Gating fast line platforms to reduce suicides at stations including New Southgate

[transmanche]

I note you have ignored my point about the effects on others.

No, I haven't ignored it. The effect on others is profound, especially those who literally have to clear up afterwards. Ihe subsequent delay to passengers is frustrating - and yes, I have been one of those frustrated passengers on many occasions. Which is why (back in post #19) I commended the railway's partnership with the Samaritans, which is delivering relatively simple but effective ways of achieving a reduction in railway suicides.

But what I call ignorant is your use of the term "selfish" to describe those who (attempt to) commit suicide, as if it were a rational choice. If you have given evidence at Coroner's Inquests, then it's sad that you have not learned anything from the experience about the mental state of potential suicides.

 

[A-driver]

To be fair, it is selfish, suicide is the ultimate in selfishness.

BUT...no one considering suicide is in a 'normal ' state of mind. Selfishness dosnt come into it. To consider suicide (and I mean seriously consider it) you have to be way beyond rational thought. It is a mental illness, and therefore an illness. I have never ever heard anyone call an ill person 'selfish' because they have collapsed somewhere and are holding others up, yet people think it acceptable to brandish those with a mental illness as selfish.

Unfortunately it is ignorance of the true causes of suicide. It is selfish to those in a rational mindset but it is not something that someone in a suicidal state has any control over. So to call someone who chooses to jump under a train selfish is totally wrong and unacceptable. And I say this as someone who has witnessed railway suicides and been caught up in dozens of them.

Also, I'd say in response to the comments about investing in dealing with the aftermath that prevention is most definately better than cure. Ultimately all trials have shown that these gates are very effective and that is why they are being rolled out further.

There is still a big lack of understanding in regards to mental illness and suicide on this thread, worryingly being pedalled by people claiming to be trained in such things...

 

[bramling]

No, I haven't ignored it. The effect on others is profound, especially those who literally have to clear up afterwards. Ihe subsequent delay to passengers is frustrating - and yes, I have been one of those frustrated passengers on many occasions. Which is why (back in post #19) I commended the railway's partnership with the Samaritans, which is delivering relatively simple but effective ways of achieving a reduction in railway suicides.

But what I call ignorant is your use of the term "selfish" to describe those who (attempt to) commit suicide, as if it were a rational choice. If you have given evidence at Coroner's Inquests, then it's sad that you have not learned anything from the experience about the mental state of potential suicides.

What I have picked up is that the root causes tend to be diverse. There are cases where the individual has literally just escaped from hospital. There are other cases where the relatives of the individual have been trying for sometimes many years to get the person treated however the system has worked against them in one way or another. Or where one relative has tried hard to get a person treated but another has blocked the process.

By contrast I have seen cases where there have been domestic issues, monetary worries and literally countless other reasons. It is the easy option to somehow assume every individual is some kind of mental case, but as a society we seem to want to go down that road because it makes it easier to ignore some of the root causes which governments, institutions, and sometimes individuals, have not addressed over time. Having witnessed some examples of community care, I have to say the standard of health care in this area can be deplorable.

 

[jon0844]

On the subject of root causes, as a society we should look at some of the reasons people attempt to take their life.

How?

Something could happen to someone tomorrow that causes them to think suicidal thoughts, with no way of anyone knowing beforehand.

Or it could be a series of events.

Or it MIGHT be someone who suffers depression, but has never shown any signs of suicidal thoughts.. and if anyone thought they might, what do you do? Section 28 them?

 

[A-driver]

What I have picked up is that the root causes tend to be diverse. There are cases where the individual has literally just escaped from hospital. There are other cases where the relatives of the individual have been trying for sometimes many years to get the person treated however the system has worked against them in one way or another. Or where one relative has tried hard to get a person treated but another has blocked the process.



By contrast I have seen cases where there have been domestic issues, monetary worries and literally countless other reasons. It is the easy option to somehow assume every individual is some kind of mental case, but as a society we seem to want to go down that road because it makes it easier to ignore some of the root causes which governments, institutions, and sometimes individuals, have not addressed over time. Having witnessed some examples of community care, I have to say the standard of health care in this area can be deplorable.

