When making an earlier connection, can you pay on the train?

[MKB]

This seems to happen to me quite often, where I have an opportunity to get an earlier than expected train, but don't have time to go the ticket office to get the necessary new ticket. An example to illustrate what I mean occurs this coming Sunday.

I'm booked on an Advance ticket (with Cross Country) from Cardiff to Coventry with a change at Birmingham.

If the CDF-BHM arrives on time, I'll easily make an earlier illegal VT connection to Coventry, but there certainly wouldn't be time to go the ticket office to buy a ticket.

In this situation, do I have an "opportunity to buy" before my journey? Clearly, I can't buy a ticket until I know that the CDF-BHM is on time, so I would argue that I don't. I want to be able to buy a new ticket on the VT BHM-COV train to cover BHM-COV and have access, on board, to the discounted VT-only Anytime Day single with railcard discount at £2.05 each.

I'm aware of the counter argument that I've invalidated my Advance ticket by not completing the full journey on that, which complicates matters.

What's the board's views on where I stand? Do I really have to wait for the booked train even though I'm willing to pay again to get home earlier?

 

[bb21]

Yes, in theory you have to wait for your booked service (presumably also an XC one?), but you may want to ask the VT guard prior to boarding. You may even be allowed to travel without purchasing another ticket.

The question of "opportunity to buy" does not come into it imo, as it would be a question of whether you left sufficient time to buy your ticket before boarding (the VT service).

 

[Paul Kelly]

I would think this falls into the same category as arriving at the station so late that you don't have time to purchase a ticket before your train leaves. Could you not buy it from the guard on the CDF-BHM train? I'm guessing the through fare is routed XC ONLY, so that there is absolutely no chance of it being accepted on the Virgin BHM-COV service? I don't think you would be breaking the terms and conditions of the CDF-BHM advance by only using it as far as BHM, as you would not be breaking your journey there.

 

[Greenback]

My view is that forfeiting flexibility is one of the downsides of buying Advance tickets. I believe the proper course of action for the VT TM would be to only sell the Anytime single from Birmingham to Coventry.

I'm not sure where the opportunity to buy comes into it either. I don't think you would be able to argue that you should get a discounted ticket because of a lack of opportunity to buy when making an illegal connection which is not allowed on your ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

To quote from the T&Cs of Advance tickets....

"....Changes to the time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. You will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when you request a change.

Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If you board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased...."

 

[transmanche]

If the CDF-BHM arrives on time, I'll easily make an earlier illegal VT connection to Coventry, but there certainly wouldn't be time to go the ticket office to buy a ticket.

If you have the appropriate smartphone and if your ticket is available as an m-ticket, use the Virgin Trains app to buy your ticket on-the-go - when you know that you're going to make the conection.

 

[island]

What's the board's views on where I stand? Do I really have to wait for the booked train even though I'm willing to pay again to get home earlier?

Your Advance ticket is (a) not valid on Virgin Trains and (b) not valid to end your XC journey at Birmingham N St.

You would not be able to avail of Railcard discounts if buying on board the Virgin service, as Birmingham N St has ticketing facilities. You could buy a ticket at Cardiff Central (Caerdydd Canolog) or from the guard on the XC train or from the excess fares desk at Birmingham N St.

 

[MKB]

If you have the appropriate smartphone and if your ticket is available as an m-ticket, use the Virgin Trains app to buy your ticket on-the-go - when you know that you're going to make the conection.

That sounded promising, but the weblink says:

"m-tickets (available on Advance fares between London & Manchester and London & Birmingham) will be sent directly to your phone once your booking is completed."

So looks like m-tickets are not available on non-Advance tickets.

 

[transmanche]

So looks like m-tickets are not available on non-Advance tickets.

Ah that's a shame, because I'd done something similar on FCC with their app.

Arrived at Cambridge to find massive queues and general disorganised chaos, so bought an m-ticket (with Network Railcard discount) on my phone and passed through the gates. Very convenient. (Maybe it was an FCC-only fare, which is why it was available as an m-ticket.)

Isn't it time that m-tickets were universally available for all journeys?

 

[island]

Ah that's a shame, because I'd done something similar on FCC with their app.

Arrived at Cambridge to find massive queues and general disorganised chaos, so bought an m-ticket (with Network Railcard discount) on my phone and passed through the gates. Very convenient. (Maybe it was an FCC-only fare, which is why it was available as an m-ticket.)

Isn't it time that m-tickets were universally available for all journeys?

There are problems with preventing multiple use on m-tickets where you do not have most of your stations gated, and where you wish to offer interavailable tickets but not all TOCs on which they have validity have the capacity to read them.

 

[yorkie]

If the CDF-BHM arrives on time, I'll easily make an earlier illegal VT connection to Coventry, but there certainly wouldn't be time to go the ticket office to buy a ticket.

If you catch an earlier service on an Advance, then you can (in theory) be charged a new ticket for your entire journey, priced at the lowest available fare (including Railcard discounts if applicable).

In practice, there is a good chance you will be allowed to take an earlier service as this may be seen as a reasonable "connection.

In this situation, do I have an "opportunity to buy" before my journey?

.....

I'm aware of the counter argument that I've invalidated my Advance ticket by not completing the full journey on that, which complicates matters....

Oh, you want to be treated as making two separate journeys?

In that case, the correct action would be an excess of the original ticket to a ticket that would would permit break of journey at Birmingham New Street (in practice such an excess is very rarely issued!) and a new, undiscounted, Anytime single ticket for the journey from Birmingham New Street to Coventry.

 

[BillyBoy]

Could you buy your Advance for Cardiff to Birmingham and separately, in advance, buy a Birmingham to Coventry Anytime Day Single (£2.90 as opposed to your £2.05 VT Only) then you could take any train to Coventry whatever time you arrived in Birmingham?

 

[Starmill]

Could you buy your Advance for Cardiff to Birmingham and separately, in advance, buy a Birmingham to Coventry Anytime Day Single (£2.90 as opposed to your £2.05 VT Only) then you could take any train to Coventry whatever time you arrived in Birmingham?

You took the words right out of my mouth! If you only want flexibility on the second leg of your journey then just buy a flexible ticket for that leg! When you apply the Railcard discount, the VT Only saving is only small anyway.

 

[MKB]

When I booked, some time ago, the CDF-BHM advance tickets were twice the price of the CDF-COV tickets, so it would not have been sensible to split!

I find this regularly with XC Advance tickets. They often price longer distance flows with a connection more cheaply than the component fares. NUN-BHM-MAN is another example being frequently cheaper than BHM-MAN. (NUN=Nuneaton, MAN=Manchester).

In any case, the complication with the Advance fares is a distraction to the question I was trying to pose. Let me give another example.

I regularly travel from NUN to Liverpool (LIV) at the weekend. I book a paid return fare from NUN to STA (Stafford) and use my Virgin Traveller membership to get a free ticket for the STA-LIV return.

It's frequently possible to get the illegal STA-LIV London Midland connection in Stafford and get to LIV much earlier, but I would need to be able to buy a new ticket on the STA-LIV train for that leg, without being penalty fared, and with access to off-peak fares and railcard discounts.

Surely the railway industry should provide a way of achieving that?

 

[Deerfold]

Surely the railway industry should provide a way of achieving that?

So you want to know how to get a ticket for a connection that is less than the minimum connection time but are not willing to buy the ticket in advance in case the connection doesn't work?

I'd probably just get a £2.05 single in advance if it usually works (having already saved half the fare by buying an Advance to COV instead of BHM).