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Help with unpaid fare dispute
- Thread starter Mrcommonsense
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I have not had time to read through every post on this thread so apologies if this point has already been covered.
As the OP is obviously aware monthly tickets are generally not available from TVMs, are no longer available on train, and are not available from the mobile ticket sellers armed with avantix machines at certain barriers. That said, if a passenger desires a monthly, and they board at a station without facilities to do so, they must purchase a single ticket to cover them for the initial journey made. This single will be refunded once the monthly is purchased. In the good old days the single was issued as a part exchange single.
It seems to be the custom & practise at Arriva Trains Wales not to follow the above procedure. There may be many reasons for this from saving paperwork to a genuine belief that it may be quicker for the passenger. Certain passengers also object to making two transactions esp. if they are paying with a card. That said it is in the passenger's interest to hold a valid ticket as this sorry tail emphasises.
NB I do note the fact that the OP's wife was unable to purchase even a single ticket from either the TVM (defective) prior to travel nor on the train (too busy).
As an aside how soon in advance can you purchase a monthly renewal? Also, it is possible to get a season ticket for any length from a month to a year and this can in fact work out a lot cheaper in the long run - experts on the forum will advise the best combinations to get. Depending on your wife's employer she may be able to get an interest free annual season ticket loan - this would be paid back via her payroll office every month. My TOC (ScotRail) offers season tickets online and these can be posted out or collected from the TVMs.
Anyway, good luck in your endeavours.
As the OP is obviously aware monthly tickets are generally not available from TVMs, are no longer available on train, and are not available from the mobile ticket sellers armed with avantix machines at certain barriers. That said, if a passenger desires a monthly, and they board at a station without facilities to do so, they must purchase a single ticket to cover them for the initial journey made. This single will be refunded once the monthly is purchased. In the good old days the single was issued as a part exchange single.
It seems to be the custom & practise at Arriva Trains Wales not to follow the above procedure. There may be many reasons for this from saving paperwork to a genuine belief that it may be quicker for the passenger. Certain passengers also object to making two transactions esp. if they are paying with a card. That said it is in the passenger's interest to hold a valid ticket as this sorry tail emphasises.
NB I do note the fact that the OP's wife was unable to purchase even a single ticket from either the TVM (defective) prior to travel nor on the train (too busy).
As an aside how soon in advance can you purchase a monthly renewal? Also, it is possible to get a season ticket for any length from a month to a year and this can in fact work out a lot cheaper in the long run - experts on the forum will advise the best combinations to get. Depending on your wife's employer she may be able to get an interest free annual season ticket loan - this would be paid back via her payroll office every month. My TOC (ScotRail) offers season tickets online and these can be posted out or collected from the TVMs.
Anyway, good luck in your endeavours.
ValleyLines142
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I also must admit I haven't had chance to read every single post in this thread either.
Woo! My local line, so I should know the feeling!
The machine at Waun-gron Park is fairly new; I'd say it has only been there for about six months or so, so it really shouldn't be breaking all the time!
The only problems I tend to have there is that when I pay by card, it physically doesn't allow me to insert my card, as there is a silver catch which doesn't release.
What service from Waun-gron did your wife travel on? I have never been on a City Line service where the conductor has not been able to come round because it has been too busy. Even on packed services such as the 0812 and 0842 to Cardiff (the former being just a single 153!), the conductor has always managed to come round and sell tickets in the eight minute journey time to Cardiff Central (twelve minutes to Queen Street).
Of course, I'm certainly not saying your wife is lying.
Unfortunately, I can only follow from what everyone else has said in that the fact your wife left the queue does show intent to avoid paying the fare. It is a shame, as judging by your descriptions your wife is a honest human being who pays all the time. I do also unfortunately think that whoever is dealing with this case will not accept the fact that she has bought her monthly season tickets in the past.
However, the argument that could strike here is how long a passenger is reasonably (notice my emphasis on 'reasonably'!) expected to wait in a queue. Cardiff Queen Street is currently going through major redevelopment works and with it being a busy station anyway (currently the second busiest in Wales after Cardiff Central), one would have thought that there would be plenty of staff situated there in order to sell tickets in a reasonable period of time.
I exited Cardiff Queen Street about three weeks ago to do a spot of shopping and I was waiting nearly fifteen minutes to buy a ticket, which only a matter of seconds later I was going to insert into the barriers and never see again. Luckily it was my day off and I wasn't in a rush, but if I had to be somewhere or catch a connecting train then I'd have had it. It didn't totally ruin my life but fifteen minutes is a little extreme.
