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Ashford-Hastings Investment

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TheJRB

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Very interesting to hear this good news about investment being made in the Ashford to Hastings Marshlink line. I believe it's been mentioned elsewhere, but I believe it warrants its own thread.

From Kent Messenger:
Kent Messenger said:
High speed service to run between Ashford and Hastings from London after Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin attends rail summit

It is expected to start in five years and will slash journey times between Hastings and London.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin made the announcement at a rail summit convened by Hastings MP Amber Rudd, who has been campaigning for an improvement to the high speed service.
An artist's impression of a high speed train at Hastings Station

She said: “We are now firmly on the journey to vastly improved rail travel to and from Hastings.”

High-speed Javelin trains running between St Pancras and Bexhill via Ashford International will see a journey time between London and Hastings of just 68 minutes, compared to the present over 100 minutes.

Roger Blake, of campaign group Railfuture, welcomed the news. He said: “This is a phenomenal success which will stimulate economic growth in Hastings.”

Railfuture and the St Leonards and Hastings Rail Improvement Programme have been pressing for electrification of the whole Marshlink line between Hastings and Ashford International.

Currently, the electrified track from Hastings towards Ashford only reaches as far as Ore, the first station.

Network Rail plans to electrify the Marshlink line between Ore and Ashford, raise the line’s maximum speed and remodel the western junctions at Ashford to create a connection between the Marshlink line and High Speed 1.

At the rail summit, Miss Rudd presented Mr McLoughlin with a specially commissioned painting of a high speed train at Hastings station.

Mr Blake presented her with a model of a Javelin train, donated by Hornby Hobbies.

From the BBC:
BBC said:
Hastings hope for high-speed rail extension

Conservative MP for Hastings and Rye, Amber Rudd, said there was an "absolute commitment" to support extending HS1 from Ashford in Kent to Hastings.

An extension would mean a 78-minute journey time from Bexhill to Kings Cross and 68 minutes from Hastings.

Transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin said it would be "transformational".

Following a rail summit held in Hastings on Monday he said the case had been made very strongly for HS1 and the Javelin trains.

"It is looking like a fairly positive case," he said.

"What we are seeing is a regeneration of how important the railways are to our country."

'Regeneration of area'
Local authorities and transport user groups were also represented at the summit meeting, along with Southeastern and Network Rail.

"We got an absolute commitment from Network Rail and the secretary of state to support bringing High Speed One to Hastings," said Ms Rudd.

"It is going to be a phenomenal change for the regeneration of the area."

The shortest current journey time from Hastings to London Bridge is 85 minutes.

Labour's Jeremy Birch, leader of Hastings Borough Council, tweeted that the rail summit was "upbeat".

Network Rail announced on Monday it had assigned £2.3bn of investment to increase the number of seats available and improve stations in the South East from 2014 to 2019.

Among the pledges were improvements to the line between Hastings and Ashford, but any extension of HS1 would be a longer-term project.

Ray Chapman, from East Sussex Rail Alliance, said: "I am extremely optimistic that Patrick McLoughin has given a seal of approval to take this forward from where the project is today to actual delivery in 2019 and beyond."

At long last, a proper hope of electrification! I was under the impression that realignment of the track at Ashford would be too much of a big task to undertake but it looks like it may well happen (albeit probably after electrification has been implemented).
 
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bangor-toad

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Hi there,
Thanks for posting that. It makes a lot more sense that what I read yesterday...

I was looking for something completely different and came across a badly written article (which has now vanished!) that said that HS1 was going to extended to Hastings and that it would be a new 186mph+ alignment.

I really didn't believe it and I'm glad to see that the real plan has a basis in sanity!
Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

steamybrian

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In my opinion the only remodelling of Ashford West Junction is required is to double track the present single lead connection with the main line.
It will require doubling the line between Appledore and Ore to accommodate additional trains. That is in addition to realignment of the track.

Ore Tunnel has tight clearances so unsure what work is required to permit Javelin through.
Suggest close Doleham Halt-a remote little used station.

A far different scene from the 1960s when the line was nearly closed
 

Mikey C

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From the artist impression, will this definitely be OHLE rather than 3rd rail?
 

telstarbox

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Class 375 'Electrostars' operate most of the Southeastern's non-suburban services. They are good quality units but are worked intensively. How long are they expected to last (2040?) and will they be replaced by 3rd rail units, or will all the lines in Kent be converted overhead electrification before they retire?

