Distraught mother + pushchair trying to board full trains

[feline1]

Ok, so at what point should the driver close the doors? 5 sec gap, 10src, 20, 30, 60, 90...?

Maybe I'm being naïve, but I kinda expected that drivers would receive training on this, and there'd be some kind of national guidelines/standards/best practice.

You seem to be implying it's just left to the whim of the driver and how impatient they are? Surely not?

 

[jon0844]

Commuters are often a lot more arrogant than parents, because they know how everything works and expect everyone else to do so too.

Some people, even in the peaks, are perhaps people who rarely use public transport.

I've seen the bad parents, but most are incredibly nice and make sure not to get in the way of others, and I hope that we're in that category (if not, I'd expect to be told so at the time). Just as my son doesn't get to sit on his own seat if there are other people wanting to sit down as he's not paid for a ticket, so he sits on a lap/knee.

It's all about being courteous to others and there are bad mums and dads, bad commuters, bad elderly people, bad disabled people, bad children, bad students, bad tourists, bad cyclists that are happy to block doorways and aisles, and bad staff.

Nevertheless, you have to always remain open minded when seeing any of the above.

 

[455driver]

My wife is travelling with our son to Sweden next month, going by train from St Albans to Gatwick Airport. Our son is two. He can walk, but he can also run off, so she'll be wanting him to be secured in his buggy when boarding and alighting

Put some reigns on him, get him out of the buggy before the train arrives, stand on the end of the reigns so he doesnt run off and she has both hands free to fold the buggy in advance and then its easy to get on the train.

 

[jon0844]

Put some reigns on him, get him out of the buggy before the train arrives, stand on the end of the reigns so he doesnt run off and she has both hands free to fold the buggy in advance and then its easy to get on the train.

And getting off?

By the way, we do have a harness with a lead but I don't think it's practical or safe to stand on it and expect it to stop someone running off (he's exceptionally strong, so he could yank it out from underneath her shoe with ease - as could probably any other toddler). You'd surely need to loop it around your foot, which could be a danger in itself for both parties.

And my son also hates it, and if we're standing on a platform then I'd sooner carry him or have him in a buggy.

All the posters I've seen show how to board with a buggy; push on, pull off, and I'm yet to see one that suggests the above process - unless you were joking?

Once on the train, it's time to take him out and fold the buggy.

 

[RichardN]

From the sound of it, she must have been going to Waterloo in the morning peak. In the afternoon peak, it isn't quite as crowded heading out of London and the Chessington trains in general are slightly quieter than the others.

There are several buses from Clapham Junction to Vauxhall (at least one of which starts at Clapham so should be no problem boarding) where the trains empty out a bit, or she could get a Southern Metro train to Battersea Park and a much faster bus journey to Vauxhall (stairs at Battersea Park would be no fun with a pushchair though.)

 

[tsr]

jonmorris0844 - If either you phone Southern or St Albans station staff phone Gatwick Airport station, preferably about 24 hours in advance or probably less if the staff call, there should hopefully be enough time to arrange for a station-based customer host (one of the folks with red coats on, for reference) to try to find your wife & son on the train. Just make sure they are told which coach & set of doors they are at (or get your wife to ask St Albans to pass them the details).

There are also dispatchers on every platform and there are usually managers (the staff in black or orange full-length jackets) wandering around.

It may sound really trivial for them, but Gatwick staff are very much used to dealing with anyone who genuinely needs a hand, and should not bat an eyelid at something like this. Safe dispatch is of course taken very seriously, and anyone who might otherwise run even a slight risk of being trapped in the doors or down the side of the platform should usually be made a priority. Not every station has the luxury of this sort of assistance, but it's something Southern do try hard at.

 

[GodAtum]

tsr thats very interesting to learn. Do the customer hosts exist at every Southern station or only Gatwick? I can imagine there might be longer dwell times at gatwick due to the fact most people using the station will have luggage.

 

[bunnahabhain]

There comes a point where if staff didn't "force" the train departure (safely of course) then nothing would move. Staff rely on people not risking their children in this way I guess! Make sure there is space for both before you commit something like that!

Been there, done that, losing 16 minutes of time cumulatively at Oxford Road and Piccadilly on one train was mental. An on time departure from our origin and a 41min late arrival into the station where I left the train was quite shocking, almost all of it down to overcrowding suffered at various stations.