In your wife's instance, how long was she waiting in the queue before she decided to leave?
I thought the same thing as well, although I don't think Arriva offer this policy.
Saying that, I use First Great Western more than I use Arriva services now anyway, and times have changed. There were certainly no Revenue Protection Inspectors when I travelled daily between Waun-Gron Park and Penarth between 2008 and 2012.
I'm not a expert in prosecution fields; there are other members on the forum who are FAR more knowledgeable in such departments, but I honestly cannot see where this will end. Of course, it is obvious that your wife shouldn't have left the queue, but then how long is a passenger reasonably expected to wait in a queue?
With twelve trains an hour coming from each direction (that's a train every five minutes through Queen Street), and the Cardiff Bay shuttle, from all over the Valleys, the Vale of Glamorgan and the suburbs of Cardiff, then it would be utterly ridiculous for there to be only one person selling tickets. In fairness when I've passed through, even as late as 7pm, there are still at least three sellers.
Whatever happens, please let us know the outcome. My best wishes to you both, and hope that the case is solved amicably.
Woo! My local line, so I should know the feeling!
Mrcommonsense said:
The machine at Waun-gron Park is fairly new; I'd say it has only been there for about six months or so, so it really shouldn't be breaking all the time!
The only problems I tend to have there is that when I pay by card, it physically doesn't allow me to insert my card, as there is a silver catch which doesn't release.
Mrcommonsense said:
What service from Waun-gron did your wife travel on? I have never been on a City Line service where the conductor has not been able to come round because it has been too busy. Even on packed services such as the 0812 and 0842 to Cardiff (the former being just a single 153!), the conductor has always managed to come round and sell tickets in the eight minute journey time to Cardiff Central (twelve minutes to Queen Street).
Of course, I'm certainly not saying your wife is lying.
Unfortunately, I can only follow from what everyone else has said in that the fact your wife left the queue does show intent to avoid paying the fare. It is a shame, as judging by your descriptions your wife is a honest human being who pays all the time. I do also unfortunately think that whoever is dealing with this case will not accept the fact that she has bought her monthly season tickets in the past.
However, the argument that could strike here is how long a passenger is reasonably (notice my emphasis on 'reasonably'!) expected to wait in a queue. Cardiff Queen Street is currently going through major redevelopment works and with it being a busy station anyway (currently the second busiest in Wales after Cardiff Central), one would have thought that there would be plenty of staff situated there in order to sell tickets in a reasonable period of time.
I exited Cardiff Queen Street about three weeks ago to do a spot of shopping and I was waiting nearly fifteen minutes to buy a ticket, which only a matter of seconds later I was going to insert into the barriers and never see again. Luckily it was my day off and I wasn't in a rush, but if I had to be somewhere or catch a connecting train then I'd have had it. It didn't totally ruin my life but fifteen minutes is a little extreme.
In your wife's instance, how long was she waiting in the queue before she decided to leave?
I thought the same thing as well, although I don't think Arriva offer this policy.
Saying that, I use First Great Western more than I use Arriva services now anyway, and times have changed. There were certainly no Revenue Protection Inspectors when I travelled daily between Waun-Gron Park and Penarth between 2008 and 2012.
I'm not a expert in prosecution fields; there are other members on the forum who are FAR more knowledgeable in such departments, but I honestly cannot see where this will end. Of course, it is obvious that your wife shouldn't have left the queue, but then how long is a passenger reasonably expected to wait in a queue?
With twelve trains an hour coming from each direction (that's a train every five minutes through Queen Street), and the Cardiff Bay shuttle, from all over the Valleys, the Vale of Glamorgan and the suburbs of Cardiff, then it would be utterly ridiculous for there to be only one person selling tickets. In fairness when I've passed through, even as late as 7pm, there are still at least three sellers.
Whatever happens, please let us know the outcome. My best wishes to you both, and hope that the case is solved amicably.
I have read the whole thread. On a personal level, I feel sorry for the wife and husband, and don't believe for one minute that she would have intentionally fare dodged.
HOWEVER, as the husband now realises, she has committed an offence by leaving the queue.
Dealing with the issue will run a lot smoother if the above can be acknowledged.
To confirm two things, does your wife still have:
-a monthly season ticket that ended the day before the incident (or the Friday before, if incident was a Mon).
