Merseyrail new stock

[Techniquest]

Do the FA not normally avoid any games at Anfield or Goodison on Grand National Saturday?

I meant it would have been worse this weekend just gone if the football had been, sorry that wasn't clear!

 

[Brian1947]

According to the posters, there's services which call at Central, Moorfields and Aintree only, with a 7.5 minute frequency of trains calling there (obviously including the normal Ormskirk trains) during the Aintree festival.

Thankfully I'm nowhere near Aintree for it, and in all fairness I daresay the Northern line would have been far busier if Liverpool had been playing at home (or indeed Everton) with football passengers to/from Sandhills.

There is no comparison between trains loaded with football supporters (which is basically a weekly event) and the queues that mass at Aintree after the last race. Football supporters use trains going to many destinations, and not just the city centre where most of the horse race fans want to head.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Should definitely get more trains, the 507s and 508s were all rammed on the Northern line on Saturday. The Wirral line lot were also getting very busy by 1100 too. All 3-car trains too, made for some less than comfortable journeys. As did the lack of facilities on the 507s and 508s, especially when you've got lengthy waits at places like Little Sutton and Capenhurst which are unstaffed!

Maybe they should just allocate more trains for service on Saturdays - I understand their stock provision is not that tight ....(more 6's needed maybe for peak Saturday workings) -many SE TOC's find now that even 8 car formations struggle at weekends at certain times - ..course it all costs money if you are edging up to the mileage bands ...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe they should just allocate more trains for service on Saturdays - I understand their stock provision is not that tight ....(more 6's needed maybe for peak Saturday workings) -many SE TOC's find now that even 8 car formations struggle at weekends at certain times - ..course it all costs money if you are edging up to the mileage bands ...

Another thing I've noticed is that the "hot spare" unit parked up in the weekday off-peak at Birkenhead Central isn't there at weekends.
So if the service goes to pot it's that much harder to recover.

 

[prod_pep]

Another thing I've noticed is that the "hot spare" unit parked up in the weekday off-peak at Birkenhead Central isn't there at weekends.
So if the service goes to pot it's that much harder to recover.

This is because that unit is used on a morning peak Chester line working (as part of a six car) and is split in the Birkenhead Central siding. Effectively, it is surplus to requirements for the rest of the day unless another unit fails. The evening peak service on the Chester/Ellesmere Port section has no six car workings.

One of the main problems at weekends is the lack of extra carriages provided outside the summer. In the last couple of weeks, there are signs that one or two six car formations on the Southport and Ormskirk lines are finally being provided when Liverpool or Everton are playing at home. Previously, nothing extra was offered which led to serious overcrowding.

The Southport - Hunts Cross services are six cars all day on weekends in the summer (roughly late June until late September) and have been for a long time. Crowding is still a significant problem in winter on the Northern Line though as Techniquest mentions and the drop in passengers outside the summer is certainly not 50% as the capacity reduction suggests. Last Saturday for example saw good weather and the service I rode back from Southport (around 16.30) was rammed. It's even worse in the other direction at this time too.

 

[baldyman26]

I've got to say, one thing Mersey rail do really well is Grand National weekend, in my opinion the staff aren't praised enough for a great job. Year after Year Merseyrail are responsible for getting thousands of race goers to and from Aintree, without anybody really thinking about it. I went last year, used the train and to be fair had no issues what so ever. Yes they are full, but the atmosphere is great, the queues move constantly, everybody plays by the rules, and if there are any issues, the staff deal with them straight way. What lets everything down is Liverpool Central, but that is a different issue which we can't do anything about.

 

[8J]

I'd have to second that about the Grand National. They do a fine job and hope that they do just as well this coming weekend!

 

[jamesst]

Another thing I've noticed is that the "hot spare" unit parked up in the weekday off-peak at Birkenhead Central isn't there at weekends.
So if the service goes to pot it's that much harder to recover.

The"hot spare" is generally at Birkenhead North Saturday's and Rock Ferry Sundays

 

[Techniquest]

No hot spare last Saturday, unless 507023, which was parked up on depot on Friday evening and still in the same spot around 0745 on Saturday morning, was it. Can't remember which one was the hot spare at Birkenhead Central on Friday, 508108 possibly but definitely a 508.

 

[FQ]

I think something like the 378 but 4 car and with toilets for them would be perfect.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think something like the 378 but 4 car and with toilets for them would be perfect.

The problem with 4-car (assuming 20m/C1 vehicles) units would be that would become the maximum length for any services due to platform lengths at the underground stations. Off-peak services would be 1-car longer but the peak services that currently run as 6-car would then only be able to be 4-car.

 

[Nym]

Can I have £1 every time someone says that 80m units are appropriate for Merseyrail?

 

[samuelmorris]

The 378s were originally 3-car anyway!

 

[Wolfie]

I think something like the 378 but 4 car and with toilets for them would be perfect.

All 378s are currently 4 cars and going up to 5.....

 

[pablo]

BR used to run 6-car trains generally.
Sometime after privatisation, amongst many changes introduced, was running 3-car trains more frequently, only beefing-up in the peaks.
This improved the service immensly. So I doubt there will be any inclination for the new stock to be anything other than 3-car formations.

 

[RobShipway]

Not sure if they are going to be going spare in the future, but Southern have 28 class 377/3 which are 3 car trains, would those not be the best option for Merseyrail?

 

[TDK]

Not sure if they are going to be going spare in the future, but Southern have 28 class 377/3 which are 3 car trains, would those not be the best option for Merseyrail?

