Chester to Manchester - Northern Hub

[leejayd]

I read with interest the journey time from Chester to Manchester is targeted to be 40 minutes with northern hub dev.

Are we likely to see this happen? Find it hard to believe given the trip takes over 1hr today.

If it does happen it makes a manchester commute seem more interesting.

What do you think?

 

[merlodlliw]

I read with interest the journey time from Chester to Manchester is targeted to be 40 minutes with northern hub dev.

Are we likely to see this happen? Find it hard to believe given the trip takes over 1hr today.

If it does happen it makes a manchester commute seem more interesting.

What do you think?

The distance is around 30 miles ,cut out a few stops on certain trains why not. The old Llandudno/Manchester/Llandudno Club Train only stopped at Warrington & took less than 50 minutes over 60 years ago.

 

[leejayd]

So the speed increase is related to more trains per hour? No guarantee this will be offered as a service unless mentioned in the franchise?

 

[Penmorfa]

The distance is around 30 miles ,cut out a few stops on certain trains why not. The old Llandudno/Manchester/Llandudno Club Train only stopped at Warrington & took less than 50 minutes over 60 years ago.

Not quite, my Sept 1964 to June 1965 timetable shows it took 56 minutes from Chester to Manchester Exchange with a two minute stop at Warrington BQ..

 

[edwin_m]

I think there would be scope for a new Northern (or successor) service calling at all stations Manchester to Chester, so the ATW service can call at Warrington only. Combined with speed increases on the Chat Moss line that might be enough to give 40min.

 

[Welshman]

The distance is around 30 miles ,cut out a few stops on certain trains why not. The old Llandudno/Manchester/Llandudno Club Train only stopped at Warrington & took less than 50 minutes over 60 years ago.

Certainly, omitting a few stops would help - Helsby & Frodsham on the Llandudno trains if a local shuttle from Chester to Manchester were ever introduced [giving 2tph on that section].

Also cutting-out Earlestown or Newton Le-Willows. It's very slow, calling at both, In my experience very few passengers from North Wales and Chester alight there, and both are also served by Northern trains to Manchester.

Also, perhaps, diverting these trains back to Manchester Victoria. Again, in my experience, the section from Ordsall Lane to Piccadilly is very slow, often with a stand for signals at Deansgate and a crawl from there on.

With these changes, some reduction in journey-time should be possible, for I agree that in these days, 1 Hour to cover the 40 or so miles is not acceptable.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not quite, my Sept 1964 to June 1965 timetable shows it took 56 minutes from Chester to Manchester Exchange with a two minute stop at Warrington BQ..

I used to meet the Manchester Club( 430pm from Exchange then Vic) at Chester & on many occasions it arrived a few minutes early, I agree the timetable on the Up probably did say 56 minutes, but arrived a little earlier.
I remember the steam was switched to Old Trans Penine diesel stock, but returned to steam which was more reliable after a few problems, a well known North Wales driver,forget his name,drove the down when it returned to steam.
When I met the train for news at Rhyl,you could set your watch by it,under the Vale Road bridge at 6pm Monday to Friday.
I am sure a 175 three car could do the run stopping at Warrington only in 40 minutes.

 

[northwichcat]

I think there would be scope for a new Northern (or successor) service calling at all stations Manchester to Chester, so the ATW service can call at Warrington only. Combined with speed increases on the Chat Moss line that might be enough to give 40min.

I think it's actually the other way around. The ATW service would be extended to Manchester Airport and retain it's current stopping pattern while a service from Yorkshire (Hull or Leeds via Bradford) would extend to Chester and run semi-fast. If Selby-Hull and Warrington-Chester get electrified (both are future electrification possibilities) then it could be an electric service from Hull to Chester that runs the fast Manchester-Chester service,
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Find it hard to believe given the trip takes over 1hr today.

