Electrification Sheffield - Doncaster & EMU Cascades

[ECML180]

This doesn't really fit in the Traction forum, because it's about electrification.
This doesn't really fit in the Infrastructure forum, because it's about EMU cascades.
Hopefully it's ok here!

So I've been thinking, the line between Sheffield & Doncaster has been mentioned of a 'missing link' in terms up the upcoming Midland Mainline electrification and so is due to be considered for electrifying soon. However, if you were to electrify it today you could run the Adwick - Sheffield services with EMUs. As it is a relatively short distance stopper-anything would suit it really and would be an upgrade compared to the pacers.

The other trains stopping at Adwick are already EMUs, running Leeds - Doncaster so it would be possible to change services to include the Leeds - Doncaster and a Leeds - Doncaster - Sheffield service. Assuming high speed EMUs were available and paths were too, there would be a possiblity of York - Sheffield services via Doncaster even if they were a few a day in the peak only.

Replacing the Adwick - Sheffield trains with EMUs would free up 2(?) DMUs for use elsewhere and a revamped service and extending the electrification through to Thorne North/South could probably free up more DMUs by leaving the services beyond Thorne as fast services and having a Sheffield - Doncaster - Thorne stopping service.

This suggestion totally ignores things which would provide additional benefit such as:

• Being an electrified route between ECML and MML
• Being a missing link for XC services too
• Other MML services such as Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham

Do you think it's viable to do? It does seem a fairly quick and easy way to free up DMUs and provide a service improvement(which might pacify the pensioners!).
Are there any other 'missing links' that could be done quickly and be quite useful? I imagine Leeds - Sheffield would be one.

 

[G0ORC]

This suggestion totally ignores things which would provide additional benefit such as:

• Being an electrified route between ECML and MML
• Being a missing link for XC services too
• Other MML services such as Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham

Do you think it's viable to do? It does seem a fairly quick and easy way to free up DMUs and provide a service improvement(which might pacify the pensioners!).
Are there any other 'missing links' that could be done quickly and be quite useful? I imagine Leeds - Sheffield would be one.

Speaking as a pensioner please don't patronise us - or the South Yorkshire group either.

You may have the benefit of being more youthful than us but knowledge gained from experience of 40 years in the industry is a valuable commodity and should not be underestimated. In today's world where anyone over 30 is considered to be almost geriatric (in the eyes of the media or advertising agencies anyway) we need to stand up for ourselves. If we don't do it, nobody else is going to do it for us.

Anyway, back on topic - I'd be interested to know where you think these EMUs would come from:-

1) New build - forget it, that only happens in the south-east
2) Cascaded - unlikely, much greater priorities in areas already electrified.

Pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you are talking about two units the only logical units to use would be some of the existing Northern 321/322 fleet (not sure what fleet availability is like) or some 321s from 'down south' and I imagine 'the south' won't really have any spare.

 

[anti-pacer]

Speaking as a pensioner please don't patronise us - or the South Yorkshire group either.

You may have the benefit of being more youthful than us but knowledge gained from experience of 40 years in the industry is a valuable commodity and should not be underestimated. In today's world where anyone over 30 is considered to be almost geriatric (in the eyes of the media or advertising agencies anyway) we need to stand up for ourselves. If we don't do it, nobody else is going to do it for us.

Anyway, back on topic - I'd be interested to know where you think these EMUs would come from:-

1) New build - forget it, that only happens in the south-east
2) Cascaded - unlikely, much greater priorities in areas already electrified.

Pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

New build happens outside the South East too. London Midland run new(ish) trains from Birmingham to Liverpool, and TPE run the same kind of stock between Manchester Airport and Scotland.

If Sheffield to Doncaster gets wired up, I see little point in DMU's trundling along between Adwick and Sheffield. There's got to come a time where the North will receive new stock, and if Northern MP's, PTE's, RUG's etc made enough noise to the idiots in Westminster, they'd have little choice but to listen.

Let's face it, DfT were going to provide us with brand new DMU's, instead favouring electrification. We need to stop being so defeatist, myself included, and stand up for what we deserve, and that's a railway fit for 21st century Northern England.

