Diesels Under the Wires

[infobleep]

Anyway Network Rail will soon find ways of negating any energy savings. At Gatwick they have just commissioned the new platform 7 which means the all non stop trains to Brighton through out the day now brake from 90mph to 60mph down the gradient north of Horley as the points through platform 7 are speed limited and then the trains have to accelerate back to 90mph again up the gradient towards Three Bridges.

Does that mean the trains take longer or is it just that they have less padding in the service to cope with any delays? Given the short section it probably won't make that much difference.

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[Bald Rick]

Anyway Network Rail will soon find ways of negating any energy savings. At Gatwick they have just commissioned the new platform 7 which means the all non stop trains to Brighton through out the day now brake from 90mph to 60mph down the gradient north of Horley as the points through platform 7 are speed limited and then the trains have to accelerate back to 90mph again up the gradient towards Three Bridges.

On average they will brake less though, as they are more likely to get a clear run. I can't remember the last time I was on a Brighton fast that didn't slow down to a crawl on the approach to Gatwick.

Also, regen braking means the energy loss is reduced.

 

[Goatboy]

Regarding IEPs they might be better at the headline seat per km statistic, how much of that is achieved by squeezing the seat pitch to what appears to be less than airline standards?. The only draft layout I have seen indicated a pretty squashed and cramped shoe box internal layout with less seat pitch or wiggle room than a Suburban 4EPB or 308 emu of the 50s.

This isn't important as passengers only want a train which is both 'new' and 'electric'. As long as it meets this criteria nothing else is important and it's well worth spending many billions on.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If this is turning into another IEP-bashing thread I think it would be best for this to end right now. All the fine details of the IEP fleet have been debated on other threads which I believe have often ended up being locked. As nice as it would be to be able to have enormous seat pitches it would result in fewer seats on board at a time when the services are likely to be completely full a few years before the HS2 relief kicks in. I'm sure passengers would prefer having a slightly-less-comfortable seat over having no seat at all, especially when these trains will do runs which are up to eight hours long (King's Cross-Inverness).

 

[Goatboy]

I'm sure passengers would prefer having a slightly-less-comfortable seat over having no seat at all, especially when these trains will do runs which are up to eight hours long (King's Cross-Inverness).

Is it a common occurrence not to be able to get a seat reservation for an 8 hour journey to Inverness?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is it a common occurrence not to be able to get a seat reservation for an 8 hour journey to Inverness?

I'm not saying it is at the moment but with the current passenger number forecasts being so high it won't be long until it won't be easy to get a reservation on the southern end of that journey. Even then, it is not as if the current HST is carrying around nothing but air north of Edinburgh as leisure travellers like having a train without changes. The IEPs will be the last trains running ICEC before the capacity relief from HS2 and if they are not ordered to cope with the predicted passenger numbers before the opening of the new line then there will be a big problem. The HS2 forecast predicted that the rate of passenger number increase would decrease over time but there hasn't been much sign of that happening so far - we are 25% through the timescale of the report which said a new line would be required but we have had 40% of the passenger growth.

 

[Goatboy]

I suspect the predicted passenger numbers might not be quite as much as hoped once people realise there is less room inside than a quicker, often cheaper, Easyjet flight. One of the main benefits of rail over air, which is normally quicker and cheaper, is that you have more space.

Remove this and whats the point?

 

[NotATrainspott]

I suspect the predicted passenger numbers might not be quite as much as hoped once people realise there is less room inside than a quicker, often cheaper, Easyjet flight. One of the main benefits of rail over air, which is normally quicker and cheaper, is that you have more space.

Remove this and whats the point?

A train with EasyJet seat spacing will still have more passenger space available than the plane. For one, it's not possible to fit in more than 2x2 seating on carriages longer than 20m without encountering gauging issues on some lines, so there will always be more width available for passengers. You will then either have an aisle or a window seat, while a whole third of seats on EasyJet or Ryanair are terrible middle seats. Then there's the fact that long-distance rail travel is a less stressful option overall than these airlines as you don't have to be at the station any more than a couple of minutes before departure and you end up in the city centre rather than 50km outside at Stansted or Luton or Prestwick or wherever. Then there's the problem that the cost of air travel can only go up as it encounters higher and higher fuel prices which won't affect rail travel to anywhere near the same degree. The list goes on...