This will influence whether the Marshlink is electrified using 3rd rail as infill, or AC. If it is done as AC, this will be fine for high-speed services, but the Ashford-Brighton services would either need to be run by diesels, dual-voltage electrics, or cut one way or the other at Hastings.
 

TheJRB

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In my opinion the only remodelling of Ashford West Junction is required is to double track the present single lead connection with the main line.
It will require doubling the line between Appledore and Ore to accommodate additional trains. That is in addition to realignment of the track.

Ore Tunnel has tight clearances so unsure what work is required to permit Javelin through.
Suggest close Doleham Halt-a remote little used station.

A far different scene from the 1960s when the line was nearly closed
I know that when it came to Shakespeare Tunnel, the Javelins were the first stock without end gangway doors to be cleared. This was because of the sliding profile doors instead of the plug type seen on the Networkers.

I wouldn't be sure about Doleham. It, along with Winchelsea and Three Oaks, has become much more popular in the last couple of years according to the statistics. It must be mainly used by walkers though and it certainly doesn't have a mass appeal. I'm not sure closing it would be the best way forward however.

Doubling would indeed be necessary. I presume the through Brighton service would be retained but operated by 377s.

From the artist impression, will this definitely be OHLE rather than 3rd rail?
This is something I've wondered; have the days of "third rail only when filling in" gone?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Class 375 'Electrostars' operate most of the Southeastern's non-suburban services. They are good quality units but are worked intensively. How long are they expected to last (2040?) and will they be replaced by 3rd rail units, or will all the lines in Kent be converted overhead electrification before they retire?

This will influence whether the Marshlink is electrified using 3rd rail as infill, or AC. If it is done as AC, this will be fine for high-speed services, but the Ashford-Brighton services would either need to be run by diesels, dual-voltage electrics, or cut one way or the other at Hastings.
Complete and utter speculation (and reasonably tongue-in-cheek), but if the Brighton service was transferred to Southeastern, the 375/6s could finally use AC! Or maybe there will be enough 377/2s, /5s and /7s to cover it. Maybe there will be another order of dual voltage stock... who knows! :D
 

JB_B

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Sorry to be a bit dim but how definite is this? Is it confirmed or is this just pre-election announcements of "aspirations".

Amber Rudd MP herself says ...

"during yesterday’s rail summit we achieved an ‘absolute commitment’ from Network Rail to improving our rail services in Hastings and Rye"

... which is good but not the same as a commitment to electrification.

and she goes on

"I am confident that with the support of local rail groups, commuters, councils, Network Rail and the Department for Transport we will make this happen. Today Network Rail will begin planning and developing their programme for Control Period 6 (2019-2024). Together we can work to raise the profile of our cause, a cause which will act as a significant drive to regeneration and a catalyst for expansion."

.. so it doesn't sound like it's a done deal - or have I misunderstood?


Another dim question? Would this be 3rd rail or OHLE - presumably the former?


It's lovely line to visit but I can imagine that it might not be too brilliant for commuters so I wish them every success with the campaign.

I remember not that long ago trundling across the Marsh in the Hastings Unit (which had turned out completely unexpectedly instead the usual 171) - a real trip back in time!
 

TheJRB

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Sorry to be a bit dim but how definite is this? Is it confirmed or is this just pre-election announcements of "aspirations".

Amber Rudd MP herself says ...

"during yesterday’s rail summit we achieved an ‘absolute commitment’ from Network Rail to improving our rail services in Hastings and Rye"

... which is good but not the same as a commitment to electrification.

and she goes on

"I am confident that with the support of local rail groups, commuters, councils, Network Rail and the Department for Transport we will make this happen. Today Network Rail will begin planning and developing their programme for Control Period 6 (2019-2024). Together we can work to raise the profile of our cause, a cause which will act as a significant drive to regeneration and a catalyst for expansion."

.. so it doesn't sound like it's a done deal - or have I misunderstood?
No, you've not misunderstood. It's not clear I must admit. I made the bit that stood out to me most bold (the bit about Network Rail planning to electrify the line). What is not said is whether they've got funding.
 

cle

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I've often thought this would make sense. Would Javelins provide the only service on the line, or would the Brighton trains (and odd shuttle) continue? I guess that would affect the electrification decision.