Back on topic, I would, in the event of available EMU's, run the Leeds-Doncaster stopper through to Sheffield. This would give a much better service and link places like Mexborough and Conisbrough to West Yorkshire and more importantly, Leeds.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why cant it use cadcaded emus? Leeds will need more so same type as those and itll be viable.

 

[bradders1983]

The current Leeds-Sheffield train ticket has NOT DONCASTER as the permitted route. Just an observation.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There are two ticket routeings for Leeds-Sheffield, 'Not Via Doncaster' and 'Any Permitted'. The former set by Northern, the latter set by East Coast.

 

[Mugby]

There are two ticket routeings for Leeds-Sheffield, 'Not Via Doncaster' and 'Any Permitted'. The former set by Northern, the latter set by East Coast.

Quite some difference in price too.

 

[G0ORC]

New build happens outside the South East too. London Midland run new(ish) trains from Birmingham to Liverpool, and TPE run the same kind of stock between Manchester Airport and Scotland.

True in the case you quote but LM are generally a Midlands/London operator.

I consider it highly unlikely that our South-East-centric politicians would give even a moment's thought to the likes of Northern getting any new build.

 

[ECML180]

Speaking as a pensioner please don't patronise us - or the South Yorkshire group either.

I apologise if you were unable to understand my humour.

Anyway, back on topic - I'd be interested to know where you think these EMUs would come from:-

1) New build - forget it, that only happens in the south-east
2) Cascaded - unlikely, much greater priorities in areas already electrified.

Pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

New build is unlikely, hence my use of the word 'cascaded' but there is always promises of EMUs of various classes from various sources. It is increasingly less likely that were will be any new built DMUs, except for in a few decades time which I suggest would be used to cover the few non-electrified lines.

If you are talking about two units the only logical units to use would be some of the existing Northern 321/322 fleet (not sure what fleet availability is like) or some 321s from 'down south' and I imagine 'the south' won't really have any spare.

I'm not sure either but I expect it would be reasonably easy to find EMUs, compared to DMUs.

 

[tbtc]

Doncaster to Sheffield is a pretty straightforward extension once the wires come to Sheffield (in 2020?) - I can't think of anything particularly difficult to deal with on it (other than TramTrains, if you include the Rotherham Central loop - but this has been planned for, I understand).

The problem is "where do you stop" - by wiring this route, you leave a short gap from Swinton to Moorthorpe that would be a huge improvement... there's three trains an hour that you could convert to EMU if you also did Meadowhall - Barnsley - Kirkgate - Leeds... there are a number of routes that you could tackle that would free up a decent number of 75mph DMUs.

There are going to be cascaded EMUs available in future, as we see the lines being electrified at the moment building a case for longer/newer trains (in the way that the initial use of 308s on the Airedale line saw them replaced by 333s once passenger numbers had increased sufficiently).

I consider it highly unlikely that our South-East-centric politicians would give even a moment's thought to the likes of Northern getting any new build

The newest trains in the UK are those running from Manchester Airport to Manchester Picadilly, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster and stations to Glasgow/Edinburgh...

...but we keep seeing complaints about how hard done by "the north" is.

 

[bradders1983]

There are two ticket routeings for Leeds-Sheffield, 'Not Via Doncaster' and 'Any Permitted'. The former set by Northern, the latter set by East Coast.

Indeed but the "default" is the former, there are very few through trains that serve Leeds, Donny and Sheffield (or the reverse), mostly early morning/late evening EMT workings.

If you get on one of these EMT train currently with a NOT DONCASTER ticket, what does the guard do? Excess it, or make you buy a brand new ticket at the full price? And would the same apply to Northern if such a route existed?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Excess fare (Off-Route) unless the Train Company operates a Penalty Fare Scheme (Northern Rail do not), though even then it is likely to be an excess fare.

A ticket does not limit you to using a direct service, a Leeds-Sheffield ticket would be valid to get an East Coast service to 'Donny' and a Transpennine Express service from there if it is routed 'Any Permitted'.

 

[bradders1983]

Excess fare (Off-Route) unless the Train Company operates a Penalty Fare Scheme (Northern Rail do not).

What would EMT do?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I believe EMT only have Penalty Fares between Sheffield and London, so it would be an excess fare.

 

[bradders1983]

Excess fare (Off-Route) unless the Train Company operates a Penalty Fare Scheme (Northern Rail do not), though even then it is likely to be an excess fare.

