Notice of intention to prosecute

[kwerty]

Hi all

I have received a notice of intention to prosecute but I think it is unfair. How should I go about dealing with it?

I frequently but irregularly commute from Warwick to Birmingham, somewhere between 1-4 days a week so it isn't cost effective to buy season tickets. I also occasionally run to or from other stations further up the line for a bit of exercise so sometimes buy a return ticket from the closer station plus a single to 'top-up' the return section back to Warwick.

- Tuesday night I travelled from Brum to Hatton on a single ticket and ran home.
- Wednesday morning I ran to Hatton and got the train from there to Brum. Hatton is unmanned and the conductor didn't come through the train (presume it was because it was running late) so I bought a return ticket at the barrier at Brum. I was now running late due to the late train and the queue for tickets at the barrier.
- Wednesday evening I'd been running late all day so legged it to the station to get the train home. Went through the barrier using my ticket from Brum to Hatton and got on the train. Only remembered when I'd sat down that I wasn't running this evening so needed to buy the top up single from Hatton to Warwick.
-didn't see the conductor at any time on the train so from that point I had no opportunity to buy a ticket
- RPO at Warwick stopped me. I tried to explain all the above but he decided to caution me and fill in lots of paperwork.
- admittedly my explanation wasn't helped as I accidentally gave him my ticket from the previous day (Tuesday evening) which of course wasn't valid. Though as soon as he mentioned this I did provide him with the correct Wednesday evening ticket.

I do understand that at Warwick I didn't have a valid ticket and that the rules could be interpreted to say that I must buy tickets for the whole trip from Brum to Hatton and Hatton to Warwick prior to getting on the train at Birmingham. However -
a) I made a genuine mistake by forgetting to buy the 'top-up' from Hatton to Warwick before getting on the train as I usually do just for convenience. But I did have a ticket that was valid from when I passed through the barriers at Brum right up until I didn't get off the train at Hatton - the train did stop in Hatton so there is no issue of incorrect use of split tickets. Once on the train I had no opportunity to rectify the mistake. There was no conductor to sell me a ticket, and even if I had got off at Hatton and got back on a later train I still would have had no opportunity to buy a ticket (unmanned station) so the result would have been the same - arriving in Warwick with no ticket from Hatton.
b) the pricing and ticketing structure makes it cheaper to buy a return plus a 'top-up' single rather than two singles for the outward and return journeys. This surely means that it should count as two separate journeys (Brum to Hatton & Hatton to Warwick) rather than one journey. So I effectively started my second journey at Hatton and as I had no opportunity to buy a ticket either there or on the train I committed absolutely no offence at all. Is this a valid assertion?
c) because I initially showed another ticket from Brum to Hatton the RPO seemed to infer that I regularly evade the fare from Hatton to Warwick by getting tickets for shorter journeys. I use a GPS watch to map my runs so can prove this is not the case.
d) If needed I can provide bank statements showing frequent ticket purchases at Warwick station over the last 3 years.
d) During the lengthy chat with the RPO I saw other people on later trains being challenged by the RPOs but let out with no further questions when they said they got on at unmanned stations and there was no conductor selling tickets. So if I had been economical with the truth and just said I had got on at Hatton I would have been let out too!

Advice on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated. I am of course willing to pay the £2.10 for the missing fare

 

[yorkie]

Your journey was from Birmingham to Warwick, and the correct ticket(s)/excess should have been purchased at Birmingham.

If you want to count it as two journeys, then I would argue you need to exit the station at Hatton and re-enter the station. You did not do so. So the lack of facilities at this intermediate station is irrelevant.

A prosecution for a a Byelaw 18 offence should be straightforward and not easy to defend against. A prosecution for a Regulation of Railways Act offence would be less straightforward, so if you appointed a good enough solicitor, you might have a chance...

It is possible Chiltern may go further and argue you've been doing this on previous occasions, and if so then yes your evidence of your runs would prove useful.

You could avoid a prosecution by agreeing an out of court settlement with Chiltern. They are unlikely to agree to a sum as low as £2.10 and may require a 3-figure sum.