From the current timetable the quickest time I can see between Oxford Rd and Chester is 54 minutes (I've not checked every service) so from Manchester to Chester (opposed to Piccadilly which gets around 5 minutes extra recovery time in the Manchester direction) the journey time is quicker than you state.

It's worth noting an overnight service operating via Altrincham has done Chester-Piccadilly non-stop in 65 minutes, based on the Northern Rail timetable that wouldn't look to be possible (as Northern's service is 20 minutes slower than that) but removing the stops, running at a quiet time and using a 100mph train instead of a 75mph one makes it possible.

 

[Beveridges]

It would do it in 40 mins with a stop at Wazza and missing everything else out


That's provided it doesn't get held at Winwick jn and the improvements to linespeed on the NLE - Manchester part has been carried out

 

[Welshman]

I think it's actually the other way around. The ATW service would be extended to Manchester Airport and retain it's current stopping pattern while a service from Yorkshire (Hull or Leeds via Bradford) would extend to Chester and run semi-fast. If Selby-Hull and Warrington-Chester get electrified (both are future electrification possibilities) then it could be an electric service from Hull to Chester that runs the fast Manchester-Chester service,

I'm not doubting what you say, but it seems unreasonable to subject passengers from Llandudno [Bangor in one case] to Manchester to the all-stations stopper from Chester to Manchester!

If this service were to become limited stop and reach Manchester in 40-45 minutes, presumably, paths allowing, there would be more time for it to run regularly to Manchester Airport & return [as it would not need to depart Piccadilly westbound until about x05 to feed into the existing times from Chester onwards! This would be more productive than a unit sitting in Mayfield loop for 45 minutes out of every hour.

And who knows? If the proposed electrification from Warrington to Chester were to be extended along the North Wales coast, then it could also be an electric service running a fast service from North Wales to the Airport!

But, I know - sitting at my laptop with bright ideas is always easier than putting them into the timetable!

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not doubting what you say, but it seems unreasonable to subject passengers from Llandudno [Bangor in one case] to Manchester to the all-stations stopper from Chester to Manchester!

From what I understand Network Rail originally proposed a North Wales-Yorkshire service and a Chester-Manchester Airport stopping service but WAG didn't like the idea as they wanted North Wales to have a Manchester Airport service ahead of a Yorkshire service and didn't want to risk North Wales services going in to another franchise that they couldn't control.

I imagine WAG would probably like a Chester-Yorkshire service to be the stopping service but then why should Rhyl have a direct Airport service while towns in Cheshire don't get one?

And who knows? If the proposed electrification from Warrington to Chester were to be extended along the North Wales coast, then it could also be an electric service running a fast service from North Wales to the Airport!

There will only be 1 path from Chester-Warrington-Manchester Airport so a business case will need to be proven that North Wales can provide more Airport passengers than Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and Earlestown. Some of the latter could provide passengers who work at the Airport or the new Airport city who would then make daily return journeys opposed to just occasional journeys for holidays.

CP6 could see the extension of the Airport spur which would then make the quickest way to the Airport from North Wales via Northwich opposed to via Warrington.

 

[merlodlliw]

From what I understand Network Rail originally proposed a North Wales-Yorkshire service and a Chester-Manchester Airport stopping service but WAG didn't like the idea as they wanted North Wales to have a Manchester Airport service ahead of a Yorkshire service and didn't want to risk North Wales services going in to another franchise that they couldn't control.

I imagine WAG would probably like a Chester-Yorkshire service to be the stopping service but then why should Rhyl have a direct Airport service while towns in Cheshire don't get one?

I understood it was ATW who wanted a slice of Manchester Airport,not WG. Similar to ATW using Birmingham Airport.

 

[northwichcat]

I understood it was ATW who wanted a slice of Manchester Airport,not WG. Similar to ATW using Birmingham Airport.