A ticket does not limit you to using a direct service, a Leeds-Sheffield ticket would be valid to get an East Coast service to 'Donny' and a Transpennine Express service from there if it is routed 'Any Permitted'.

I know that, the default option when I have bought the ticket though has always been the NOT DONCASTER ticket, thats all I am saying

 

[moggie]

The newest trains in the UK are those running from Manchester Airport to Manchester Picadilly, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster and stations to Glasgow/Edinburgh...

...but we keep seeing complaints about how hard done by "the north" is.

Yes, all 10 units as you we'll know which will be used for a circa 170 mile journey yet you conveniently forget to mention of the equally new class sub class of class 377 which will be used in the south to enable the 8 coaches from hand me down class 319 to 'transform' rail services in the North.

The south has so many units nowadays it hasn't even got the siding space to stable them all in some places. The North has new railway (well all 600 metres of it) with no available trains to run over it.

So yes the North is entirely justified in its complaints.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This doesn't really fit in the Traction forum, because it's about electrification.
This doesn't really fit in the Infrastructure forum, because it's about EMU cascades.

The NR plan is to electrify Sheffield-Doncaster and Swinton-South Kirkby by 2021, as part of the Electric Spine programme.
This is for strategic network reasons, and I doubt if a couple of local trains to Adwick came into the reckoning.
The objective is to link the MML with the ECML and Leeds, providing a set of route options.
It will complete an electric route from Glasgow/Edinburgh/Leeds to Derby/St Pancras and hopefully Oxford/South Coast by then.
It will also enable EMT to continue to work electric trains to Leeds (HSTs currently serviced at Neville Hill), and remember there will be an IEP depot in Doncaster.
It will also provide a springboard for potential wiring east of Doncaster and west of Sheffield, and local routes in Yorkshire.
Having said that, the status of the Electric Spine is a bit iffy, as the DfT and NR don't quite see eye-to-eye on the programme priorities.

 

[petersi]

The south has so many units nowadays it hasn't even got the siding space to stable them all in some places. The North has new railway (well all 600 metres of it) with no available trains to run over it.

So yes the North is entirely justified in its complaints.

To be fair the trains in the south are at capacity.
Its not the South's fault if the politians failed to order stock in time.
A lot of people in the south have the same over crowed commute as people in the north

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[transmanche]

A lot of people in the south have the same over crowed commute as people in the north

I'd say that far more people in the south have an overcrowded journey, compared to commuters in the north.

 

[Class 170101]

The NR plan is to electrify Sheffield-Doncaster and Swinton-South Kirkby by 2021, as part of the Electric Spine programme.
This is for strategic network reasons, and I doubt if a couple of local trains to Adwick came into the reckoning.

How far would the distance be from Moorthorpe to Church Fenton? I am surprised this is being missed out if NR are prepared to go as far Moorthorpe from Swinton to be honest.

 

[LateThanNever]

Doncaster to Sheffield is a pretty straightforward extension once the wires come to Sheffield (in 2020?) - I can't think of anything particularly difficult to deal with on it (other than TramTrains, if you include the Rotherham Central loop - but this has been planned for, I understand).

The problem is "where do you stop" - by wiring this route, you leave a short gap from Swinton to Moorthorpe that would be a huge improvement... there's three trains an hour that you could convert to EMU if you also did Meadowhall - Barnsley - Kirkgate - Leeds... there are a number of routes that you could tackle that would free up a decent number of 75mph DMUs.

There are going to be cascaded EMUs available in future, as we see the lines being electrified at the moment building a case for longer/newer trains (in the way that the initial use of 308s on the Airedale line saw them replaced by 333s once passenger numbers had increased sufficiently).



The newest trains in the UK are those running from Manchester Airport to Manchester Picadilly, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster and stations to Glasgow/Edinburgh...

...but we keep seeing complaints about how hard done by "the north" is.

Yea, but surely they really should have been short Pendolinos!?

 

[edwin_m]

How far would the distance be from Moorthorpe to Church Fenton? I am surprised this is being missed out if NR are prepared to go as far Moorthorpe from Swinton to be honest.