If they don't agree to settle out of court, you need to urgently seek legal advice from a solicitor.

Have you read our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 10 - Disputes?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Edit: apologies the above post has been amalgamated into my latest post, as I should have approved your post before I clicked reply.

Thanks for the response. Not exactly what i wanted to hear though.
I understood that prosecutions were usually reserved for deliberate/persistent offences whereas genuine mistakes were usually covered by penalty fares.

Agreed, but the inspector may reasonably have suspected this was not a 'mistake', so it may well be for a Court to decide...

A three figure sum seems punitive and massively disproportionate to the potential loss to the railway through a genuinely innocent mistake.

I am necessarily saying that they even will agree to a settlement, and it would be up to you to offer one. A lower amount may well suffice, but if they suspect previous incidents then the amount may have to be higher.

They'll probably write to you and ask for your version of events. You can try to convince them it was a genuine mistake, but if they don't believe you, and you (or they!) are not prepared to reach an out of court settlement, then it will ultimately be up to the Courts to decide.

Also - why is the journey definitely from Birmingham?

Did you not say that you boarded a train at Birmingham and travelled on that train to Warwick?

If I've misunderstood your post, you are welcome to clarify what journey you made.

 

[kwerty]

Thanks for the response. Not exactly what i wanted to hear though.
I understood that prosecutions were usually reserved for deliberate/persistent offences whereas genuine mistakes were usually covered by penalty fares.
A three figure sum seems punitive and massively disproportionate to the potential loss to the railway through a genuinely innocent mistake.

Also - why is the journey definitely from Birmingham?

 

[34D]

But I did have a ticket that was valid from when I passed through the barriers at Brum right up until I didn't get off the train at Hatton - the train did stop in Hatton so there is no issue of incorrect use of split tickets. Once on the train I had no opportunity to rectify the mistake. There was no conductor to sell me a ticket, and even if I had got off at Hatton and got back on a later train I still would have had no opportunity to buy a ticket (unmanned station) so the result would have been the same - arriving in Warwick with no ticket from Hatton.
b) the pricing and ticketing structure makes it cheaper to buy a return plus a 'top-up' single rather than two singles for the outward and return journeys. This surely means that it should count as two separate journeys (Brum to Hatton & Hatton to Warwick) rather than one journey. So I effectively started my second journey at Hatton and as I had no opportunity to buy a ticket either there or on the train I committed absolutely no offence at all. Is this a valid assertion?

It is an interesting viewpoint - but sadly I suspect Yorkie's analysis is correct here. Part of me would be minded to aegue this point further, though it may well be fruitless

 

[SWTCommuter]

b) the pricing and ticketing structure makes it cheaper to buy a return plus a 'top-up' single rather than two singles for the outward and return journeys.

It would have been cheaper to have bought a return from Warwick to Birmingham and started short at Hatton.

Hatton to Birmingham stations Anytime return: £8.20
Hatton to Warwick Anytime single: £2.10

Warwick to Birmingham stations Anytime return £9.20

 

[maniacmartin]

I very much doubt you can argue you started a second, separate journey at a station you didn't even change trains at. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage specifically cover using multiple tickets for one journey.

You should have sorted the ticketing arrangements at the start of the journey in Birmingham before even boarding the train. I agree with Yorkie's advice here.

 

[kwerty]

I'd like to know what actually constitutes "a journey"?. Is there a set definition? Yorkie mentions having to leave and re-enter the station - Hatton is tiny so it would be possible to get off the train, leave the station, go and do some star jumps on Station road then run back onto the same train all before the doors closed again - would this start a new journey? Obviously i didn't do this and i'm not going to perjure myself by pretending i did.

I'd just like to know,having gone through the barrier at Brum (with at that point, a valid ticket) , what I should have done to avoid breaking the rules? would i have had to get off at Hatton and leave the station, wait for the next train, or even longer to start a new journey- to my mind it makes no difference as the result would always have been the same, me arriving in Warwick without a ticket.

