Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[Bald Rick]

I am in the fortunate position of getting free rail travel for self, wife and my two children. We have holidayed in Cornwall, and West Wales several times, and are doing so again this year. My youngest child suffers from awful car sickness. Yet we would never consider taking the train down there.

This has nothing to do with there being no alternative route west of Exeter (or Swansea) in case the main line is closed, nor that the trains are (supposedly) slow, old, late or infrequent. It has everything to do with the practicality of taking 4 people with 'stuff' for a fortnight, and having the flexibility to go and visit different beaches and other attractions across the region in the event of inclement weather. Which we have unfortunately experienced a lot. No rail service could have accommodated what we have done in the past, and I don't know anyone who would get the train in a similar situation.

Clearly there is a market for people taking the train to a specific resort, but this is very much the minority of leisure travellers heading south west.

 

[HowardGWR]

Clearly there is a market for people taking the train to a specific resort, but this is very much the minority of leisure travellers heading south west.

I am sure you are right, but the BCR for a reopening such as the north Dartmoor route will not seek to depend on this traffic. There are plenty other categories to do that.

 

[The Ham]

Clearly there is a market for people taking the train to a specific resort, but this is very much the minority of leisure travellers heading south west.

Which is why the trains to Newquay in the summer can be very busy.

If the buses were better (as there are only so many places you can get to by trian) then more people would be inclided to use the train, however given the limited number of trains a day which go there there isn't the demand for the buses to be better. All in all it is unlikely to improve unless there is a step change in the rail services, which is likely to require a large infrestructure project.

The advantage of the Okehampton route is that even if it only matches the current Exeter to Plymouth times if it were to be an exstention of the SWT's Exeter service (even if it was once every 2 hours run by a single 159) it would provide an extra 500 standard class and 168 first class seats a day between Exeter and Plymouth (i.e. more than adding an extra HST but with the advantage of being spread over the day).

It would also make journies from the south easier to undertake amd for the most part faster (i.e. Southampton, Salisbury and basicly anywhere on the SWML other than Basingstoke). Although such markets are unlikely to be large, given the distances they could make it worth it for the TOC's to run such services (as even on an hourly frequency run with a 159 would only require two extra sets over the existing).

For instance a lease cost of £330,000 per year (one class 159 based on £110,000 per coach) plus (say) double for the other costs works out at £2,200 per day (based on a 300 day year, as some days would be less busy than others). Give that Basingstoke to Exeter is a little under £50 then that is an extra 44 people per day, over 7 trains that is an extra 7 people per train to cover the costs plus a bit. (if it was over 13 trains on an hourly frequency it would work out the same, although the bit would be a little less).

Given Southampton or Salisbury to Plymouth are £55 (or a little bit more), then that reduces the number of people per day down to 40 (on a one every two hour frequency) and then there would be the extra income from the new route itself (i.e. Tavistoke to Exeter, Okehampton to Plymouth, etc.) and the cost saving of not having to have trains running the shuttle between Tavistock and Plymouth and Okehampton and Exeter (unless a half hourly frequency was required) and the income starts to look fairly reasonable.

I know that SWT's doesn't run the Plymouth to Gunnislake service, but I'm sure it is unlikely to be a great loss to GW if it moves over to another TOC as it is unlikely to be one of their big earners. Although, it could still be run by GW by running a unit up to be locked in first thing in the moring and back again last thing at night, with a share of the ticket price on those using the SWT's service beyond the branch line.