As for the OPs post, all pushchairs must be folded if they are to be carried on the train, its only with the guards discretion that it may be carried unfolded.

 

[fowler9]

We have reached a point where we all live too far away from where we need to travel to on a regular basis. This is mostly due to idiotic property prices in the UK. We all need to move around the country to where the work is and when we get there need to live many miles away from there so we can stick a roof over our heads. None of this will change any time soon.

 

[transmanche]

As for the OPs post, all pushchairs must be folded if they are to be carried on the train, its only with the guards discretion that it may be carried unfolded.

SWT's Passenger Charter suggests it's OK to take unfolded pushchairs:

Many of our trains have been designed with areas of flexible space, making it easier to travel with pushchairs. All of our trains with toilets have at least one facility that offers a baby-change table and space for a pushchair.

If you need help lifting your pushchair onto the platform or onto a train, our staff will help you, providing that they are physically fit to be able to do so and that you remove your child from the pushchair. Our staff are trained to assist in line with the principle: ‘parents take the baby, we’ll take the pram’.

 

[jon0844]

Interesting to read that there any rules about folding buggies, as there are posters around showing how to board with a buggy and it clearly shows the child in it, strapped in. It then says to pull the buggy out (as you would on a bus) and push them on.

Nowhere have I seen signs to say a buggy must be folded and a baby carried on.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[Class377/5]

Interesting to read that there any rules about folding buggies, as there are posters around showing how to board with a buggy and it clearly shows the child in it, strapped in. It then says to pull the buggy out (as you would on a bus) and push them on.

Nowhere have I seen signs to say a buggy must be folded and a baby carried on.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Common sense says if a trains busy you fold it up, is that really that difficult? If the railway is to start to put up signs for common sense then it'd need to plaster the whole train.

 

[DownSouth]

If the railway is to start to put up signs for common sense then it'd need to plaster the whole train.

Which would of course have the opposite effect - too many signs (or audio announcements) will lead to people refusing to give any of them the required attention.

 

[bronzeonion]

Bloody pushchairs! What happened to baby carriers that put the baby on your front or back?

 

[Smudger105e]

Common sense says if a trains busy you fold it up, is that really that difficult?

I think the answer to that is yes!

It seems that some posters on here seem rather intolerant of parents with pushchairs using trains at busy times. Am I to assume that they have never been in the position of having to juggle children, luggage, pushchairs et al?

Let's look at a scenario. You are waiting on the platform with a pushchair, toddler, and some shopping. At what moment do you extract the child from the pushchair? When the train enters the platform? When it stops? Let's assume, for safety, that you decide that you have to wait for the train to stop. First you have to move so that you are within striking distance of a door. You then remove the child from the pushchair. You have to fit reins/lead to the child to prevent them running off. You remove the shopping from the pushchair and place it on the platform. You fold the buggy. You then have to decide in which order to place child/pushchair/shopping on the train. Child and pushchair first? If so then do you get the child to leave the train with you to get the shopping or do you leave the child unattended on the train?

As you can see, this is a complicated process that has to be carried out in all sorts of weather, under the pressure of the train departure and other passengers boarding/alighting. And if the parent is not over confident with rail travel on top of all that...

 

[jon0844]

Common sense says if a trains busy you fold it up, is that really that difficult? If the railway is to start to put up signs for common sense then it'd need to plaster the whole train.

I'd say that yes it IS that difficult. Of course you fold the buggy on the train, but not to get on and off, at least unless there is more than one adult (when it's a doddle and the buggy can be folded as soon as you set foot on the platform).

It naturally depends on the age of the child too, as to how safe it might be to leave him or her while you gather everything together, and fold your buggy (and as I've asked before, how do you do things when getting off?).

Now if the train is too packed to get a buggy on before folding it, then that's a problem. Clearly people aren't going to move as they would for a wheelchair. Ultimately, I guess you simply can't get on the train. And that would be a safer move than having your child run off, or trying to hold him or her on a lead while juggling everything else - also causing a delay to the departure, missing a path and having everyone hating the parent even more.

