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Distraught mother + pushchair trying to board full trains
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It's clear that there can be no blanket rule on the requirement to fold a buggy. A request is just that, and recognises that there are situations, such as those described in this thread, where it is not practical or downright unsafe to attempt such a thing before boarding.
I'd rewrite the advice to ask for buggies to be folded 'if possible'. As I said, if there's more than one person then it's pretty easy. One person holds the baby, the other sorts everything else out.
You might also ask passengers to fold buggies onboard at busy times too. That should be common sense and often a sign is stupidly obvious, but it would be there to simply help staff ask (or even other passengers). It's obvious not to put feet on seats, but a sticker can at least make it easier to point to it and say that it isn't allowed.
You might also ask passengers to fold buggies onboard at busy times too. That should be common sense and often a sign is stupidly obvious, but it would be there to simply help staff ask (or even other passengers). It's obvious not to put feet on seats, but a sticker can at least make it easier to point to it and say that it isn't allowed.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
When my daughter was a baby we had a small Quinny buggy which folded up as easily as an umbrella. The baby was strapped into a car seat with a carry handle and that unclipped from the frame. I've managed to fold it up and carry it on to the Subway in Glasgow, which prohibits the use of unfolded prams and pushchairs.
Now she's four it's OK as well. She gets told to stand and wait.
But when she was a toddler it was a nightmare. Lifting her on the train as well as folding the pushchair (the same easy Quinny) was hard by myself. I only wince at how hard it must be to fold a "travel system". I can see why parents don't want to, but they DO take up a lot of room.
Now she's four it's OK as well. She gets told to stand and wait.
But when she was a toddler it was a nightmare. Lifting her on the train as well as folding the pushchair (the same easy Quinny) was hard by myself. I only wince at how hard it must be to fold a "travel system". I can see why parents don't want to, but they DO take up a lot of room.
When they're really small, if you have a car seat that can be put on to wheels (as we had) then you can at least put the baby down on the platform while folding that bit, knowing s/he is safe (and strapped in).
I presume we're talking more about buggies, rather than a pram which may have a detachable cot. They generally take up even more room, but are safer than having a small child suddenly free and unobserved for the time you need to gather up everything.
With the best will in the world, trying to teach a 2 year old about road safety or indeed safety on a railway platform isn't going to guarantee safety. At that age, they really don't appreciate the dangers properly.
I presume we're talking more about buggies, rather than a pram which may have a detachable cot. They generally take up even more room, but are safer than having a small child suddenly free and unobserved for the time you need to gather up everything.
With the best will in the world, trying to teach a 2 year old about road safety or indeed safety on a railway platform isn't going to guarantee safety. At that age, they really don't appreciate the dangers properly.
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It is not just media and hearsay. The fact this thread and many others exist demonstrate that while millions of journeys are made without any incident the rail system can let people down and if you have a sufficiently bad experience you are going to consider alternatives.
Things that may put some off:- The bewildering array of tickets and conditions that apply with the fare that fitted in with budgetary constraints not being available at a convenient travelling time.
There is a recent thread regarding stations you would prefer not to use for whatever reason. If you are travelling with luggage and there are stairs to a subway or bridge that may put you off. Short notice advice of platform at terminal stations or platform alterations.
Crossing London.
Bridges and subways between platforms, especially if there is no lift.
Reservation not existing or booked assistance failing to materialise.
Getting luggage on and off but unable to monitor it due to being seated 20' away with high backed seats.
Lack of reassurance or security due to lack of visible station or on train staff.
Lack of information when the train grinds to a halt in the middle of nowhere.
Terminating short due to late running and forced onto an already crowded train or even a Rail replacement bus.
hock:While some of these problems and others can be applied to coach travel things that may sway some people towards it are:
A through coach service to some destinations.
Emergency contact number? (Used to be printed on Nat Ex tickets)
Level interchanges.
Luggage stowed and a driver to confirm you are heading in the right direction.
As National Express are advertising on the rear of many coaches- A guaranteed seat.
A person in authority within sight and hailing distance.
Being able to see you are in a traffic queue.
If a little slow alighting the driver will see that.
Finally-Some people enjoy coach travel.
You could buy a return ticket to where you are doubling back at and start/finish short or have a BoJ , or a separate return ticket covering the double-back section. Although it can be quite complex at times, in this case a Return to/from London Terminals would be needed for use at Waterloo, either the same ticket with BoJ or separate ticket for that portion. No issues though if you're still in the same travelcard zone, we are very lucky here in London
Probably not worded that well
, so I'll give an example I'll be needing today :P: Return journey Waterloo-Weybridge (for Brooklands Museum 
), can sometimes be quicker to double-back via Woking on the outward rather than wait for the next 2tph service at Waterloo. So you buy your ticket to Woking and if double back is needed, then you BoJ the return at Weybridge, otherwise finish short at Weybridge and start short on the return portion. Or buy a separate return ticket for the Weybridge-Woking portion. On return from Weybridge the Waterloo train and the Woking train pass as roughly the same time so useless there.