Somewhere around 10 miles, and probably not too difficult either. However the passenger service is very sparse, probably to the extent that the diagrams also work turns on other routes that won't be electrified. Nor is it particularly important as a diversionary route since there will already be two electrified options from Swinton to York.

No doubt it will be done eventually, but perhaps not until/unless electric freight takes off in a big way.

 

[ECML180]

The NR plan is to electrify Sheffield-Doncaster and Swinton-South Kirkby by 2021, as part of the Electric Spine programme.
[...]
Having said that, the status of the Electric Spine is a bit iffy, as the DfT and NR don't quite see eye-to-eye on the programme priorities.

I guess the question I'm asking is-are there any 'quick move' sections of rail that could be electrified and (with or without service changes) convert a group of services to electrical.

I'd say that far more people in the south have an overcrowded journey, compared to commuters in the north.

But then the people in the South have had the good service levels that encourage the mass consumption for a while which is much less the case up North. (Not that I'm blaming anyone for this!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I guess the question I'm asking is-are there any 'quick move' sections of rail that could be electrified and (with or without service changes) convert a group of services to electrical.

Not before 2021!
TP electrification is working east from Manchester, and MML working north from Bedford.
No point in wiring an isolated stretch before then.
NR is a bit busy with its 850 miles already authorised just now, too.

 

[snowball]

TP electrification is working east from Manchester

Manchester to Stalybridge is certainly being done first, but I thought it had been said that, so far as the rest of TP electrification is concerned, they would work west from York or Selby, so as to do the easy bits first and give more time to plan the more complex bits between Stalybridge and Leeds.

Edit: Some time ago somebody in another thread said that there would be some wiring this year near Selby, and I see now that that comes from page 42 of this:

Plans to deliver small lengths of electrified route between Leeds and York/Selby by Autumn 2014 to give some added operational and performance flexibility to LNE are being developed.

 

[Haydn1971]

Electrification of Sheffield to Doncaster is a bit of an oddball, in that yes, it makes sense to everyone, but has limited benefits in itself.

Thinking aloud....

What would use it in 2021 ?
1, It gives some degree of resilience to routes from north of Doncaster to London in the event of a closure on the ECML - hardly a huge economic case for that especially with the bi-mode SET units on the ECML
2, A new Doncaster-Chesterfield stopper ? Again that's not going to generate a great business case, even if extended to a Doncaster Airport Station or (Northern?)
3, MML extensions to Leeds/York via Doncaster (EMT) to boast the overcapacity XC services - I like this bit
4, Electric Freight to Donnie from the MML

Adding the extra bit between Moorthorpe and Swinton at the same time makes a little more sense, creating in addition to the above the following opportunities;
5, Opens up EMU options for stopper and semi-fast local services between Derby/Nottingham to Wakefield/Leeds (Northern)
6, Opens up a much more useful MML shorter and faster extension to Leeds (EMT)

I feel that the case would be much stronger if the Hope Valley Line was also wired up at the same time as Sheffield-Doncaster and Swinton-Moorthorpe, giving the following in addition to the above
7, Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Nottingham EMU (EMT)
8, Airport-Manchester-Sheffield-Doncaster-Airport EMU (TPE)
9, A quieter cross pennine electric freight route

But all this opens up questions about the future of TPE to Cleethorpes, are there enough EMU's to cascade in time and what services get new EMU's

Also, what comes after this package of overhead wiring ?

 

[Bald Rick]

In 2021 it enables most cross country services on the NE-Reading axis to go over to electric, once Grand Jn to Derby is done.

 

[IKBrunel]

I apologise if you were unable to understand my humour.

50% of all jokes don't sound as good via email or forums. that's why we have to put smileys all over the internet to make up for lack of body language.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Manchester to Stalybridge is certainly being done first, but I thought it had been said that, so far as the rest of TP electrification is concerned, they would work west from York or Selby, so as to do the easy bits first and give more time to plan the more complex bits between Stalybridge and Leeds.

Edit: Some time ago somebody in another thread said that there would be some wiring this year near Selby, and I see now that that comes from page 42 of this:

Yes I remember that, but it was well before the CP5 plans were confirmed.
The current milestones have all the TP East work running March 2016 to Dec 2018.
I think we can be pretty sure there won't be any wires up this year.