If this kind of thing were going to make a big impact it would have made it a while ago but it clearly has not and rail is going from strength to strength. Once the first few phases of HS2 open the domestic air market will enter something like a death spiral as is currently the case in China as there will then be no real reason why to fly rather than take the train other than for connecting flights to Heathrow. Even that will suffer from either the HS2 spur or the regular, fast and easy Crossrail/Heathrow Express change at Old Oak Common.

 

[infobleep]

I don't think flights will reduce. HS2 will be great for all the places it goes to, if you live near it. Not sure how much time will be saved if your going from Cornwall to Scotland. As much as I prefer trains I don't think air travel will be dead that quickly internally.

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[Class 170101]

I guess that depends how much capacity is available at airports and which is deemed more acceptable,

High Speed lines
or
Additional Runway capacity

If the latter isn't acceptable then I would suggest High Speed Lines may reduce the demand for internal flights and releasing runway capacity for International Flights.

If the latter is acceptable then it will depend many flights are required as to whether one runway is enough to satisfy demand.

 

[Kite159]

A train with EasyJet seat spacing will still have more passenger space available than the plane. For one, it's not possible to fit in more than 2x2 seating on carriages longer than 20m without encountering gauging issues on some lines, so there will always be more width available for passengers. You will then either have an aisle or a window seat, while a whole third of seats on EasyJet or Ryanair are terrible middle seats. Then there's the fact that long-distance rail travel is a less stressful option overall than these airlines as you don't have to be at the station any more than a couple of minutes before departure and you end up in the city centre rather than 50km outside at Stansted or Luton or Prestwick or wherever. Then there's the problem that the cost of air travel can only go up as it encounters higher and higher fuel prices which won't affect rail travel to anywhere near the same degree. The list goes on...

If this kind of thing were going to make a big impact it would have made it a while ago but it clearly has not and rail is going from strength to strength. Once the first few phases of HS2 open the domestic air market will enter something like a death spiral as is currently the case in China as there will then be no real reason why to fly rather than take the train other than for connecting flights to Heathrow. Even that will suffer from either the HS2 spur or the regular, fast and easy Crossrail/Heathrow Express change at Old Oak Common.

And you don't have to worry about what you can take on the train, i.e. liquids.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I don't think flights will reduce. HS2 will be great for all the places it goes to, if you live near it. Not sure how much time will be saved if your going from Cornwall to Scotland. As much as I prefer trains I don't think air travel will be dead that quickly internally.

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Once there are wires from Penzance to Inverness/Aberdeen and there is a suitable Bristol-Birmingham HSR line there won't be many journeys left where air will actually be better. The wonderful thing about designing HS2 to have a 400km/h alignment is that either a Stranraer or Holyhead tunnel to Ireland could result in air-competitive journey times once the tunnel is economic to build. As a result the last remaining narrow-bodied twinjet (737/A320) sized routes will die completely within the British Isles leaving only island-hopping flights to the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and all across the islands of Scotland. Eventually.

 

[DownSouth]

As a result the last remaining narrow-bodied twinjet (737/A320) sized routes will die completely within the British Isles leaving only island-hopping flights to the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and all across the islands of Scotland. Eventually.

It's more likely that short/medium-haul air travel will decline even without 'help' from high speed rail, and the timing is likely to be mostly independent from and rail developments. It will be gradual enough that people will simply adjust their concept of acceptable journey times/prices/availability.

 

[kermit]

Once there are wires from Penzance to Inverness/Aberdeen and there is a suitable Bristol-Birmingham HSR line there won't be many journeys left where air will actually be better. The wonderful thing about designing HS2 to have a 400km/h alignment is that either a Stranraer or Holyhead tunnel to Ireland could result in air-competitive journey times once the tunnel is economic to build. As a result the last remaining narrow-bodied twinjet (737/A320) sized routes will die completely within the British Isles leaving only island-hopping flights to the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and all across the islands of Scotland. Eventually.

Sounds lovely. But hauling us back to the point of the thread, it'll be disappointing to see a Voyager trundling away on the 05.00 Penzance to Inverness, calling at chef's seasonal selection of intermediate stations.

 

[starrymarkb]

Once there are wires from Penzance to Inverness/Aberdeen and there is a suitable Bristol-Birmingham HSR line there won't be many journeys left where air will actually be better. The wonderful thing about designing HS2 to have a 400km/h alignment is that either a Stranraer or Holyhead tunnel to Ireland could result in air-competitive journey times once the tunnel is economic to build. As a result the last remaining narrow-bodied twinjet (737/A320) sized routes will die completely within the British Isles leaving only island-hopping flights to the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and all across the islands of Scotland. Eventually.