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You could buy a return ticket to where you are doubling back at and start/finish short or have a BoJ , or a separate return ticket covering the double-back section. Although it can be quite complex at times, in this case a Return to/from London Terminals would be needed for use at Waterloo, either the same ticket with BoJ or separate ticket for that portion. No issues though if you're still in the same travelcard zone, we are very lucky here in London
Probably not worded that well
Well I can't see a parent with a push chair doing that. Their attitude will be we're not paying extra just because they can't run a train service to cope with demand. I'm referring to the Clapham Junction case here.
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Urban Gateline
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Probably not worded that well
Weybridge is quite well served, it actually has 4tph from Waterloo (12/20/42/50 minutes past the hour) I realise Woking has even more trains but surely 4tph is reasonable enough, Weybridge even has lifts too!
Indeed
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Ah, but this is Sunday where the 22/52 via Hounslow don't run and instead become the '50 to Woking which doesn't go Weybridge.
A wheelchair user can often double back (not sure how the rules apply to anyone with you, and it may just be one person at most) so in such circumstances you could potentially give authority to double back at no extra cost if you had a buggy and were on your own?
I didn't know that. Not something that is well advertised.
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Me too, never knew that either
FCC publishes an accessibility book, which is on their website I believe, that details all of this. I'm sure every TOC does, but - to be fair - unless you're disabled, you probably never asked to see it. It's probably not in the racks at stations.
For Hatfield, as example, it allows you to go south to Potters Bar and go north to avoid the bridge at Hatfield, or go to WGC and come back to Hatfield to avoid the bridge on the return.
It does of course mean additional journey time, especially as you'll likely wait a bit at WGC to return as ISTR the 'connection' time isn't realistic (clearly the timetable wasn't designed for people doubling back!).
The same guide explains about easements at other stations.
I have no idea whether a TOC would ever entertain the idea of allowing travel like this to someone with a buggy. My guess is probably not.
For Hatfield, as example, it allows you to go south to Potters Bar and go north to avoid the bridge at Hatfield, or go to WGC and come back to Hatfield to avoid the bridge on the return.
It does of course mean additional journey time, especially as you'll likely wait a bit at WGC to return as ISTR the 'connection' time isn't realistic (clearly the timetable wasn't designed for people doubling back!).
The same guide explains about easements at other stations.
I have no idea whether a TOC would ever entertain the idea of allowing travel like this to someone with a buggy. My guess is probably not.
Yes-but what is the alternative? This isn't really the railways problem. They can't reserve space on peak trains for pushchairs as then people would complain they arnt allowed into empty space!
It's only really something you can try and design into future rolling stock, like large open areas and clear signs to say that areas are reserved for wheelchairs, buggies, even bikes - rather like the 09 Stock, S-Stock and 378s. If people opt to stand there, that's entirely up to them, but they'll know they have to move.
In effect, during the peaks, people boarding into that section will be aware from the off that they may have to give up their space to others.
Until then, the only real option is to let the train go. The problem being that someone with a buggy on their own is going to be letting a lot more trains go than someone on their own. I agree there's little that can be done right now, but we should be thinking of that for the future.
Likewise for bikes. I am always annoyed when you get groups of cyclists that fill the doors and gangways with bikes (off peak), but I am not against cycling and agree that there should be areas they can go (and perhaps can ONLY go) on more trains. The area would have tip down seats and grab handles to be usable during the peaks when non-folding bikes wouldn't be allowed.
From what I can see, the 700s address a lot of these issues so I think it has been thought about. It might not be perfect, but it's going to be a lot better than what people have at the moment.
In effect, during the peaks, people boarding into that section will be aware from the off that they may have to give up their space to others.
Until then, the only real option is to let the train go. The problem being that someone with a buggy on their own is going to be letting a lot more trains go than someone on their own. I agree there's little that can be done right now, but we should be thinking of that for the future.
Likewise for bikes. I am always annoyed when you get groups of cyclists that fill the doors and gangways with bikes (off peak), but I am not against cycling and agree that there should be areas they can go (and perhaps can ONLY go) on more trains. The area would have tip down seats and grab handles to be usable during the peaks when non-folding bikes wouldn't be allowed.
From what I can see, the 700s address a lot of these issues so I think it has been thought about. It might not be perfect, but it's going to be a lot better than what people have at the moment.
It would be valuable if operators would publicise which tends to be the quieter ends of trains.
Several moan on here about how passengers tend to crowd into the "London end" of services to be first out of the barriers, OK then, how about publicising that the opposite end of the train tends to be quieter. This sort of thing, which is obvious to the railway cognoscenti, is not so much to regular or casual passengers.