-a monthly season ticket issued on the date of the accident?
If so, copies of both (and the photocard) should be sent, along with a suitable letter. This letter ought to state the full facts, and include an apology.
If I were the deciding party, I would probably just ask for the £2.30 paying, but I suspect the reality will be a settlement request, potentially of say £100.
If so, this ought to be promptly paid, and then a complaint made to the Managing Director of ATW.
HOWEVER, as the husband now realises, she has committed an offence by leaving the queue.
Dealing with the issue will run a lot smoother if the above can be acknowledged.
To confirm two things, does your wife still have:
-a monthly season ticket that ended the day before the incident (or the Friday before, if incident was a Mon).
-a monthly season ticket issued on the date of the accident?
If so, copies of both (and the photocard) should be sent, along with a suitable letter. This letter ought to state the full facts, and include an apology.
If I were the deciding party, I would probably just ask for the £2.30 paying, but I suspect the reality will be a settlement request, potentially of say £100.
If so, this ought to be promptly paid, and then a complaint made to the Managing Director of ATW.
Flamingo
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On what grounds should the OP complain? That the RPI had the affront to catch a fare dodger?
Others on the thread have said that the TVM is new at the OP's station, and that it is VERY unusual for a guard not to go through that train.
For the ticket type the OP wanted, Queen Street was the first opportunity regardless, and this was not taken - that is the offence. I do not have your confidence that this was the first time this has happened, and was not intentional.
Advising the OP to complaina to ATW for being caught (because whatever spin is put on it, that's the ugly reality of it) is just unbeleviable.
Others on the thread have said that the TVM is new at the OP's station, and that it is VERY unusual for a guard not to go through that train.
For the ticket type the OP wanted, Queen Street was the first opportunity regardless, and this was not taken - that is the offence. I do not have your confidence that this was the first time this has happened, and was not intentional.
Advising the OP to complaina to ATW for being caught (because whatever spin is put on it, that's the ugly reality of it) is just unbeleviable.
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He knows vouchers will probably just be given out as a blanket respon se.
So we are now at the stage where you can get caught, pay the fine/penalty/whatever then complain and get vouchers back, presumably for the inconvenience caused by getting caught?
hock:Quite unbelieveable.
So we are now at the stage where you can get caught, pay the fine/penalty/whatever then complain and get vouchers back, presumably for the inconvenience caused by getting caught?
Quite unbelieveable.
No, we're not. The trouble is is that 34D often advocates writing to the md or some such because sometimes they will just palm off vouchers in this sort of instance where its a bit murky to save the hassle.
Their advice at times is very contradictory in both this and the fares section from what I can see and remember.
For me, in this case the TOC has them bang to rights as they left the queue to pay at their final destination but people will prod and poke to try and get out of any sort of case and often on spurious grounds and for me,writing to the md is such an action to facilitate that.
Surely you agree that (regardless of the law) it is very harsh and displaying bad customer service to do anything other than to acknowledge that the ticket purchased at lunchtime was acceptable for the morning journey?
transmanche
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Unfortunately there are some railway employees who seem to see things only in black and white. It seems they believe that customer service is simply "giving in" - and they are keen to see passengers prosecuted even for technical breaches of the bylaws.
Such attitudes would not be tolerated in other industries.
transmanche
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Do you not see a difference in this situation? This wasn't a simple 'fare dodge'. This was a customer who wanted to buy a monthly season ticket.
And some people think that any one who 'made a mistake, just this once etc' should be let off!
We will never agree on this so why bring it up again!
Personal responsibility and personal accountability!
transmanche
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Along with a sense of proportion and large measure of reasonableness.
Well as much as you may like to think otherwise you are both wqrong with regards to the facts in this case.
And to try and suggest I have no CS is pretty poor considering that you both don't know me and both don't know how much I instill such things into my staff and follow and excel at myself. CS is something I pride myself on.
People leaving a station after not purchasing a ticket for their journey is a black and white case. No matter how you try to dress it up.
To say otherwise is reprehensible and also very poor form.
Maybe rather than trying to find an out for the passenger in such a case you should try and give constructive advice sticking to the facts.
Its people like yourselves who are looking for a way round these issues that causes the most problems for the railway that you apparently care about.
It's not black and white when you consider the queue.....
Actually yes I do but the problem is where do you draw the line?