Anyway, I've drafted a letter to send explaining all I wrote in my original post. Hopefully this will convince them it was a genuine error and that I'm not a habitual fare dodger.

I guess its pointless trying to guess what will happen but if they offer to settle for a low amount - (<£30ish) I'd probably just take it and chalk it up to experience as i do recognise I posssibly made a very minor mistake by the letter of the law and it wouldn't be worth arguing.

I'm just a bit worried that they may not offer to settle or offer to settle for a ridiculous amount- which would just feel like extortion - pay up or plead guiltt or face going to court and possibly paying more.

SWTCommuter - i thought starting short wasn't allowed?

Maniacmartin - thanks. I realise i should have sorted the ticket before leaving brum. But having forgotten to do that what could i have done?

 

[yorkie]

I'd like to know what actually constitutes "a journey"?. Is there a set definition? Yorkie mentions having to leave and re-enter the station - Hatton is tiny so it would be possible to get off the train, leave the station, go and do some star jumps on Station road then run back onto the same train all before the doors closed again - would this start a new journey?

If you had done that, it would have made a very interesting argument in Court, and I'd be very interested to see the outcome!

Obviously i didn't do this and i'm not going to perjure myself by pretending i did.
I'd just like to know,having gone through the barrier at Brum (with at that point, a valid ticket) , what I should have done to avoid breaking the rules? would i have had to get off at Hatton and leave the station, wait for the next train, or even longer to start a new journey- to my mind it makes no difference as the result would always have been the same, me arriving in Warwick without a ticket.

Apologies for repeating myself but, in case you missed it:

Your journey was from Birmingham to Warwick, and the correct ticket(s)/excess should have been purchased at Birmingham.

Have you read our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 10 - Disputes?

Anyway, I've drafted a letter to send explaining all I wrote in my original post. Hopefully this will convince them it was a genuine error and that I'm not a habitual fare dodger.

I guess its pointless trying to guess what will happen but if they offer to settle for a low amount - (<£30ish) I'd probably just take it and chalk it up to experience as i do recognise I posssibly made a very minor mistake by the letter of the law and it wouldn't be worth arguing.

I'm just a bit worried that they may not offer to settle or offer to settle for a ridiculous amount- which would just feel like extortion - pay up or plead guiltt or face going to court and possibly paying more.

We can't really advise on that.

SWTCommuter - i thought starting short wasn't allowed?

There are no restrictions on "break of journey" (which includes starting/finishing "short") on Anytime (Day) tickets.

Maniacmartin - thanks. I realise i should have sorted the ticket before leaving brum. But having forgotten to do that what could i have done?

Once the train departs, you are limited in what you can do. I would seek the Guard, but if no Guard can be found, you really have no choice but to alight at the station your ticket is to.

If you boarded at an unstaffed station, that's a very different matter.

 

[kwerty]

Once the train departs, you are limited in what you can do. I would seek the Guard, but if no Guard can be found, you really have no choice but to alight at the station your ticket is to.

That's kind of what I'm getting at though. I should have alighted at Hatton....then what? Get back on the same train? get the next train? How long do I have to wait before it counts as a new journey rather than an illegal continuation of the original one? Would I have to stay there overnight? What if I had some other totally legitimate reason for wanting to change my travel plans and travel further than Hatton?

Getting the next train wouldn't have changed anything. I still wouldn't have had a ticket when I arrived at Warwick. It makes no difference to the railway which train I arrive in Warwick on - they're still down £2.10 because they don't have my fare. Why would a 20 minute wait on a chilly platform in rural Warwickshire magically transform me from criminal fare dodger to valued customer? It doesn't make sense!:mad:

 

[6Gman]

- Wednesday evening I'd been running late all day so legged it to the station to get the train home. Went through the barrier using my ticket from Brum to Hatton and got on the train. Only remembered when I'd sat down that I wasn't running this evening so needed to buy the top up single from Hatton to Warwick.

-didn't see the conductor at any time on the train so from that point I had no opportunity to buy a ticket

You "didn't see the conductor". Would it not have been sensible to seek him/her out?