Sorry but 'root cause' is largely irrelevant when discussing the illness leading to suicide compared to sticking gates in on platforms.

I am rather confused why you are so anti- gates. They don't affect anyone else and have proved very effective so far.

Money may be the 'root cause' of suicide but it only triggers the illness of depression. No one commits suicide in a stable mind set. It's actually impossible, all instincts as a human being prevent you from harming yourself. The illness bypasses those instincts and alters your mindset allowing you to cause harm to yourself.

Yes it would be great if all life's worries were eliminated to avoid these causes of depression but it's not really possible in this world. Putting up a few fences on railway platforms is cheap and bakes a huge difference to anyone seriously contemplating suicide.

At the end if the day, harsh as it may sound, network rails main aim is to prevent service disruption. Yes those put off by the fences may find other ways of ending their life but network rail are there to keep trains running, not to provide healthcare. If these fences can prevent people jumping infront of trains like the 2 already this week in a few miles if track on the southern ECML then they are a success. I fail to see how you can argue with that!

 

[bramling]

Sorry but 'root cause' is largely irrelevant when discussing the illness leading to suicide compared to sticking gates in on platforms.

I am rather confused why you are so anti- gates. They don't affect anyone else and have proved very effective so far.

Money may be the 'root cause' of suicide but it only triggers the illness of depression. No one commits suicide in a stable mind set. It's actually impossible, all instincts as a human being prevent you from harming yourself. The illness bypasses those instincts and alters your mindset allowing you to cause harm to yourself.

Yes it would be great if all life's worries were eliminated to avoid these causes of depression but it's not really possible in this world. Putting up a few fences on railway platforms is cheap and bakes a huge difference to anyone seriously contemplating suicide.

At the end if the day, harsh as it may sound, network rails main aim is to prevent service disruption. Yes those put off by the fences may find other ways of ending their life but network rail are there to keep trains running, not to provide healthcare. If these fences can prevent people jumping infront of trains like the 2 already this week in a few miles if track on the southern ECML then they are a success. I fail to see how you can argue with that!

The issue I have is that on the ECML I do not feel these fences will bring a benefit, compared with the inconvenience they will cause.

As I said in an earlier post, I can fully understand the benefit at places where you have a F-F-S-S configuration, like on the WCML or Midland lines. Here it is a simple case that you can segregate off the two fast lines with minimal inconvenience.

At Knebworth, my understanding (please feel free to correct if I am wrong) is during the daytime there are 2x non-stop trains per hour each direction *booked* to pass through the slow platforms, sometimes more. There are also services booked to stop at the fast platforms, or in many cases trains which use at fast platforms at the signaller's discretion. This happens often at Knebworth, it's not just occasionally during engineering work or disruption.

The disbenefit is that all passengers therefore have to walk rather further to exit the platform, and have a lesser area of platform available to wait for trains, and may have to rush to the fast platform if a platform changes at the last minute. At Knebworth, particularly on the down side, it's not uncommon for a train to simply arrive at the fast platform with no prior information.

Likewise Brookmans Park, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate all have booked non-stop trains on the slow lines, so I can't see what the fences will achieve apart from inconveniencing legitimate users. From my viewpoint I see the fences being portrayed as the answer to all problems, and they're simply not, as apart from the inconvenience they cause, they do not prevent people jumping in front of trains at the platforms which are accessible, nor from bridges or other places where the track can be accessed.

There comes a time when we have to accept a certain level of risk - the only risk-free railway comes when there are no passengers, no staff and no train movements!

 

[jon0844]

Would someone thinking about suicide know about trains passing by the slow lines without stopping?

Are they going to research the timetable or check RTT? Presumably not.

 

[hassaanhc]

A lot of people commenting lately on this thread seem to have the wrong idea of suicide. Yes someone can still gain access if that determined but that is the thing, suicidal people are not that determined. An easy way to end your life in the mind of a suicidal person (which is not something you can begin to imagine unless you have been there) would be to walk round to the local station, head onto the platform and step off infront of a train. You leave your house and go and do that very easily. As soon as you hit any kind if barrier (not in the physical sense) it suddenly becomes far harder to go through with it. Simply someone standing infront if you and saying 'hello' or asking if you are ok can suddenly break your line of thought and make suicide impossible.