That all depends on the CLI (Current Limit Index) of the 3 car 377's. I remember Southern having problems with them pulling too much juice from the system. I do not have a clue on the current available on Merseyrail. If it is low then they may not be able to run them in multiple.

 

[pablo]

Merseyrail had a traction current beef-up recently. Not my field otherwise.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure if they are going to be going spare in the future, but Southern have 28 class 377/3 which are 3 car trains, would those not be the best option for Merseyrail?

They are used by SN on their 10 car services in 3+3+4 formation. This doesn't alter with any future developments as far as I know, as we determined a few weeks ago there are far more 10 car diagrams than the 377/6 allow for...

 

[RobShipway]

They are used by SN on their 10 car services in 3+3+4 formation. This doesn't alter with any future developments as far as I know, as we determined a few weeks ago there are far more 10 car diagrams than the 377/6 allow for...

Ah, okay. I was not sure if the 3 car class 377's would become spare with all the changing around of stock that will happen between Southern and FCC over the next couple of years prior to the Class 700's being introduced on the Thameslink services.

 

[HSTEd]

BR used to run 6-car trains generally.
Sometime after privatisation, amongst many changes introduced, was running 3-car trains more frequently, only beefing-up in the peaks.
This improved the service immensly. So I doubt there will be any inclination for the new stock to be anything other than 3-car formations.

Well presumably if you were going for 6-car formations you would order enough stock to maintain current frequencies.

Having fixed formation trains makes things considerably simpler from an operational point of view.
They could literally just buy S7 knockoffs with only third rail pickups (no fourth rail).

 

[TheGrew]

If it was me I would opt for some dual voltage S stock too. I think for the metro services a mainline train is probably heavier and more power hungry as a result, let alone the potentially much faster acceleration)

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[fowler9]

Well presumably if you were going for 6-car formations you would order enough stock to maintain current frequencies.

Having fixed formation trains makes things considerably simpler from an operational point of view.
They could literally just buy S7 knockoffs with only third rail pickups (no fourth rail).

I would be interested to see how it would work out. They look alright, would be nice if they could squeeze in a toilet and I'm not sure the top speed would be high enough. As long as they don't have the heating permanently turned on full like the 507's and 508's seem to I would be happy.

 

[HSTEd]

Remember S stock is fully climate controlled.

I am not convinced there would be any problem with top speed, the 507/508s are not particularily fast accelerating by modern standards and the fully motored (I think it is anyway?) layout of the S7s will leave them standing.
The stops are so close together that I think they would come out on top - and with any proposed extensions replacing Pacers there will be no difficulty in beating those timings.

Average stop spacing over the system is only 1800m or so.

 

[fowler9]

Remember S stock is fully climate controlled.

I am not convinced there would be any problem with top speed, the 507/508s are not particularily fast accelerating by modern standards and the fully motored (I think it is anyway?) layout of the S7s will leave them standing.
The stops are so close together that I think they would come out on top - and with any proposed extensions replacing Pacers there will be no difficulty in beating those timings.

Average stop spacing over the system is only 1800m or so.

Yeah, very good points. The thing about the temperature was just a joke, even in the winter the current units are like stepping in to a sauna if you have winter clothing on. I find them just as bad in the summer with shorts and t shirt on. (Not a pretty sight )

 

[transmanche]

I am not convinced there would be any problem with top speed, the 507/508s are not particularily fast accelerating by modern standards and the fully motored (I think it is anyway?) layout of the S7s will leave them standing.
The stops are so close together that I think they would come out on top - and with any proposed extensions replacing Pacers there will be no difficulty in beating those timings.

This echoes my thought. A Movia train (similar to S stock) of 8x15m cars would be perfect for Merseyrail.

But beware, when I suggested this upthread it wasn't warmly received...

 

[fowler9]

This echoes my thought. A Movia train (similar to S stock) of 8x15m cars would be perfect for Merseyrail.

But beware, when I suggested this upthread it wasn't warmly received...

I wouldn't see a problem with that really. There is currently not enough space for everyone to travel comfortably. The routes Merseyrail operate are never going to get some kind of updated Desiro or similar which would be completely unsuitable. It would be nice if they could squeeze a toilet in to whatever they get though as I said before. Ha ha. That would of course take up a lot of space though and most people are making shorter journies.

 

[BantamMenace]

I'd go for an dual voltage 8x15m fixed formation with toilet design and give merseyrail a whole host of currently northern operated routes such as:

Extension to Preston
Extension to Wigan
Extension to Warrington Central
Bidston to Wrexham Central
LivLimStr to Wigan via StHelens
LivLimStr to Ellesmere Port via Warrington BQ

All the above 2tph

I'd also add a LivLimStr to Chester via Warrington BQ

Introduce new stock onto existing routes as you perform the wiring and platform extensions to allow 120m needed (if any, I'm not familiar with the area).

Tie in the order for a sufficient fleet to cover all the above with a follow on order (AC only)for northern's LivLimStr to Blackpool, Bolton Corridor, Southport to Manc, Leeds to York, Leeds to Selby (extended to Hull) and Harrogate Loop services to bring down cost.

Probably be time to replace northern's 321s, 322s and 323s at this stage as well so do that.

£2bn later Robert is your father's brother.

 

[HSTEd]

S7 is roughly 120m so I think 8 cars would possibly be counterproductive. (As I understand it the vehicles at the ends are longer and all are longer than 15m, so the S7 comes out at 117m).

As I understand Merseyrail does not have toilets on its trains currently so it seems a bad idea to try and shoehorn such a capability into them.
It would be better to concentrate on providing toilet facilities at stations that are currently unequipped.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Say Merseyrail went for the Movia, would there be enough room for the installation of catenary in the tunnel sections?