 

[yorkie]

That's kind of what I'm getting at though. I should have alighted at Hatton....then what? Get back on the same train? get the next train?

I'm not sure this has been legally tested. If you want my opinion, exiting railway premises should suffice, but I am not sure the Courts would agree with my opinion.

How long do I have to wait before it counts as a new journey rather than an illegal continuation of the original one?

I'm not aware this has ever been tested. If it has, I'd also be interested to know!

Would I have to stay there overnight?

I think I can confidently say no to that one!

What if I had some other totally legitimate reason for wanting to change my travel plans and travel further than Hatton?

That's fine but for this particular type of change of travel plans, you need to sort the ticket out at the origin station (or, failing that, on board the train before you reach the station your ticket covers you to).

Getting the next train wouldn't have changed anything. I still wouldn't have had a ticket when I arrived at Warwick. It makes no difference to the railway which train I arrive in Warwick on - they're still down £2.10 because they don't have my fare. Why would a 20 minute wait on a chilly platform in rural Warwickshire magically transform me from criminal fare dodger to valued customer? It doesn't make sense!:mad:

The angle to approach it is this:

A journey from Birmingham to Warwick requires a ticket or tickets to be purchased at Birmingham, if the ticket office is open.

A journey from Hatton to Warwick can be bought either on the train, or at the destination, because there is no facility at Hatton to buy tickets.

You clearly made a journey from Birmingham to Warwick.

In other cases it may be a lot less clear-cut... but you can't make those arguments in your case, as they do not apply to your case.

 

[kwerty]

You "didn't see the conductor". Would it not have been sensible to seek him/her out?

Its a two car train that stops at a number of unmanned stations. Very very rarely have i made a journey on that service without a ticket check. If you don't see the conductor it means they are hiding in one of the cabs and god only knows what they get up to in there. The last time i tried to speak to a conductor whilst he was in the cab i practically got bawled out for it.

Forgive me for thinking that coming through the train checking and selling tickets was part of their job. A cynical person may think that the lack of a ticket check and RPO visits were somehow linked...

 

[kwerty]

You clearly made a journey from Birmingham to Warwick.

In other cases it may be a lot less clear-cut... but you can't make those arguments in your case, as they do not apply to your case.

Ok. I'll accept that. But indulge me with a hypothetical case.

What if I had got off at Hatton and:
a)Left the station giving the CCTV camera a cheery wave on the way past. Went back in and got the next train to Warwick. I've checked the timetable and the next train I could have caught actually arrives in Warwick only 12 minutes later than the first train. Assuming as is most likely that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to buy a ticket on that train I would still arrive in Warwick without ticket. The general consensus from you and other posters seems to be that as In that case I would therefore have started a new journey so wouldn't have infringed the rules.

or

b) if that isn't the case how could I actually get home from Hatton by train without breaking the rules.


That's what I don't get. Why the mere act of getting off and waiting for a short period makes such a difference. Either way the railway is still missing £2.10 but one way its ok, one way it isn't.

Anyway. The letter has been sent, just got to sit tight and wait for a response. Thanks for your replies.

 

[6Gman]

Its a two car train that stops at a number of unmanned stations. Very very rarely have i made a journey on that service without a ticket check. If you don't see the conductor it means they are hiding in one of the cabs and god only knows what they get up to in there. The last time i tried to speak to a conductor whilst he was in the cab i practically got bawled out for it.

Forgive me for thinking that coming through the train checking and selling tickets was part of their job. A cynical person may think that the lack of a ticket check and RPO visits were somehow linked...

On your first paragraph, seeking out the Conductor clearly indicates a lack of intent to evade the fare. The conductor may be 'hiding', but equally he/she may be in the next carriage assisting another passenger.

On your second paragraph yes ticket checking is - as you say - "part" of their job. It is not their only role and there can be legitimate reasons why they are unable to walk through.