It does however mean more information is needed on what formation is in use, to indicate where the rear of a train is. With modern platform information systems this seems no problem, to display how many cars, and to mark the platform with signs accordingly.
Several moan on here about how passengers tend to crowd into the "London end" of services to be first out of the barriers, OK then, how about publicising that the opposite end of the train tends to be quieter. This sort of thing, which is obvious to the railway cognoscenti, is not so much to regular or casual passengers.
It does however mean more information is needed on what formation is in use, to indicate where the rear of a train is. With modern platform information systems this seems no problem, to display how many cars, and to mark the platform with signs accordingly.
As a regular buggy-pusher I can tell you that most of those who stand in the area dedicated by signage for wheelchairs and pushchairs near us have not the faintest understanding that the space is allocated like this. You can "excuse me please" until you are blue in the face sometimes, with them just giving a perplexed look about what you want to do.
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Dedicated areas don't work though-on a mobbed rush hour train 6+ passengers would have to leave the train to let one or 2 on. I know it's dodgy with equal opportunities etc but I have witnessed 1st hand staff trying to ask rush hour passengers to leave a train so they can get a wheelchair on. No one was volunteering and who would step off and risk being late for work so that a mother a buggy can get on?
As I say I know it's harsh but you can't dedicate space to carrying around air during the rush hour to cater for a possible buggy boarding.
As I say I know it's harsh but you can't dedicate space to carrying around air during the rush hour to cater for a possible buggy boarding.
When you have a large open area, I expect people can shuffle around easier and nobody would need to get off. I wouldn't expect anyone to get off.
I am not suggesting you'd keep the buggy unfolded on the train either. It's just to make it easier to get on, where more open space makes it easier to clear some space. Then once the doors are shut and secured, you can work in safety unlike on a platform.
It won't be anything like a packed 313 in rush hour with 3+2 seating and barely any room for people to move (and we all know a lot of people will not move down the aisles no matter what, for fear of being trapped there).
I don't see it as a waste of space at off peak times, especially with tip down seats. For one, there are more wheelchair users now feeling comfortable to travel, so having space for 2 or even three wheelchairs should be considered worthwhile, and when it's not too busy, you can put buggies there (unfolded) without getting in the way of people, as they are in the vestibules or squeezed down the aisles.
If nothing else, it just makes it easier for someone with a buggy, wheelchair, bike or large luggage to make for a certain set of doors.
I am not suggesting you'd keep the buggy unfolded on the train either. It's just to make it easier to get on, where more open space makes it easier to clear some space. Then once the doors are shut and secured, you can work in safety unlike on a platform.
It won't be anything like a packed 313 in rush hour with 3+2 seating and barely any room for people to move (and we all know a lot of people will not move down the aisles no matter what, for fear of being trapped there).
I don't see it as a waste of space at off peak times, especially with tip down seats. For one, there are more wheelchair users now feeling comfortable to travel, so having space for 2 or even three wheelchairs should be considered worthwhile, and when it's not too busy, you can put buggies there (unfolded) without getting in the way of people, as they are in the vestibules or squeezed down the aisles.
If nothing else, it just makes it easier for someone with a buggy, wheelchair, bike or large luggage to make for a certain set of doors.
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Perhaps there isn't one but I can't see people paying more to double back.
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To be blunt, if travelling in a busy route I the rush hour expect busy trains. I understand people can't always choose when to travel but if travelling with a pushchair, large items, suitcases etc it's not unreasonable to consider that trains will be extremely busy and you may not physically fit on. Peak hour trains may not be a good choice of transport if travelling with a pram. Either leaving early to avoid the peak or finding alternative travel may be wiser.
Unfortunately, in London and the South east, the "rush hour" has steadily expanded to much of the day, and indeed at weekends as well. Services can be as busy on Saturdays as in the peak, and this is particularly the case with operators who put out 2-car trains on Saturday mornings where they use 8-car in the weekday peak, and individual passengers, let alone those with buggies, are left behind on platforms at 11 am (Southern, I'm looking at you).
I must admit I struggled once to board an FCC train on a Sunday in summer that was overcrowded. I think I got on at a push. However I'm one of these people who will try to find a space even if small, especially on Sundays when less trains run.
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I should of course be looking at FCC as well as Southern for stupidly short trains at weekends. A four car set on a Saturday morning Brighton-Bedford which is full approaching Gatwick, significantly overcrowded on to East Croydon, has people actually unable to get in there, and then passes all that fleet in Selhurst depot sunning itself for the weekend ......
Unfortunately a couple of the FCC trains I catch most often are 4 car. Right in the middle of the M-F peak in each direction.
Unfortunately they need to do maintenance at weekends so the units have to remain in the sidings. South West Trains are lengthening some services but perhaps given the up and coming changes, both FCC and Southern don't think it's financially viable to get more rolling stock in place.
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