These gates are a physical barrier and to a suicidal person, encountering these fences will break that mindset and make suicide very, very difficult.

I should stress that I myself have never contented suicide before people start asking, but my brother is a psychiatric nurse and so knows all about these kind if things.

You talk of an "individual's choice of actions" as if it were a rational, considered decision. You could not be further from the truth. Putting your feet on seats is selfish, not giving up your seat for someone less able to stand than you is selfish - these are deliberate acts. Attempting suicide is not selfish, but an irrational and desperate act.

As someone with mental health issues with occasions of feeling suicidal (was more often in the past) this is correct, well in my case anyway. When I'm thinking like that as soon as I get distracted by something the thought goes and I can't believe I was feeling like that. Could be anything that distracts, whether someone talking to me or finding something remotely interesting and start concentrating on that (say a thread on this forum) or as mentioned anything physical that requires concentration. I often found this when I had a break at sixth form after a lesson that hadn't gone well, but as soon as I walked outside I would start feeling better and not thinking like that anymore. Getting on a "good" bus helped a lot, given I am a bus enthusiast :P. And then a station that I used once a week in the past (no longer do) where I found myself wanting to step onto the conductor rail when waiting for the train, but as soon as I got distracted or the train came I would no longer feel like that.

From the website of Mind, a mental health charity:

However, self-destructive emotions, thoughts and behaviours are often far more confused than this. In the weeks beforehand, depression, hopelessness and irritability often build up. Under pressure, people may become desperate, but may still feel confused. They may not want to die. Rather, they may see death as the only way to escape an impossible situation, to relieve an unbearable state of mind, or to convey desperate feelings to others. Some may be past caring whether they live or die. An important fact for you to recognise is that, however wavering and confused their feelings may be, they remain life-threatening.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would someone thinking about suicide know about trains passing by the slow lines without stopping?

Are they going to research the timetable or check RTT? Presumably not.

Going to check that would probably be the distraction that takes their mind off it.

 

[transmanche]

From my viewpoint I see the fences being portrayed as the answer to all problems

They're not portrayed as such. That's just something you've inferred incorrectly. They're part of a package of measures, something you'd have learned by taking even the slightest glance at the links I posted upthread.

The fences have other benefits other than a pure anti-suicide measure. By restricting access to platforms on fast lines they can help prevent accidents; whether it's people accidentally falling off the platform, or acts of tomfoolery leading to disaster. And I'm sure that anything which helps separate people from fast lines is good for driver stress too.

 

[hassaanhc]

Also:

Myth: If a person is serious about killing themselves then there is nothing you can do.
Fact: Often, feeling actively suicidal is temporary, even if someone have been feeling low, anxious or struggling to cope for a long period of time. This is why getting the right kind of support at the right time is so important.

 

[DarloRich]

@Bramling - you seem to be very against fences but the simple truth is that they work elsewhere and they will work on the ECML. They will stop some people killing themselves and they will stop some staff being traumatized by having to "attend to" the scene.

The erection of any "barrier", even the yellow hatched painting on platforms, turns people back from the brink. The research proves it. I have read it and would suggest people do. There is some interesting data on the RSSB website.

The fences are only part of a wider strategy to reduce deaths. There are general details of this strategy on the NR website. The fences alone aren't the answer to everything, nor are they the only answer available, but they do work as part of the wider campaign which has reduced the issue in a short time.

I do agree that more work needs to be done to understand and tackle the societal issues that lead to the situation where someone decides that suicide is the best/option the have. That said, compared with the prevention of loss of life the inconvenience to passengers in sliding open a gate is miniscule in my opinion

 

[A-driver]

The issue I have is that on the ECML I do not feel these fences will bring a benefit, compared with the inconvenience they will cause.