If it became such a problem for a single person with a child to get on or off, and were told to fold the buggy and tether their child, they'd presumably stop travelling on public transport. I doubt the industry wants that.

I don't even want to think what happens if you were (un)lucky enough to have twins - or more!

 

[Greenback]

We have reached a point where we all live too far away from where we need to travel to on a regular basis. This is mostly due to idiotic property prices in the UK. We all need to move around the country to where the work is and when we get there need to live many miles away from there so we can stick a roof over our heads. None of this will change any time soon.

I agree with the first part. Though I think some of the cause is the desire for people to live far from their work, rather than being forced into it. Many desire to live in a nice, more rural area instead of a city, and I understand why! But for some it;s a lifestyle choice rather than having no choice at all.

Also, there are those who do not want to move and disrupt their lives, or their children's schooling without very good reason.

The continued drive towards centralisation of services has left some people with a long commute, but not because of housing costs or the desire to live in a better area, but because their job has moved and they don't want to!

So I do think that ther eis mor epersonal choice at play than your post your post implies.

Bloody pushchairs! What happened to baby carriers that put the baby on your front or back?

Modern buggies, built like a Challenger tank, have become the transport of choice these days. How much this has to do with style or health and safety I wouldn't like to say!

 

[jon0844]

We've got as small a buggy as we can get without it being useless (i.e. one of those £15 ones you might see used at an airport to get you to the gate when you've checked yours in).

It's very quick and easy to fold up and carry.

I agree that some buggies these days are bigger than the train they're trying to be put on!

 

[w0033944]

It seems to me that there's quite a few single male commenters on here who think they're childcare experts despite not having anything to do with them. I'm in that position myself, but, as a wheelchair user, I'm used to having to juggle more things when performing tasks and having to take longer in the process, so I'd like to think I have a touch more understanding than the average able-bodied childless person.

Also, forgive my ignorance, but can't we put some of these problems down to the absence of a guard on many modern units?

 

[Smudger105e]

can't we put some of these problems down to the absence of a guard on many modern units?

:thumbsup:

 

[fusionblue]

Also, forgive my ignorance, but can't we put some of these problems down to the absence of a guard on many modern units?

Can we also assign some of the blame of the designs of most units (376 and 378 being the notable exceptions) having designs that encourages people to stand near, or be all bunched in, by the doors?

 

[jon0844]

Modern stock is certainly far more wheelchair, buggy and even bike friendly. Get on an S-Stock train and there's even a specific priority area for buggies. Yes, buggies, not wheelchairs (that's on the other side). No need to fold anything up there. Level access too, so even less bother.

Hopefully with the introduction of the Class 700s, these will also become far more accessible for all. As I keep saying, you might not benefit today from these things, but you might tomorrow - or someone else in your family.

 

[fusionblue]

Modern stock is certainly far more wheelchair, buggy and even bike friendly. Get on an S-Stock train and there's even a specific priority area for buggies. Yes, buggies, not wheelchairs (that's on the other side). No need to fold anything up there. Level access too, so even less bother.

Hopefully with the introduction of the Class 700s, these will also become far more accessible for all. As I keep saying, you might not benefit today from these things, but you might tomorrow - or someone else in your family.

You are right, but i wasn't referring to LU stock. Mainly because most of the new LU units actually have been designed with passenger flow (or infrastructure limitations?) in mind. In comparison, the 465/466/319/377 (with 3-2 seating) all sport a "closed" feel despite being "high volume" units. The 376/378 lack this to encourage people to move about.

Back when they were designed they werent built with the idea that these units might become so busy that the areas around the doors becomes a chicken coop for zombie humans to continue being zombies

 

[londonbridge]

on similar ground (trying to board a full train):

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=461706&postcount=33

 

[jon0844]

You are right, but i wasn't referring to LU stock.

Fair enough. I have to say that I sort of see the 378s on LO as being more like tube stock, even though they aren't. It's a similar mindset.

Had it remained part of the normal rail network, do we think the same trains would have been purchased (or with the same internal design layout at least)?

The 700s will be far more spacious if you board at the right set of doors (and if the livery is the same as that of the prototype, it's very clear - which is another benefit over many existing trains where such stickers are almost invisible at times).