How intensively are Javelin stock used now? I understand that other routes are being expanded too...

This would leave Uckfield alone in the region. I wonder if that will be next. Interesting!
 

yorksrob

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In my opinion the only remodelling of Ashford West Junction is required is to double track the present single lead connection with the main line.
It will require doubling the line between Appledore and Ore to accommodate additional trains. That is in addition to realignment of the track.

Ore Tunnel has tight clearances so unsure what work is required to permit Javelin through.
Suggest close Doleham Halt-a remote little used station.

A far different scene from the 1960s when the line was nearly closed

Currently Hastings trains can only access platforms 1 and 2 at Ashford. Wouldn't they need some way of getting to HS1, which, as far as I'm aware can only use the old down side of Ashford station ?

Good news anyway. Been waiting for electrification for a long time.
 

ushawk

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Anyone want to hazard a guess where this will now end ? MPs for Bexhill and Eastbourne will now want it extended further, and to be honest, it does make a bit of sense to, especially for Eastbourne, as it has badly needed an extra train to London for some time and this could be the answer, especially as journey times would be pretty much the same.

The Brighton - Ashford service would still be able to run but with 377s, especially with the ones FCC will be giving to Southern which are dual voltage, this would also enable the small stations along the route to still have a service, a faster service at that.

The line will need to be doubled though to cope with this extra traffic, but it is good to see it gaining some investment as the line is rapidly growing and getting busier - most Brighton - Ashford services are full and standing !!
 

JB_B

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Anyone want to hazard a guess where this will now end ? MPs for Bexhill and Eastbourne will now want it extended further, and to be honest, it does make a bit of sense to, especially for Eastbourne, as it has badly needed an extra train to London for some time and this could be the answer, especially as journey times would be pretty much the same.

The Brighton - Ashford service would still be able to run but with 377s, especially with the ones FCC will be giving to Southern which are dual voltage, this would also enable the small stations along the route to still have a service, a faster service at that.

The line will need to be doubled though to cope with this extra traffic, but it is good to see it gaining some investment as the line is rapidly growing and getting busier - most Brighton - Ashford services are full and standing !!

I think Bexhill would be marginal (it's only 31 miles from Ashford so the HS1 timings from Bexhill to St Pancras could might well offer a modest improvement on the current West Coastway->Victoria timings) but is it big enough to justify the run-on from Hastings? Is there enough rolling stock?

I don't think there's anywhere further West along the coast where it would make sense to start from. By the time you get to Eastbourne you're looking at 42 Miles to Ashford.

The current timings from Eastbourne to Victoria are not dissimilar to St Pancras-Ashford-Margate but Margate is only 35 miles from Ashford.
 

JamesRowden

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I think Bexhill would be marginal (it's only 31 miles from Ashford so the HS1 timings from Bexhill to St Pancras could might well offer a modest improvement on the current West Coastway->Victoria timings) but is it big enough to justify the run-on from Hastings? Is there enough rolling stock?

I don't think there's anywhere further West along the coast where it would make sense to start from. By the time you get to Eastbourne you're looking at 42 Miles to Ashford.

The current timings from Eastbourne to Victoria are not dissimilar to St Pancras-Ashford-Margate but Margate is only 35 miles from Ashford.

I assume you meant East Coastway.

The 78 minutes journey time from London to Bexhill that would be available via HS1 might make the present 112 minutes journey from London Victoria irrelevant. It also requires just three trains to run with an average of 12 minutes turn around time at the termini. I think that running the HS1 service to Eastbourne would require an extra diagram but it might provide extra timetable reliability and it could effectively replace the London Victoria to Ore service between Eastbourne and Hastings by stopping at the same stations along that section.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think that this document gives the most detail into the situation of the potential upgrade: http://www.bexhillrailaction.org.uk/marshlink310314.doc

RAIL GROUPS WELCOME HIGH SPEED RAIL PLAN
31.3.14
Local rail user groups have welcomed a plan by Network Rail today that could see Hastings, Bexhill and Rye join the High-speed rail network.
The project, unveiled at a Rail Summit chaired by Hastings & Rye MP Amber Rudd, and attended by Secretary of State for Transport Patrick McLoughlin, would slash journey times from London to Rye to 55 minutes; Hastings to 68 minutes; and to Bexhill to 78 minutes. In order to deliver this, the railway line between Hastings and Ashford requires electrification and upgrading to accommodate high-speed ‘Javelin’ trains, running to and from London’s St Pancras International station.
Further work to develop technical and financial details of the scheme, which has a strong business case and local cross-party support, will be led by Network Rail, with input from Local Authorities, MPs and the South East Local Enterprise partnership. The service could be up and running by 2022.
Supporters of the scheme have also hailed its potential regeneration benefits.
 