As I said in an earlier post, I can fully understand the benefit at places where you have a F-F-S-S configuration, like on the WCML or Midland lines. Here it is a simple case that you can segregate off the two fast lines with minimal inconvenience.



At Knebworth, my understanding (please feel free to correct if I am wrong) is during the daytime there are 2x non-stop trains per hour each direction *booked* to pass through the slow platforms, sometimes more. There are also services booked to stop at the fast platforms, or in many cases trains which use at fast platforms at the signaller's discretion. This happens often at Knebworth, it's not just occasionally during engineering work or disruption.



The disbenefit is that all passengers therefore have to walk rather further to exit the platform, and have a lesser area of platform available to wait for trains, and may have to rush to the fast platform if a platform changes at the last minute. At Knebworth, particularly on the down side, it's not uncommon for a train to simply arrive at the fast platform with no prior information.



Likewise Brookmans Park, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate all have booked non-stop trains on the slow lines, so I can't see what the fences will achieve apart from inconveniencing legitimate users. From my viewpoint I see the fences being portrayed as the answer to all problems, and they're simply not, as apart from the inconvenience they cause, they do not prevent people jumping in front of trains at the platforms which are accessible, nor from bridges or other places where the track can be accessed.



There comes a time when we have to accept a certain level of risk - the only risk-free railway comes when there are no passengers, no staff and no train movements!

Dear, dear...seriously? Inconvenience? How can the fences possibly be inconvenient? The ones at knebworth are up and running and no problems at all with them. Trains use both slow and fast lines to stop and I have never seen any issues with people unable to reach either line.

I don't understand what it is with some people who visit this forum. They refuse to listen to those 'in the know' and refuse accept that they are wrong! These fences would not be installed without a good business case for them based on proper research, not peoples 'opinions'. The hatched lines and fences are proved to work. They won't completely remove the problem but will significantly reduce it.

Currently the southern ECML, especially stevenage-Finsbury park is a suicide hotspot with a hugely high number if incidents in the past few years. I'm personally glad they are tackling the issue.

Claiming people can still use the slow lines to jump under trains is missing the point. The fences are part of a series of works including Samaritans posters and phone lines ( these phone lines I believe also mean that the Samaritans alert network rail when used so trains can be cautioned).

I'm sorry if these fences may inconvenience you (although I'm at a complete loss to see how they would but never mind...) but if they save lives and reduce hours of disruption then they are only a good thing, and as a driver I am very pleased such work is being undertaken to reduce the likelihood of me ever being involved in one of these horrific incidents.

Perhaps rather than people slating these projects before they are complete and whilst refusing to look at any read watch of facts people could try reading up on these issues and looking at other regions where they have worked and look at the ECML once the project is finished?

 

[Bald Rick]

Absolutely spot on A-driver.

I am currently stood on the platform at Hatfield where today's tragic incident took place. There are no mid platform fences. When one goes past at 115 you know about it. The team here have had a bad day, and I don't suppose the driver involved did either. Let alone the nearest and dearest of the individual concerned.

Anything that can help prevent such incidents, even a small proportion, has to be the right thing to do.

 

[edwin_m]

Anything that can help prevent such incidents, even a small proportion, has to be the right thing to do.

Absolutely. I'm rather surprised to read that such simple measures can be effective but as this appears to be so then they should be put in place with all speed.

For the sake of the people deterred from committing the act.

For the sake of those staff that no are longer exposed to the trauma.

and for the sake of the many passengers whose journeys will be disrupted less often.

 

[jon0844]

I am currently stood on the platform at Hatfield where today's tragic incident took place. There are no mid platform fences.

Was it someone jumping off platform 2 then? (For those that don't know, the up fast has no platform).

If so, I wonder if Hatfield is also going to get the fencing? Yes, some trains do stop on platform 2 but it's not many.

 

[hassaanhc]

Earlsfield P1 and Wimbledon P6/7 have had fencing installation start in the last few days, expected to take 4 months. SWT say that it is to improve safety.

 

[Clip]

Absolutely spot on A-driver.