Will that happen any time soon? At the moment with Easyjet I can do Exeter to Glasgow City Centre (Drive to BRS, Fly to GLA, Bus into City) in about 3.5hrs. (Cost about £90 for a day trip booked a couple of months ahead inc fuel/parking/bus) - XC by the way is 9 hours each way for a direct train with advances being £91.60 each way - so no chance of a day trip

As it stands HS2 isn't going to be good for connections from the Classic Lines. Getting a Future XC to Birmingham and HS2 as proposed from there will involve a considerable walk at street level. Also given the trouble to build HS2 between London and England's Largest cities I can't see a cross country high speed network happening.

Also would there be demand? The 3 daily Bristol to Glasgow Easyjet flights between them carry 450-550 passengers per day based on full A319 (156 seat) or A320 (180 seats) - That's maybe one and a bit train loads?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It's more likely that short/medium-haul air travel will decline even without 'help' from high speed rail, and the timing is likely to be mostly independent from and rail developments. It will be gradual enough that people will simply adjust their concept of acceptable journey times/prices/availability.

Remember that a lot of people who use internal/short-hop flights are doing to so connect to intercontinental services. BA recently started a Heathrow to Leeds/Bradford service, pretty pointless for competing with EC into the middle of London but ideal for long-haul passengers as it uses BA's Terminal 5 at LHR and is offered at minimal cost to long haul passengers, presumably to tempt them away from competing flights from Manchester.

For passengers travelling on a long haul flight, a connection like this is always going to be easier for them - baggage checked in, no connections in London or Birmingham, proof against delays (BA will be responsible if the internal flight is delayed, missing the connecting plane).

Only if the airlines will support HS2 and offer the same features for passengers on these trains will it completely shut down competition from internal flights.

 

[edwin_m]

Will that happen any time soon? At the moment with Easyjet I can do Exeter to Glasgow City Centre (Drive to BRS, Fly to GLA, Bus into City) in about 3.5hrs. (Cost about £90 for a day trip booked a couple of months ahead inc fuel/parking/bus) - XC by the way is 9 hours each way for a direct train with advances being £91.60 each way - so no chance of a day trip

As it stands HS2 isn't going to be good for connections from the Classic Lines. Getting a Future XC to Birmingham and HS2 as proposed from there will involve a considerable walk at street level. Also given the trouble to build HS2 between London and England's Largest cities I can't see a cross country high speed network happening.

Also would there be demand? The 3 daily Bristol to Glasgow Easyjet flights between them carry 450-550 passengers per day based on full A319 (156 seat) or A320 (180 seats) - That's maybe one and a bit train loads?

HS2 extended to Scotland will probably capture most of the London-Glasgow/Edinburgh market and if a high speed line was built from Birmingham to Bristol the same might apply as the journey time would also be under 3hr. That's a big if of course. Although Bristol-Glasgow may be a fairly small load, the same train could serve Birmingham with connections there to Manchester and Leeds, which between them ought to justify a reasonable service frequency.

There is always going to be some need for domestic flights - rail is never going to be time-competitive between Scotland and Devon/Cornwall for example, but that's probably an even smaller market than Bristol. Interesting thought about whether the airlines would allow checking of baggage onto HS2 so the journey time effectively becomes part of the check-in time - don't they do this between Brussels and Paris?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Interesting thought about whether the airlines would allow checking of baggage onto HS2 so the journey time effectively becomes part of the check-in time - don't they do this between Brussels and Paris?

I believe Continental (?) offered this service on the Gatwick Express.

 

[transmanche]

Interesting thought about whether the airlines would allow checking of baggage onto HS2 so the journey time effectively becomes part of the check-in time - don't they do this between Brussels and Paris?

You used to be able to do that on Heathrow Express.

At Paddington, the check-in desks were located where the sushi bar and Boots/M&S/Sainsbury's shops are now. Check-in at Paddington closed in about 2005, although by then it was only Star Alliance airlines - as the others had already pulled out.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

At Paddington, the check-in desks were located where the sushi bar and Boots/M&S/Sainsbury's shops are now. Check-in at Paddington closed in about 2005, although by then it was only Star Alliance airlines - as the others had already pulled out.

Do you know the reason? Under-use?

 

[transmanche]

Do you know the reason? Under-use?