JB_B

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I assume you meant East Coastway.

Urg - yes! Sorry. Thanks for the link - I'll take a look.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have to admit I'd guessed the time at around 1h45 via Lewes (based on the times to/from Brighton) - I'd not realised the directs were quite so slow.

Anyhow, I hope the project goes ahead.
 

Bald Rick

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Whoa, everybody, hold the horses.

There's a long, long way to go yet; it needs a lot of development as it is basically at the crayons stage, and alternatives need to be considered also. It will be interesting to see what happens if it turns out that there isn't a case after all, or that the alternatives are better value.
 

swt_passenger

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Whoa, everybody, hold the horses.

There's a long, long way to go yet; it needs a lot of development as it is basically at the crayons stage, and alternatives need to be considered also. It will be interesting to see what happens if it turns out that there isn't a case after all, or that the alternatives are better value.

I was just thinking earlier that 'blown out of all proportion' was the relevant expression. There's very little meat on these bones...
 

yorksrob

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Whoa, everybody, hold the horses.

There's a long, long way to go yet; it needs a lot of development as it is basically at the crayons stage, and alternatives need to be considered also. It will be interesting to see what happens if it turns out that there isn't a case after all, or that the alternatives are better value.

Fair point. But I'm inclined to think, if it's worthwhile sending Javelins up to Canterbury and Ramsgate all day, Hastings & St Leonards doesn't seem so far fetched.
 

Bald Rick

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Fair point. But I'm inclined to think, if it's worthwhile sending Javelins up to Canterbury and Ramsgate all day, Hastings & St Leonards doesn't seem so far fetched.

Agreed. Although for Canterbury and Ramsgate the track and electrification already existed. This requires, at the very least, a significant remodelling of Ashford west Jns.
 

MK Tom

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If this were electrified AC, it could at least give the potential for the 375/6's dual voltage capability to finally get used. I expect the Southern Brighton service would be run with 377/2s or 387s though.
 

59CosG95

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If this were electrified AC, it could at least give the potential for the 375/6's dual voltage capability to finally get used. I expect the Southern Brighton service would be run with 377/2s or 387s though.

387s? I thought they were all FCC-bound, allowing the 377/5s to return to Southern for use on WLL services to the WCML.
 

Bald Rick

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387s? I thought they were all FCC-bound, allowing the 377/5s to return to Southern for use on WLL services to the WCML.

Only for a year, then they head off to the GWML, MML, Transpennine (eventually), ECML, Edinburgh-Glasgow or Brighton Main Line depending which rumour you believe.

But I would bet my house that they will not end up on Ashford-Hastings.
 
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Chris125

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Another dim question? Would this be 3rd rail or OHLE - presumably the former?

Electrification on this scale is practically guaranteed to be OHLE these days, especially with conversion of existing 3rd rail lines looking likely.

Chris
 

Fincra5

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If they ever ran it to EBN as a comparison then that could be the end of working ORE trains... YAY :D
 

swt_passenger

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Ah right, I had assumed they would stay with the merged TSGN.

There's a table of cascades in the TSGN ITT that shows 116 x 110 mph vehicles (ie the 29 387s) leaving the combined franchise by 2018.

This cascade out was therefore known about on the same day we found out they were now 387s, having previously been referring to them as 377/8.
 

GatwickDepress

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If this ever goes ahead, and to be frank I'm a little sceptical as to whether remodelling the junctions at Ashford will be deemed viable, I would hope Ore retains direct trains along the East Coastway to Brighton and London Victoria as well as an enhanced Marshlink service (thank you morning ORE - DLH service) I use them regularly for a start, so I have a vested self-interest here!