I am currently stood on the platform at Hatfield where today's tragic incident took place. There are no mid platform fences. When one goes past at 115 you know about it. The team here have had a bad day, and I don't suppose the driver involved did either. Let alone the nearest and dearest of the individual concerned.

Anything that can help prevent such incidents, even a small proportion, has to be the right thing to do.

Which answered my question I put to bramling when he made this callous statement:-

Fortunately not! About to head in, so hopefully it will all be resolved by the time I get to the station. Once again failed to be prevented by platform fences..

So for someone who says he deals with firslt line response to these incidents for those involved is nothing short of amazing.

 

[david_VI]

All the stations between Shenfield and Liverpool Street on GEML have these fences now. I think it's been a few weeks. No idea if there's any statistics since.

I saw a poster saying they are looking into putting blue lights along the platform edges because it calms people. That seems a bit crazy!

 

[306024]

Not all, Stratford, Ilford, Romford and Gidea Park don't. Stratford and Romford regularly have trains stop at all platforms while Gidea Park is a different configuration with two island platforms. Not sure if Ilford is on the list, sadly a fatality there just last Wednesday morning.

The blue light experiment is at Romford, will only be noticeable in darkness. May seem crazy to a rational mind but apparently blue is a calming colour, and as discussed earlier, anything that may help prevent one of these incidents is worth trying.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not all, Stratford, Ilford, Romford and Gidea Park don't. Stratford and Romford regularly have trains stop at all platforms while Gidea Park is a different configuration with two island platforms. Not sure if Ilford is on the list, sadly a fatality there just last Wednesday morning.

The blue light experiment is at Romford, will only be noticeable in darkness. May seem crazy to a rational mind but apparently blue is a calming colour, and as discussed earlier, anything that may help prevent one of these incidents is worth trying.

To be fair, there's blue lights at Romford station most Friday / Saturday evenings.

 

[TheEdge]

To be fair, there's blue lights at Romford station most Friday / Saturday evenings.

Not the calming type though!

 

[EssexGonzo]

Not all, Stratford, Ilford, Romford and Gidea Park don't. Stratford and Romford regularly have trains stop at all platforms while Gidea Park is a different configuration with two island platforms. Not sure if Ilford is on the list, sadly a fatality there just last Wednesday morning.

The blue light experiment is at Romford, will only be noticeable in darkness. May seem crazy to a rational mind but apparently blue is a calming colour, and as discussed earlier, anything that may help prevent one of these incidents is worth trying.

I've noticed the fences on many do the stations between Shenfield and LST. I think we've had 5 or 6 fatalities so far this year. A friend was one of them.

Whilst I understand those who hold the selfishness view (as I did until recently), watching your mate go down the aisle in his coffin followed by his kids was shocking. As was the case 3 weeks ago.

Whilst he had had a bad few years, no-one except his wife realised things were that bad. "Selfishness" does not apply here. He, and I daresay others, were not capable of consciously thinking selfishly nor were they capable of logical analysis before the event.

The very word implies about thinking only for oneself. In this case he was doing it to release his family from the burden of coping with him. Hardly selfish.

The tw*ts who were 90 minutes late to work that took to Twitter and threatened his family are the selfish w*nkers. How could any human being worth spending oxygen on attack the family of someone who had just taken his own life?

 

[IKBrunel]

Sounds like the case for the extra fences is very strong, not just on BCR grounds but on a basic humanitarian level.

A previous poster mentioned the difficulties involved in getting good care for people with mental health issues. While things like treatment of breast cancer and heart disease attract regular media coverage, the challenges of mental health treatment go unreported. Whilst there are some very committed and hard working individuals in mental health, funding into research and treatment of mental health is seriously lacking, and as a result the standard of care can be quite variable as staff don't have enough time to give a decent level of care.

Maybe next time I'm stuck on a train due to a one under I'll use the time to write to my MP pushing for more spending on mental health care.