 

[Gathursty]

I would have just told the RPO I was travelling from Hatton to Warwick and not showed him anything since I wasn't seen to by anyone since commencing at Hatton. You were too honest tbh. People will have a go at me but you did a journey from Birmingham to Hatton which stopped at Hatton and for some reason decided to continue on to Warwick. Whilst you should have got off at Hatton or made your mind up in Birmingham, you made it easy for the RPO to quite rightly take you down.

My advice would not be advisable if there is an RPO block at these particular halts however.

In future, I would just do the hokey cokey at anywhere your ticket covers you to just to cover your back with any future RPIs if you happen to want to continue on the train.

 

[Clip]

Always a mistake when continuing a journey for which a ticket is not held.


All the stuff about running home and such like on different days is largely irrelevant. I seem to remember hearing excuses like that when I worked for Chiltern and went out with the revenue teams, especially those who just so happened to get off at Denham but strangely only had a 1-6 travelcard as they 'normally' get off at one of the Ruislips...


Quite simply you did not have a valid ticket for the extra part of the journey you made. You didnt try and buy a ticket at any time before or during your journey. No matter how you try and wrap it up in other circumstances the facts is you did not have a valid ticket.

I am unsure if you are just on here to try and get away with paying anything more than the £2.10 fare but I dont think there is anyway that anyone can help you do so.

 

[Squaddie]

All the stuff about running home and such like on different days is largely irrelevant. I seem to remember hearing excuses like that when I worked for Chiltern and went out with the revenue teams, especially those who just so happened to get off at Denham but strangely only had a 1-6 travelcard as they 'normally' get off at one of the Ruislips...

And, even if it's all true (and we have no reason to believe that it's not), if someone's travel pattern is so complicated and irregular that it takes several paragraphs to describe two journeys to and from work then that person should be taking extra care to ensure that they have the correct tickets for the journeys being made and that when stopped they do not accidentally offer the previous day's tickets for inspection.

 

[Andrewlong]

It would have been cheaper to have bought a return from Warwick to Birmingham and started short at Hatton.

Hatton to Birmingham stations Anytime return: £8.20
Hatton to Warwick Anytime single: £2.10

Warwick to Birmingham stations Anytime return £9.20

Totally agree - for the sums involved - buy the Warwick to Birmingham return. To complete the picture, how much is a weekly season for the same route ?

To save £1 - oh dear - smacks of penny pinching and bloody mindedness. You need to have a ticket to travel and if you don't you risk the consequences.

 

[kwerty]

All the stuff about running home and such like on different days is largely irrelevant.

Maybe not relevant to my last journey but surely relevant background to prove that it was a single error rather part of a pattern of regular evasion. The letter I've been sent does not specify whether they intend to pursue a byelaw or RoRa prosecution so I would have thought that this evidence should at least make them rule out the possibility of the latter. Especially as I can prove what I sat about the running is true not just a story.

And, even if it's all true (and we have no reason to believe that it's not), if someone's travel pattern is so complicated and irregular that it takes several paragraphs to describe two journeys to and from work then that person should be taking extra care to ensure that they have the correct tickets for the journeys being made and that when stopped they do not accidentally offer the previous day's tickets for inspection.

:roll: That's all very well but like most people I sometimes make mistakes. It seems unfair that just because my travel patterns are complicated I should be expected to never make a mistake - despite this being more likely because my travel patterns are complicated.... And showing the previous days ticket IS irrelevant as I immediately showed the correct one when the inspector pointed this out.

I've been having a look over other threads and although the details are different this seems to be a similar case - arriving at a destination without a vaild ticket by mistake despite having had opportunity to purchase one.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97477

In this case the OP got sold the fare although the consensus seemed to be that a penalty fare could have been applicable. I understand that Chiltern run a penalty fare scheme across their network so don'tsee why this would not have been the same.

As Clip said I don't really know what to expect. Obviously I'd be happy to just pay the £2.10 fare but I accept that I infringed the rules and should therefore expect a penalty - annoying but just something to chalk up to experience. What I am worried about, and would feel more than a bit aggrieved about, is the possibility that this could result in a prosecution or a three figure settlement which seems completely disproportionate to the crime when the relevant penalty fare would be about £20.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Totally agree - for the sums involved - buy the Warwick to Birmingham return. To complete the picture, how much is a weekly season for the same route ?