 

[Rich McLean]

If SWT would run the service, it would require two additional 159s to run a 1tp2hr service, only calling at (from EXD) Crediton, Oakhampton Tavistock, St Beauduax Victoria Road, Devonport and Plymouth and the reverse in return

An additional FGW service in the alternate hours from Tavi calling at Bere Alston, Bere Ferres, St Beauduax Victoria Road, Keyham, Dockyard, Devonport and Plymouth, which will connect with the Gunni branch shuttle

 

[The Ham]

If SWT would run the service, it would require two additional 159s to run a 1tp2hr service, only calling at (from EXD) Crediton, Oakhampton Tavistock, St Beauduax Victoria Road, Devonport and Plymouth and the reverse in return

An additional FGW service in the alternate hours from Tavi calling at Bere Alston, Bere Ferres, St Beauduax Victoria Road, Keyham, Dockyard, Devonport and Plymouth, which will connect with the Gunni branch shuttle

I'm not sure how you get that to work, If it takes 1 hour to get from Exeter to Plymouth (i.e. a comparable journey to the existing route, although possiblely a slightly faster average speed to allow for a few more stops), then it will take 2 hours to get from Exeter to Plymouth and back again. Therefore there would only be one extra unit in use on that length if it was run as a single class 159, as when one left the route (to join the train back to London) another would then start on the route (having just arrived from London).

 

[Rapidash]

Tell you what folks, when I get the train back from Exeter Central tomorrow down to the Bay, shall I take a piccy on the platform to show the internal traffic? All this focus on people coming into the area utterly ignores those of us who actually live here, and who use the overloaded, overworked services on the Metro to get to and from work.

Its quite frankly demeaning for anyone to not give a flying monkeys about the people here, and focusing on the time it takes a grockel to get to bloody Penzance. Anyone suggesting that going by road is quicker is living in cloud coocoo land. Newton road anyone?

Never mind, I'll just shuffle off to the bus again :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

As part of an increase in investment, a substantial lengthening of local services wouldn‘t necessarily be mutually exclusive of other necessary improvements such as alternative routes and higher speeds.

Capacity on regional metro routes seems to be similar to the problems we have up here, so possibly attract less comment than some of the other more South West specific issues.

 

[455driver]

Tell you what folks, when I get the train back from Exeter Central tomorrow down to the Bay, shall I take a piccy on the platform to show the internal traffic? All this focus on people coming into the area utterly ignores those of us who actually live here, and who use the overloaded, overworked services on the Metro to get to and from work.

Its quite frankly demeaning for anyone to not give a flying monkeys about the people here, and focusing on the time it takes a grockel to get to bloody Penzance. Anyone suggesting that going by road is quicker is living in cloud coocoo land. Newton road anyone?

Never mind, I'll just shuffle off to the bus again :roll:

You mean the yokels use the trains! hock: Surely not, I thought they all stayed in doors, sat around the fire hitting each other on the heads with clubs!

On a serious note, those peak time trains are very well filled indeed, people have to get on them because the next train isnt for half an hour or maybe even an hour on some routes so they crush on. The trains might not be long but they are certainly full.

 

[The Ham]

Tell you what folks, when I get the train back from Exeter Central tomorrow down to the Bay, shall I take a piccy on the platform to show the internal traffic? All this focus on people coming into the area utterly ignores those of us who actually live here, and who use the overloaded, overworked services on the Metro to get to and from work.

Its quite frankly demeaning for anyone to not give a flying monkeys about the people here, and focusing on the time it takes a grockel to get to bloody Penzance. Anyone suggesting that going by road is quicker is living in cloud coocoo land. Newton road anyone?

Never mind, I'll just shuffle off to the bus again :roll:

Although, if the mainline were to go via Okehampton (if it was faster) then there would be more paths for services between Exeter and the Bay. Either with fast/semi fast services to Newton Abbot and then stopping/skipping one or two of the more minor stations beyond there and/or a more frequent Metro service.

That would then give those who use the Metro service extra seats (and possibly a few faster services a day) as well as giving the grockels a faster journey to Cornwall. Doing something for the grockels does not mean that the locals will be losing out, in fact it could mean that they benefit. Although it would depend on the scheme as to how much they would benefit by and what was possible.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Although, if the mainline were to go via Okehampton (if it was faster) then there would be more paths for services between Exeter and the Bay. Either with fast/semi fast services to Newton Abbot and then stopping/skipping one or two of the more minor stations beyond there and/or a more frequent Metro service.