 

[causton]

Whether these fences are a good idea or not, and I believe they are, the only downsides being that if they are locked shut they can sometimes forget to be unlocked when needed, they restrict the width of the platform etc, I think there is a stigma attached to suicides. The amount of people that complain after a one-under to TOCs, to their friends on social media etc. worries me. I don't understand how someone can be that insensitive to the families, staff, emergency services involved... Surely they know that the person wasn't doing it to deliberately disrupt the railway?

 

[jon0844]

All the stations between Shenfield and Liverpool Street on GEML have these fences now. I think it's been a few weeks. No idea if there's any statistics since.

I saw a poster saying they are looking into putting blue lights along the platform edges because it calms people. That seems a bit crazy!

They have blue lighting at Baker Street on one platform (suggesting it's a trial of some sort). Not sure that's what they are there for - although it's not on one of the platforms that has a particularly large gap.

I guess blue is one of the only colours they could use, as has been suggested, so as not to confuse a driver.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sounds like the case for the extra fences is very strong, not just on BCR grounds but on a basic humanitarian level.

I had another thought about the benefit of this fencing. If the fast lines are effectively closed off for a lot of the time, even if there will be gaps to allow people to cross over, it will help staff spot someone that is now on the wrong side - and perhaps keep an eye on them.

If people can spread all over the platform, they might not be so easily noticed.

I haven't thought about it much before, but when I used to commute, I nearly always walked all the way down platform 1 at Hatfield to board on the first set of doors and usually I was all alone. Likewise, at Finsbury Park and Potters Bar, I often walked down the length of the 6 or 8 car train coming, well away from others.

I guess any member of staff could have wondered why I'd gone off. I guess they figured I was safe, perhaps recognised me as a regular passenger, or a train spotter!

 

[tsr]

They have blue lighting at Baker Street on one platform (suggesting it's a trial of some sort). Not sure that's what they are there for - although it's not on one of the platforms that has a particularly large gap.

I'm sure I remember the reasoning being related to the different gaps/trip hazards when new S-Stock trains are used. IIRC, the lighting is on a bay platform and also flashes to alert people to the gap.

I guess any member of staff could have wondered why I'd gone off. I guess they figured I was safe, perhaps recognised me as a regular passenger, or a train spotter!

If staff do think you are suicidal or have other suspicions, even if you are perfectly OK, they may of course come and speak to you. Some TOCs appear to be a little more proactive than others at suggesting their staff should do this. But if it does happen to you or other members, I trust you won't be offended (and I'm not saying you would be). Making a judgment about that sort of risk will always be tricky, and just the act of staff introducing themselves to anyone who actually is suicidal can indeed then lead to a good distraction away from the situation.

 

[scotsman]

I've noticed the fences on many do the stations between Shenfield and LST. I think we've had 5 or 6 fatalities so far this year. A friend was one of them.

Whilst I understand those who hold the selfishness view (as I did until recently), watching your mate go down the aisle in his coffin followed by his kids was shocking. As was the case 3 weeks ago.

Whilst he had had a bad few years, no-one except his wife realised things were that bad. "Selfishness" does not apply here. He, and I daresay others, were not capable of consciously thinking selfishly nor were they capable of logical analysis before the event.

The very word implies about thinking only for oneself. In this case he was doing it to release his family from the burden of coping with him. Hardly selfish.

The tw*ts who were 90 minutes late to work that took to Twitter and threatened his family are the selfish w*nkers. How could any human being worth spending oxygen on attack the family of someone who had just taken his own life?

I'm really sorry to hear about your friend, beyond tragic.

Also, you are absolutely spot on here.

 

[34D]

I have previously been on trains which used the fast platforms at New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, etc. Is the responsibility for unlocking the gates:

-the driver

-station staff?

 

[jopsuk]

Station staff, it would be ridiculous to expect the driver to do it

 

[philjo]

Station staff, it would be ridiculous to expect the driver to do it

The fences are being installed at Brookmans Park at the moment.
National Rail site shows the station is staffed at these times:

Monday - Friday 06:50 - 10:00
Saturday - Sunday Closed

Who will be around to unlock the gates if necessary at other times?
I know that very few trains use the fast line platforms here - but they are mainly short notice alterations due to a line blockage/signal failure etc.