To save £1 - oh dear - smacks of penny pinching and bloody mindedness. You need to have a ticket to travel and if you don't you risk the consequences.

Erm - it actually costs £1 more to buy all the separate tickets. TBF I was under the misapprehension that starting short i.e buying Warwick-Brum return but starting at Hatton wasn't allowed. But apparently you can do that on anytime tickets and it is only invalid on advance fares - is that correct?? So I guess I will be doing this in the future. Obvious and easy to say for rail industry insiders but the byzantine nature of the ticketing system doesn't exactly make things like this easy to work out even for pretty frequent travellers like me.

The weekly season is over £30. It's only economic if I make four or more journeys in the week which is a pretty rare occurrence. If I know I will i be doing so I do buy one.

to paraphrase you - "smacks of wouldn't do it on purpose as it isn't bloody worth the risk"

 

[Squaddie]

I sometimes make mistakes. It seems unfair that just because my travel patterns are complicated I should be expected to never make a mistake - despite this being more likely because my travel patterns are complicated.... And showing the previous days ticket IS irrelevant as I immediately showed the correct one when the inspector pointed this out.

I think we all accept that you made a mistake, and that perhaps you have been harshly treated.

If you have not already sent the letter to explain your actions, I suggest that you should keep it simple and not include all the irrelevant detail about your running. Just say (for this is the essential detail) that you had a return ticket from Hatton to Birmingham, wished to extend your return journey to Warwick and that you had had no opportunity to pay the excess on the train. That really is all you need to say.

And you really do have to be very careful in future that you buy the correct tickets to cover your complicated journeys, because if you are caught again without a ticket, even if that is also as a result of a genuine mistake on your part, you will undoubtedly be prosecuted.

 

[Clip]

Maybe not relevant to my last journey but surely relevant background to prove that it was a single error rather part of a pattern of regular evasion. The letter I've been sent does not specify whether they intend to pursue a byelaw or RoRa prosecution so I would have thought that this evidence should at least make them rule out the possibility of the latter. Especially as I can prove what I sat about the running is true not just a story.

I understand but try and see it from the TOCs point of view also.

Person has ticket for a journey shorter than the one they have paid for. Claims to do this every so often due to running home every so often. They say they normally buy on the train and not at Birmingham when they start thier journey,Why would they not think that you actually do it all the time - that £2.10 certainly adds up over a week/month/year.

It may be an expensive mistake and certainly more than the regular £20 PF but maybe it will mean that you never ever not buy a ticket for your journey.

 

[MikeWh]

To save £1 - oh dear - smacks of penny pinching and bloody mindedness. You need to have a ticket to travel and if you don't you risk the consequences.

How utterly rude and patronising! For your sake I hope you never have to struggle to make ends meet. Unfortunately it's a stark reality for millions of people in this country. £1 buys FOUR pints of milk. That is a VERY worthwhile saving if funds are tight.

 

[Clip]

How utterly rude and patronising! For your sake I hope you never have to struggle to make ends meet. Unfortunately it's a stark reality for millions of people in this country. £1 buys FOUR pints of milk. That is a VERY worthwhile saving if funds are tight.

Indeed but the penalty for not paying the extra £1 on your ticket is going to be far far higher.

for people on a tight budget I would hope they wouldnt take the risk,.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I understand that Chiltern run a penalty fare scheme across their network so don'tsee why this would not have been the same.

It must be remembered that wherever a Penalty Fare scheme is in operation an inspector who is also authorised staff is never obliged, to issue such a notice or to accept a Penalty Fare if they genuinely believe that evidence of a reportable offence has been detected.

If the reporting inspector knows that an opportunity to pay the correct fare, or part thereof was available at the station from which the traveller began the journey and if the traveller held a ticket for only a part of that journey, it is likely that a report recommending prosecution of an offence alleging intent to avoid the correct fare will be submitted.