I agree that in this case, on the evidence (if totally correct), then a simple warning would be sufficient but how often have people joined then queue but then walked off without paying because it doesnt matter/ their time is more important/ I will get a ticket later etc etc?
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Ok then mr smarty pants, can you please point me to the relevant information that clearly states that you may leave a queue at the final point in your journey where you can purchase a ticket.
Or that you may purchase a ticket for your journey later in the day after taking such a journey
Once you find that information then case closed.
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transmanche
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Really?
I didn't make any comment about you.
I'm pleased to hear that. So let's put it to the test.
OK. So the customer is a regular monthly season ticket holder but was unable to purchase any ticket at the station of origin (non-functioning ticket machine) or en-route (conductor unable to get through a crowded train). The train was late arriving at the destination station, where again the customer was unable to purchase any ticket from the machine. There is only one ticket office position selling monthly tickets, so there is a long queue. How long should the customer wait in the queue?... 10 mins?... 20 mins...?... an hour? But rather than using revenue staff to queue-bust, the TOC prefers to try and catch-out anyone who leaves the queue - even though they will return later to purchase their monthly season in order to make their homeward journey.
And you think the appropriate response is to prosecute them? If that really is the case then I no, I don't actually think you're as good at customer service as you believe you are. The appropriate response in this situation is to advise the customer of other options to renew a monthly season (e.g. buying in advance of expiry on the homeward journey, or by phone/online/post). Then advise the customer that in future they must purchase a ticket for the journey made before leaving the station - and if they are unable to purchase a monthly season, that they should purchase a single and the cost will be offset against a monthly season if purchased later the same day. That is good customer service: treating each case on its merits and acting accordingly. Not using prosecution (or the threat of prosecution) as a first resort.
The company should think about how they can make all passengers aware of those other options for renewing a monthly season ticket. Then they need to repair the ticket machine and upgrade it so it can sell monthly seasons. They could even look at alternatives such as selling season tickets at PayPoint outlets, et al.
I'm not trying to give an 'out', I'm expressing my opinion.
I believe that it's time the whole area of non-payment of fares was decriminalised: in the same way that parking and many other traffic offences have been decriminalised. (And how non-payment of TV Licences is likely to be decriminalised soon.) With a proper, independent appeals service. I believe that TOCs relay on prosecutions (or the threat of prosecution) rather than sort out the obvious deficiencies in ticket retailing.
But that's for another thread.
Well yes, I do want a "way round" these issues... by making the improvements I suggested above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's exactly what I meant about seeing things in black and white. The facts of this case are very different to someone making a one-off journey who walks straight out of the station.
God this is stupid.
Did the passenger fail to purchase a ticket at the first available option given that the machine at starting station was OOU and no guard was available?
Did the passenger then leave the queue at the first available opportunity to purchase said ticket?
If your answer to both of those questions is yes( which it is as given by the op) then that is how it is black and white.
If you fail to understand this then you should not possibly comment.
Did the passenger fail to purchase a ticket at the first available option given that the machine at starting station was OOU and no guard was available?
Did the passenger then leave the queue at the first available opportunity to purchase said ticket?
If your answer to both of those questions is yes( which it is as given by the op) then that is how it is black and white.
If you fail to understand this then you should not possibly comment.
transmanche
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Thank you for proving my point!
What you're doing is looking at the strictest interpretation of the bylaws to decide how best to prosecute the customer. How about looking at a resolution that doesn't involve prosecution? One that is fair, reasonable and proportionate to the situation?
So you didn't answer my questions.
I never mentioned anything about prosecution just that the passenger has erred and there isn't really anything else a TOC can do about it.
Maybe ill leave a station next week and tell them ill pay them later in the day/week/month.
Is that ok with you?
transmanche
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How about you respond to my points in post #80 first?
There's plenty they can do about it. See post #80.
Straw man argument. Let's keep to the facts of this situation shall we? As I stated in post #80; the resolution I proposed was the appropriate resolution for that situation. I even put in bold to make it easier for you see.
The factor which makes this not black and white is the fact that there was a long queue to buy the season ticket on arrival. We don't know how long the OP queued. Considering that the train arrived late, having to delay oneself further must be particularly galling. If they left the queue after 5 minutes then I'd agree they haven't tried enough. Unless the queue was 25 people long and in that 5 minutes only one person had been served. Extrapolation suggests that a wait of over an hour could be involved. There's so much we don't know it is clearly not a black or white case.
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