That would then give those who use the Metro service extra seats (and possibly a few faster services a day) as well as giving the grockels a faster journey to Cornwall. Doing something for the grockels does not mean that the locals will be losing out, in fact it could mean that they benefit. Although it would depend on the scheme as to how much they would benefit by and what was possible.

Devon have 'Grockels'.
But in Cornwall they are called 'Emmets'!
Categories of passengers?
Business (which could also be commuting), Commuter and Leisure?
Leisure could be holiday shopping football etc.

 

[HowardGWR]

If SWT would run the service, it would require two additional 159s to run a 1tp2hr service, only calling at (from EXD) Crediton, Oakhampton Tavistock, St Beauduax Victoria Road, Devonport and Plymouth and the reverse in return

It's Okehampton, it really is! Also it's St Budeaux (I presume that's where you mean?).

 

[The Ham]

Devon have 'Grockels'.
But in Cornwall they are called 'Emmets'!
Categories of passengers?
Business (which could also be commuting), Commuter and Leisure?
Leisure could be holiday shopping football etc.

My use of the work Grockel was in relationship to the post I was responding to, who talked about them going to Penzance (which I was assuming was accurate as the poster is talking about Grockels as they pass through Devon; as they would only be Emmets to those who where in Cornwall, i.e. those residents west of the Tamar*). I'm sure those in Cornwall would be equally upset about outsides being seen to be the only people to benefit from a railway scheme if the shoe was on the other foot.

* Unless you are one of the many Grockels/Emmets who think that Plymouth is in Cornwall.

 

[HowardGWR]

My use of the work Grockel .

Sounds a bit Tolkien-ish to me. I think it should be Grockle.

 

[The Ham]

Sounds a bit Tolkien-ish to me. I think it should be Grockle.

I just copied the spelling that Rapidash used, I didn't think to check the spelling.

 

[K Macdonald]

Now, it's a question of necessity that an alternative route is available as the current sea wall defences at Dawlish and along the coast are proving to be inadequate considering the facts that the southern half of the country is 'sinking' and climate change is affecting our Winter weather.

It's amazing what "facts" can be used (and misused).

That fact is, yes, sea levels are rising, or rather (as you say) the southern half of the country is sinking. And it has been since the last Ice Age, c. 11,000 years ago. But the current rate of rising is measured in millimetres per decade. The Met Office has had to (rather bravely) stuck its head above the parapet and said the recent weather extremes are not to do with climate change. The senior climatologist, Professor Mat Collins of Exeter University, said in February that:-

‘There is no evidence that global warming can cause the jet stream to get stuck in the way it has this winter. If this is due to climate change, it is outside our knowledge.’

Any more than exceptional weather was in Brunel's era. There's always been exceptional weather, and every ten of fifteen years or so, it's sods law that extreme winter storms will coincide with tidal surges to produce mega-storms.

Just as the flooding in Somerset was made much worse by inadequate dredging, the situation in Dawlish was made worse by the failure to maintain the groins.

Groins? What groins? The groins are those planks of wood or strips of concrete slabs that run out to sea, spaced a few hundred yards apart all the way from Dawlish Warren to Dawlish and beyond. They've been there since Brunel's time, as a way of preventing longshore drift. Without them, the beach level is much lower, and storm waves can get much closer to the sea wall, with much more destructive energy.

The extra damage is inevitable, and it's got nothing to do with sloppy science, rising sea levels or climate change. In short, blaming global warming is a poor excuse, and it ignores the bleeding obvious. However much we'd all like a nice new railway line.

 

[Rich McLean]

It's Okehampton, it really is! Also it's St Budeaux (I presume that's where you mean?).

My spelling is bad, Dyslexic and didn't use the spell checker :cry:

 

[Harpers Tate]

Not the only one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groyne
(I blame US spellcheckers)

 

[LateThanNever]

It's amazing what "facts" can be used (and misused).