 

[ushawk]

Regarding this incident, I do have a few things -

1. Why couldnt the parent attempt to try other places to try and board the train, IE the front or rear as more often than not, there is a bit more space as commuters often go for the middle coaches, possibly the front too especially if into Waterloo - maybe the rear might have been a better bet.

2. Why, after a few failed chances of getting onto the train, couldnt she have sought a member of staff to get some assistance ? They would be able to help force people to move down inside trains, which is a big issue on busy services as people always clog up by the doors.

3. Further to the above, if you really felt like you were unable to get on, why not attempt to get a bus, or speak to staff regarding alternative transport/methods of travel. Clapham has 2 parts of the station so she could have attempted to use the other side of the station for a service.

4. Why was the OP watching this woman for 15 trains ? They are at about a fequency of every 5 minutes or so during the AM peak from Clapham to Waterloo, so that is sitting there watching for over an hour, do you not have a train to catch ? Why would you do that and also, if you are seeing that they have an issue - why not offer to help ? Also, "distraught", really ? Frustrated, yes. Distraught is a word used for when, as an example, you lose a loved one - not the same as having issues getting on a train.

 

[Bayum]

Regarding this incident, I do have a few things -

1. Why couldnt the parent attempt to try other places to try and board the train, IE the front or rear as more often than not, there is a bit more space as commuters often go for the middle coaches, possibly the front too especially if into Waterloo - maybe the rear might have been a better bet.

2. Why, after a few failed chances of getting onto the train, couldnt she have sought a member of staff to get some assistance ? They would be able to help force people to move down inside trains, which is a big issue on busy services as people always clog up by the doors.

3. Further to the above, if you really felt like you were unable to get on, why not attempt to get a bus, or speak to staff regarding alternative transport/methods of travel. Clapham has 2 parts of the station so she could have attempted to use the other side of the station for a service.

4. Why was the OP watching this woman for 15 trains ? They are at about a fequency of every 5 minutes or so during the AM peak from Clapham to Waterloo, so that is sitting there watching for over an hour, do you not have a train to catch ? Why would you do that and also, if you are seeing that they have an issue - why not offer to help ? Also, "distraught", really ? Frustrated, yes. Distraught is a word used for when, as an example, you lose a loved one - not the same as having issues getting on a train.

Excuse the passenger for not understanding the psychology of boarding trains. How many people can be expected to know that commuters generally board the middle coaches at x station?

Also, distraught doesn't just denote sadness, but also worry. Therefore a woman who is unduly worried at the prospect of boarding busy trains with a pushchair could indeed be said to be distraught.

 

[fowler9]

I agree with the first part. Though I think some of the cause is the desire for people to live far from their work, rather than being forced into it. Many desire to live in a nice, more rural area instead of a city, and I understand why! But for some it;s a lifestyle choice rather than having no choice at all.

Also, there are those who do not want to move and disrupt their lives, or their children's schooling without very good reason.

The continued drive towards centralisation of services has left some people with a long commute, but not because of housing costs or the desire to live in a better area, but because their job has moved and they don't want to!

So I do think that ther eis mor epersonal choice at play than your post your post implies.

Sorry if this seems off topic but in my opinion it is a lot of the reason this kind of thing happens.



Modern buggies, built like a Challenger tank, have become the transport of choice these days. How much this has to do with style or health and safety I wouldn't like to say!

Spot on, there is definitely more an element of personal choice than I implied. However, I basically got lucky with my current job, it is a thirty minute walk away from my house or fairly similar using public transport. I won't bore you with the details. The thing is it is yet another out of city development. Makes no odds to me as if it was in the city centre it would take take me no longer to get to. Lots of the people I work with though took the job because, hey, it was a job, and they have to commute in to the city centre before then commuting back out again to my neck of the woods. I'm still in bed half an hour after some of them leave home, and I get to work before them. The office is there because the rent is cheaper whereas Liverpool city centre is full of more expensive empty offices.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with the first part. Though I think some of the cause is the desire for people to live far from their work, rather than being forced into it. Many desire to live in a nice, more rural area instead of a city, and I understand why! But for some it;s a lifestyle choice rather than having no choice at all.

Also, there are those who do not want to move and disrupt their lives, or their children's schooling without very good reason.