Or if any planners plan on being retired due to grounds of ill health, how about suggesting a Hastings - Tonbridge - Ashford - Rye circular to your superiors? ;)
If they ever ran it to EBN as a comparison then that could be the end of working ORE trains... YAY :D
But don't you just relish waiting in that desolate headshunt? Especially on a miserable winter's night. :p
 

evergreenadam

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Fair point. But I'm inclined to think, if it's worthwhile sending Javelins up to Canterbury and Ramsgate all day, Hastings & St Leonards doesn't seem so far fetched.

The strategic case for electrification and extension of HS1 trains seems strong. The Hastings-Tunbridge Wells line was badly disrupted by landslips this winter and the longer route to London via Eastbourne cannot have been very attractive.

Hastings and St Leonards are also in need of regeneration and the journey time to London is currently poor, an extension of HS1 domestic trains would bring them into the orbit of London. Without it they will be at a severe disadvantage when compared to other coastal towns, even Whitstable and Herne Bay will soon have HS1 trains if the timetable recast goes ahead. The cheap house prices in Hastings would be a draw for London commuters and historic Rye would certainly be very popular with them, so there is potential to grow revenue. It would also give a boost to the tourist industry in the area. The Jerwood Gallery at Hastings would be as accessible as Margate's Turner Gallery, which is being heavily plugged to Londoners wanting a day out.

Bexhill is quite isolated from London's influence with the direct route to London being via Eastbourne and although not deprived could perhaps also do with an economic boost to offset the effect of its ageing population.

Cost of modifying the junction at Ashford and purchasing new trains to cover any extra diagrams remains to be seen. However there are lots of spin offs for the wider railway network from the project:
The line is an isolated diesel route, it will not be closed and does good business and will therefore need to be electrified at some point anyway. There would be savings from not having to maintain diesel stock at some distance from their depot.
Rolling stock released could be used to strengthen services elsewhere either to the Uckfield line where there is peak overcrowding or to East Anglia, East Midlands or Northern where there is a need for more diesel rolling stock to reduce overcrowding and where there are compatible fleets with other class 170s.
The existing two car diesel units are insufficient to meet demand especially on the Eastbourne-Brighton section of the Ashford-Brighton service and if replaced could be replaced with 3 or 4 car class 377s which would increase capacity and reduce journey times for local and Brighton passengers.
Demand would reduce on the Hastings-Charing Cross classic services, easing overcrowding and allowing these trains to focus on the middle distance Kent commuter traffic to Tonbridge, Sevenoaks etc. Currently not all London bound trains can call at Sevenoaks/Chelsfield during the morning peak as they are already too full.
There is spare capacity on HS1 domestic services, which should be utilised to justify the capital cost of building it in the first place and relieve peak overcrowding on the classic services. More Kent towns have been added to the HS1 domestic network over time, notably Sandwich, Deal and Maidstone and more are to join - Whitstable, Herne Bay etc. As the capital's employment growth shifts east they will benefit from new jobs at Canary Wharf, Stratford, Royal Docks etc via connections from Stratford International. The recently announced move of the Financial Services Authority from Canary Wharf to Stratford was also interesting - 4m sq ft of offices to be built at Stratford will mean lots more commuters will be able walk straight from their HS1 domestic train to the office.
 
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yorksrob

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There certainly seem to be plenty of potential benefits. Maybe put in a reversal siding to the west of Bexhill Central.
 

evergreenadam

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There certainly seem to be plenty of potential benefits. Maybe put in a reversal siding to the west of Bexhill Central.

Exactly, one would need to work out how far you could stretch HS1 domestic services along the coast before they become too marginal and are simply extracting traffic from other services. Final destination could be Hastings or Bexhill Central even if that meant additional cost of constructing a new siding.

Interesting that according to ORR stats usage at Bexhill almost doubled between 2004/5 and 2012/3, so there is a good market for rail there. Pathing beyond Hastings may be an issue, in addition to a presumed hourly HS1 service calling at Ashford-Rye-Hastings-St Leonards WS-Bexhill, there is the hourly slow service between Ashford and Hastings/Eastbourne serving the smaller stations on the Marshlink line plus there are two slow services per hour between Ore and Bexhill/Eastbourne.
 
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Clip

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Fair point. But I'm inclined to think, if it's worthwhile sending Javelins up to Canterbury and Ramsgate all day, Hastings & St Leonards doesn't seem so far fetched.

Ramsgate does have a depot and the facilities though does Hastings?
 
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