That fact is, yes, sea levels are rising, or rather (as you say) the southern half of the country is sinking. And it has been since the last Ice Age, c. 11,000 years ago. But the current rate of rising is measured in millimetres per decade. The Met Office has had to (rather bravely) stuck its head above the parapet and said the recent weather extremes are not to do with climate change. The senior climatologist, Professor Mat Collins of Exeter University, said in February that:-

‘There is no evidence that global warming can cause the jet stream to get stuck in the way it has this winter. If this is due to climate change, it is outside our knowledge.’

Any more than exceptional weather was in Brunel's era. There's always been exceptional weather, and every ten of fifteen years or so, it's sods law that extreme winter storms will coincide with tidal surges to produce mega-storms.

Just as the flooding in Somerset was made much worse by inadequate dredging, the situation in Dawlish was made worse by the failure to maintain the groins.

Groins? What groins? The groins are those planks of wood or strips of concrete slabs that run out to sea, spaced a few hundred yards apart all the way from Dawlish Warren to Dawlish and beyond. They've been there since Brunel's time, as a way of preventing longshore drift. Without them, the beach level is much lower, and storm waves can get much closer to the sea wall, with much more destructive energy.

The extra damage is inevitable, and it's got nothing to do with sloppy science, rising sea levels or climate change. In short, blaming global warming is a poor excuse, and it ignores the bleeding obvious. However much we'd all like a nice new railway line.

And who knows what the failure to maintain the groins is going to do? The National Trust has indicated that it is unlikely that they will continue with theirs! True there is Eastward drift but there are also Exe currents which are very poorly understood - as evidenced by the frequent closure of the Dawlish route!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My spelling is bad, Dyslexic and didn't use the spell checker :cry:

St Budeaux completely foxes the spellchecker - and for me quite right too!!

 

[jmc100]

It's amazing what "facts" can be used (and misused).

That fact is, yes, sea levels are rising, or rather (as you say) the southern half of the country is sinking. And it has been since the last Ice Age, c. 11,000 years ago. But the current rate of rising is measured in millimetres per decade. The Met Office has had to (rather bravely) stuck its head above the parapet and said the recent weather extremes are not to do with climate change. The senior climatologist, Professor Mat Collins of Exeter University, said in February that:-

‘There is no evidence that global warming can cause the jet stream to get stuck in the way it has this winter. If this is due to climate change, it is outside our knowledge.’

Any more than exceptional weather was in Brunel's era. There's always been exceptional weather, and every ten of fifteen years or so, it's sods law that extreme winter storms will coincide with tidal surges to produce mega-storms.

Just as the flooding in Somerset was made much worse by inadequate dredging, the situation in Dawlish was made worse by the failure to maintain the groins.

Groins? What groins? The groins are those planks of wood or strips of concrete slabs that run out to sea, spaced a few hundred yards apart all the way from Dawlish Warren to Dawlish and beyond. They've been there since Brunel's time, as a way of preventing longshore drift. Without them, the beach level is much lower, and storm waves can get much closer to the sea wall, with much more destructive energy.

The extra damage is inevitable, and it's got nothing to do with sloppy science, rising sea levels or climate change. In short, blaming global warming is a poor excuse, and it ignores the bleeding obvious. However much we'd all like a nice new railway line.

Yes, but those millimetres over 11,000 years mount up. Scientific studies have been carried out by various universities and scholars highlighting the problem of coastal erosion along the south coast. There is a reference to a thesis by Dawson somewhere in this thread which is very informative.

The southern route is back in operation and thank goodness it is. I have noticed there are many train movements along this stretch of track and I can understand why so much concern was shown by the councils and MP's who represent the constituencies west of Dawlish and in Cornwall but the same problems will still be there in times of bad weather and storm-force conditions. That is why an alternative route is more than a necessity in the short term.

Whichever route of the five alternatives is chosen will take a fair amount time to bring about so there is an immediate need for a positive decision to be taken by the powers that be. The south-west cannot be left without a rail service again. Although I am in favour of reinstating the old L&SWR route over Dartmoor, I also think there is a need for a resilient direct tunnel connection to be constructed between Exeter and Newton Abbot whilst keeping the coastal route operational in times of more favourable weather.