The continued drive towards centralisation of services has left some people with a long commute, but not because of housing costs or the desire to live in a better area, but because their job has moved and they don't want to!

So I do think that ther eis mor epersonal choice at play than your post your post implies.



Modern buggies, built like a Challenger tank, have become the transport of choice these days. How much this has to do with style or health and safety I wouldn't like to say!

Spot on, there is definitely more an element of personal choice than I implied. However, I basically got lucky with my current job, it is a thirty minute walk away from my house or fairly similar using public transport. I won't bore you with the details. The thing is it is yet another out of city development. Makes no odds to me as if it was in the city centre it would take take me no longer to get to. Lots of the people I work with though took the job because, hey, it was a job, and they have to commute in to the city centre before then commuting back out again to my neck of the woods. I'm still in bed half an hour after some of them leave home, and I get to work before them. The office is there because the rent is cheaper whereas Liverpool city centre is full of more expensive empty offices.

Sorry if this seems off topic but in my opinion it is a massive part of the cause of this problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry mods, don't know what happened there.

 

[deltic]

Regarding this incident, I do have a few things -

1. Why couldnt the parent attempt to try other places to try and board the train, IE the front or rear as more often than not, there is a bit more space as commuters often go for the middle coaches, possibly the front too especially if into Waterloo - maybe the rear might have been a better bet.

2. Why, after a few failed chances of getting onto the train, couldnt she have sought a member of staff to get some assistance ? They would be able to help force people to move down inside trains, which is a big issue on busy services as people always clog up by the doors.

3. Further to the above, if you really felt like you were unable to get on, why not attempt to get a bus, or speak to staff regarding alternative transport/methods of travel. Clapham has 2 parts of the station so she could have attempted to use the other side of the station for a service.

4. Why was the OP watching this woman for 15 trains ? They are at about a fequency of every 5 minutes or so during the AM peak from Clapham to Waterloo, so that is sitting there watching for over an hour, do you not have a train to catch ? Why would you do that and also, if you are seeing that they have an issue - why not offer to help ? Also, "distraught", really ? Frustrated, yes. Distraught is a word used for when, as an example, you lose a loved one - not the same as having issues getting on a train.

Good customer service suggests that staff should notice the issue and intervene rather than passenger having to ask for help - travelling on the Victoria Line in the morning peak the other day, grandmother with buggy, mother carrying baby boarded and platform staff looked in the door to make sure they were on okay and someone had offered up their seat. That is good customer practice.

Given that large numbers of people interchange at Clapham Junc I am surprised there was no room as people got off - unless people getting on just jumped in front of her.

When I used to take my young children to a child minder on the old routemasters (so folded buggy in one hand, child in other) it was interesting to see the attitude of conductors, ranging from total disinterest whether you got on or not to telling people to give up your seat for you and helping you on board.


Why would you give up trying to catch a train which run every few minutes and take about 10mins to get to Waterloo for a bus which are less frequent, take around an hour, may not go where you want to and there is no guarantee you will get on and you have to try and persuade someone to reimburse your fare.

Are there lifts at Clapham Junction - its no joke carry buggy and baby up and down stairs although people are often kind enough to offer to help.

It was a complete shock to travel with children in Paris, we were ushered to the front of queues and people allowed us to board metro trains first - I was very impressed.

 

[jon0844]

While defending people with buggies, I wanted to say something to a nasty mum today - perhaps the mum that was alluded to the other day (Jeremy Kyle etc)!

On a train to King's Cross (321) and needed the toilet, so I walked through to get to it. No problem until the internal door hit something.. oh, a buggy!

I started to knock on the door, but the mum did nothing. The kid was on the seat(s) looking at me and making faces, but that was it.

Eventually an older lady came over and asked the mum to move the buggy as I was trying to come through. The look she got, and then me as I came in, was a look of 'And what the &&** do you need to come through here for?', with a loud sigh and then putting it straight back. Clearly I was NOT welcome.

I wanted to point out that the internal gangway doors are emergency exits, but thought against it as I didn't fancy the abuse I'd get - with the question that I sometimes here along the lines of 'and where the f*** am I supposed to put the buggy then you ****?'

The thing was, it was the same buggy that we have... a Maclaren, so had we had that conversation I could have folded it for her right there and then.