHyaggCxyPdGXNqCkz6KJl/C2vRG9pBSEkDcc=

Although the maximum weekly cap is €40, a lot less than £81.40.

They also allow you to load 5/30 day Rambler tickets and 1 day Family Rambler tickets onto the Leap Card. However not regular 1 day Ramblers as you are expected to take advantage of capping instead.

 

[Deerfold]

They also allow you to load 5/30 day Rambler tickets and 1 day Family Rambler tickets onto the Leap Card. However not regular 1 day Ramblers as you are expected to take advantage of capping instead.

Sounds interesting having a family ticket on one card - I'm guessing Dublin has fewer barriers?

 

[34D]

Sounds interesting having a family ticket on one card - I'm guessing Dublin has fewer barriers?

Arguably, one way to do a family ticket could be to 'asssociate' 3 or 4 cardds together.