 

[LateThanNever]

Yes, but those millimetres over 11,000 years mount up. Scientific studies have been carried out by various universities and scholars highlighting the problem of coastal erosion along the south coast. There is a reference to a thesis by Dawson somewhere in this thread which is very informative.

The southern route is back in operation and thank goodness it is. I have noticed there are many train movements along this stretch of track and I can understand why so much concern was shown by the councils and MP's who represent the constituencies west of Dawlish and in Cornwall but the same problems will still be there in times of bad weather and storm-force conditions. That is why an alternative route is more than a necessity in the short term.

Whichever route of the five alternatives is chosen will take a fair amount time to bring about so there is an immediate need for a positive decision to be taken by the powers that be. The south-west cannot be left without a rail service again. Although I am in favour of reinstating the old L&SWR route over Dartmoor, I also think there is a need for a resilient direct tunnel connection to be constructed between Exeter and Newton Abbot whilst keeping the coastal route operational in times of more favourable weather.

The millimetres mount up especially when the Southern part of the country (the south west more than anywhere else) is sinking and so also at the same time the sea level is rising.
As you say "an alternative route is more than a necessity in the short term".

 

[yorksrob]

Any more than exceptional weather was in Brunel's era. There's always been exceptional weather, and every ten of fifteen years or so, it's sods law that extreme winter storms will coincide with tidal surges to produce mega-storms.

Even if that is the case (and I'm happy to bow to the prevailing scientific opinion), it strongly suggests that extreme weather events are a recurrent fixture.

Therefore, the policy of maintaining the existing main line with strengthened defences, whilst reconstructing a secondary route to act as a diversionary route, at the same time as improving local connectivity, still seems to be far and away the most advantageous way of improving services and ensuring that the West of England remains connected.

 

[LateThanNever]

Even if that is the case (and I'm happy to bow to the prevailing scientific opinion), it strongly suggests that extreme weather events are a recurrent fixture.

Therefore, the policy of maintaining the existing main line with strengthened defences, whilst reconstructing a secondary route to act as a diversionary route, at the same time as improving local connectivity, still seems to be far and away the most advantageous way of improving services and ensuring that the West of England remains connected.

Quite - even if the Dawlish route itself is impregnable the amount of flotsam will be dangerous. And that is the difference between protecting Dawlish and protecting the Dawlish railway line!

 

[jmc100]

Over the last couple of days I have been watching the Dawlish webcam and have noticed that even in mild storm conditions a vast amount of spray is washing over the sea wall and the railway line. Besides being hair-raising for the train driver and probably some of the passengers I am wondering where all the water that washes over the sea wall at high tide is going. Is it being trapped behind the sea wall or is there a drainage system that carries the water away to somewhere else?

 

[Rich McLean]

Over the last couple of days I have been watching the Dawlish webcam and have noticed that even in mild storm conditions a vast amount of spray is washing over the sea wall and the railway line. Besides being hair-raising for the train driver and probably some of the passengers I am wondering where all the water that washes over the sea wall at high tide is going. Is it being trapped behind the sea wall or is there a drainage system that carries the water away to somewhere else?

There is drainage, on the beach side at the bottom of the walls, so any water falling on the track bed will eventually make its way back into the sea, however, I expect a lot of these are now U/S

 

[jon0844]

20 minutes away now...

 

[jon0844]

Plenty of people out to watch, including staff! Nice and slow through too, presumably as we were manually guided through.

 

[PHILIPE]

I notice that some postings have started to appear on this thread which are more suited to the "The Dawlish Seawall" thread on the General Discussion Board.

 

[jon0844]

Ah yes, got mixed up there!

 

[muddythefish]

Dawlish report imminent according to this.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/07/14-dawlish-report-due-this-week.html

 

[yorksrob]

Dawlish report imminent according to this.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/07/14-dawlish-report-due-this-week.html

I look forward to seeing on what grounds the inland routes have been ruled out.