 

[Andrewlong]

How utterly rude and patronising! For your sake I hope you never have to struggle to make ends meet. Unfortunately it's a stark reality for millions of people in this country. £1 buys FOUR pints of milk. That is a VERY worthwhile saving if funds are tight.

But by buying that single for £2.10 you have foregone 8 pints of milk. And if done on a regular basis - it mounts up. So in terms of economics, I stand by my previous comment.

 

[kwerty]

But I've never claimed to buy those tickets on the train. When I've done that before I've always had the correct ticket before joining. That may have got lost in the telling here though i made sure to clearly state it in my letter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It must be remembered that wherever a Penalty Fare scheme is in operation an inspector who is also authorised staff is never obliged, to issue such a notice or to accept a Penalty Fare if they genuinely believe that evidence of a reportable offence has been detected.

Sure, and i guess the inspector must have thought i did this regularly so decided to prosecute not give a penalty fare. Untrue but an understandable assumption.

But here's the problem. I've had a good look round similar threads and there seems to be a pattern. Once the TOC starts to go down the prosecution road there seems to be no way to back up to a penalty fare even if the accused can prove it is a genuine one off mistake (you're welcome to think whatever you want about my case). So the accused has little option but to go for an OOC settlement, especially if they are (or profess to be) law abiding people who really don't want to get caught up in a court case. And the settlement always seems to be many times more than the penalty fare would have been.

To use an analogy. Its like being pulled over for a minor speeding offence which would always just get £60 and 3 points fixed penalty. But for whatever reason the cop thinks you have done something more serious e.g. Driving without insurance. You can prove that you weren't guilty of the more serious offence but you still have to pay the police's costs for the time they spent investigating as well as the £60 and 3 points.

 

[Clip]

You say there is no way to get it back to a penalty fare, that's because one was not offered in the first place as the rpi decided there was more to this and as such didn't warrant a penalty fare.

No amount of analogys will help in this instance especially the one you have used.

 

[SWTCommuter]

a) I made a genuine mistake by forgetting to buy the 'top-up' from Hatton to Warwick before getting on the train as I usually do just for convenience.
d) If needed I can provide bank statements showing frequent ticket purchases at Warwick station over the last 3 years.

Statements a) and d) seem slightly contradictory. If you usually buy your 'top-up' tickets at Birmingham, presumably those purchases would also show on your bank statements?

According to National Rail, the ticket office hours at Warwick are 06:25 to 12:55. Are the barriers usually unmanned when you pass through on the return journey?

 

[kwerty]

Statements a) and d) seem slightly contradictory. If you usually buy your 'top-up' tickets at Birmingham, presumably those purchases would also show on your bank statements?

According to National Rail, the ticket office hours at Warwick are 06:25 to 12:55. Are the barriers usually unmanned when you pass through on the return journey?

To clarify. Vast majority of my journeys are warwick-brum return so they get bought at Warwick, or cov- brum- Warwick so they all get bought at cov. The other journeys are really rare, only every couple of months or so but yes, they get bought at brum.

There are no barriers at Warwick. I think only brum and Leamington have them on that line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Statements a) and d) seem slightly contradictory. If you usually buy your 'top-up' tickets at Birmingham, presumably those purchases would also show on your bank statements?

According to National Rail, the ticket office hours at Warwick are 06:25 to 12:55. Are the barriers usually unmanned when you pass through on the return journey?

To clarify. Vast majority of my journeys are warwick-brum return so they get bought at Warwick, or cov- brum- Warwick so they all get bought at cov. The other journeys are really rare, only every couple of months or so but yes, they get bought at brum.

There are no barriers at Warwick. I think only brum and Leamington have them on that line.

 

[MyFriendMary]

So would statement a) mean you usually buy the top up on board or at Birmingham ticket office?

If the information about the run was told to the RPI was told, me may have raised it further in the knowledge that it takes overr an hour to walk between the two stations - so if you were in work gear, whatever that might me, it might have raised an eyebrow. Usually information like that, which isn't necessary, raises my curiosity furtherr