My guess is that enhanced security procedures after 2001 affected the viability of the service.

 

[starrymarkb]

Only if the airlines will support HS2 and offer the same features for passengers on these trains will it completely shut down competition from internal flights.

Problem there is that HS2 will not connect directly into Heathrow. It'll involve a connection on Crossrail. Where Rail Code shares do work (Frankfurt, Paris) the station is under the Terminal with direct trains to/from the codeshare destination. Also luggage isn't checked on Rail based code shares.

 

[sprinterguy]

Incidentally, who actually own the NoL sets?

To the best of my knowledge, they remain owned by Eurostar UK, and are hired to SNCF.

 

[transmanche]

To the best of my knowledge, they remain owned by Eurostar UK, and are hired to SNCF.

So maybe Keolis and Eurostar have a cunning plan to use them, if their EC franchise bid is successful

 

[HSTEd]

The only way to avoid this is really to go to complete electrification in the Swiss mold as fast as physically possible.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Will that happen any time soon? At the moment with Easyjet I can do Exeter to Glasgow City Centre (Drive to BRS, Fly to GLA, Bus into City) in about 3.5hrs. (Cost about £90 for a day trip booked a couple of months ahead inc fuel/parking/bus) - XC by the way is 9 hours each way for a direct train with advances being £91.60 each way - so no chance of a day trip

As it stands HS2 isn't going to be good for connections from the Classic Lines. Getting a Future XC to Birmingham and HS2 as proposed from there will involve a considerable walk at street level. Also given the trouble to build HS2 between London and England's Largest cities I can't see a cross country high speed network happening.

Also would there be demand? The 3 daily Bristol to Glasgow Easyjet flights between them carry 450-550 passengers per day based on full A319 (156 seat) or A320 (180 seats) - That's maybe one and a bit train loads?

The logical HS-XC core is Bristol-Birmingham-Toton-Meadowhall-W/Yorks-Teesside-Newcastle with the services replacing the Birmingham-Newcastle/Leeds services on the current HS2 timetable. It would require a through station for Birmingham towards a captive Bristol station somewhere but because it would be able to carry intermediate passengers it should have justifiable loadings. The current XC services are so terribly slow and cramped that there will be a lot of suppressed demand which will then not transfer to air unless absolutely necessary. At the very least the minimum number of seats on a train will be about 550 so the price of tickets will also go down compared to what it is today on the cramped Voyagers. Then there's the efficiencies caused by needing only a fraction of the number of trains to run the same service with a considerably reduced fuel cost versus the thirsty diesels. Once the majority of the air passengers have switched to rail there won't be enough left to make a regular, fast air service economical which will then help to shift the remaining people onto high-speed rail. Unlike flying to Heathrow, where airline connections are essential, there aren't many people who are travelling Cross-Country who actually want to go to the airports rather than the cities at large.

HS2 is being built in what are probably the most politically controversial locations - north London and the Chilterns. Any other route would have nowhere near the same number of powerful noisy whingers and the people would also be more generally supportive of the economic benefits.

 

[Class 170101]

I wouldn't worry about Birmingham Curazon Street too much for cross country services. I would just use the Birmingham Interchange for these services with connections made to Curazon Street using London to Birmingham HS services.

I would also suggest a service from Bristol to Manchester on the HS lines, extending to Plymouth if they get that far with High Speed Lines.

 

[Surreyman]

With the current electrification programme underway and IEPS already on order, we should follow the French and invest in some Bi-Mode multiple units for routes that will be 40% or more 'under the wires'.

 

[thealexweb]

Earlier this passed me but I wasn't able to see it fully. If its standing in for a Class 380 it surely needs to be a two sets together?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G62733/2014/04/07/advanced

Anyway another example of DMUs doing the work of EMUs due to a shortage of DMUs.

 

[edwin_m]

You used to be able to do that on Heathrow Express.

At Paddington, the check-in desks were located where the sushi bar and Boots/M&S/Sainsbury's shops are now. Check-in at Paddington closed in about 2005, although by then it was only Star Alliance airlines - as the others had already pulled out.

Thanks for reminding me - I took a look at this operation back in 2001 but had completely forgotten about it. Checked baggage was carried in wheeled containers in a special compartment at the Heathrow end of each train - sealed against unauthorised access but not X-rayed until it got to Heathrow. There was a baggage tunnel from behind the check-in desks to the Hex platform.