If it is Arriva who pushed for the change they might have shot themselves in the foot considering:
* A regular Chester-Airport service won't start before the Ordsall Chord opens.
* ATW franchise ends in 2018 and could go to a rival company.
* Arriva could win the Northern or TPE franchises who have the majority of the Airport-Manchester services.
* The Airport-Manchester revenue won't be all that significant in comparison to other potential services or extensions ATW could run, especially considering the number of Airport-Manchester will increase.
* EMT might also start running Airport-Crewe services which could cut ATW's revenue share for some flows.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I understood it was ATW who wanted a slice of Manchester Airport,not WG. Similar to ATW using Birmingham Airport.

ORCATS raids dressed up as passenger improvements.

 

[driver_m]

The Earlestown and nlw stops won't get removed off arriva services because the lime st- Warrington bank quay service is supposed to be getting diverted to Manchester Victoria at some point. Can't see merseytravel being happy with any loss of stops even if the service was doubled. I think some people on here don't realise just how many people get on these services, particularly at peak hours. Bear in mind these services are very useful for a wide catchment area that takes in St Helens, Warrington, Leigh and Wigan.

The time lost doing 20mph through Earlestown means you may as well stop anyway. I would guess it is almost impossible to raise the speed through here.

 

[Beveridges]

The time lost doing 20mph through Earlestown means you may as well stop anyway. I would guess it is almost impossible to raise the speed through here.

Stopping there is still a lot slower than going through at 20mph though! Especially if the Guard is slow on the doors!

 

[leejayd]

I wait with interest to see if the 40 minute journey sees the light of day

 

[kieron]

There will only be 1 path from Chester-Warrington-Manchester Airport so a business case will need to be proven that North Wales can provide more Airport passengers than Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and Earlestown.

Commuters are less likely to use public transport for this, though, given that the airport has excellent road access from the west and plenty of parking spaces, and the train is rather indirect.

The Earlestown and nlw stops won't get removed off arriva services because the lime st- Warrington bank quay service is supposed to be getting diverted to Manchester Victoria at some point. Can't see merseytravel being happy with any loss of stops even if the service was doubled.

Merseytravel will adjust to the poorer access between the line through Rainhill and the WCML, I'm sure. There's not a huge amount the operator of a Chester-Manchester train can do to mitigate it given that the Northern and Arriva services currrently only overlap between Earlestown and Warrington, and Earlestown has an 8 minute minimum connection time to discourage anyone from using Arriva for one stop.

Newton-le-Willows-Manchester is certainly an important flow, but there are supposed to be extra trains for that.

Incidentally, I notice that Northern has an early morning ECS move from Victoria to Chester on Saturdays, timed at 47 minutes for a Sprinter. It uses the fast lines through Warrington, which helps, but I don't know how much scope there is for Chester trains to use these (and so be more exposed to unreliability in the Virgin services), or to speed up the slow lines enough to mitigate the delay from using them. It gives some indication of the scale of the challenge, anyway.

 

[Beveridges]

Incidentally, I notice that Northern has an early morning ECS move from Victoria to Chester on Saturdays, timed at 47 minutes for a Sprinter.

Thats with stock that is slower top speed/acceleration / braking than a 175.

If the line gets electrified it's going to be even more different.

Is the proposed 40 minutes journey time supposed to be achieved before or after electrification ?

A car can get from Manchester to Chester in 45 minutes (sticking to road speed limts) and an express train should always be able to beat the car.

 

[kieron]

This is with slow accelerating, slow braking, 75mph stock.

On a 175 it's different.

On a 175 which has to stop between Chester and Manchester and uses the slow lines through Warrington it's different again. There is an ECS 175 move (although only from Warrington to Manchester on this line) which is timetabled for 26.5 minutes between the slow line at Warrington and Manchester Piccadilly, slightly longer than a Northern Sprinter scheduled to go from Chester to Manchester in 49 minutes later that day. Perhaps the planners would be more optimistic about a passenger service's timings, though.

 

[thealexweb]

With the North Wales electrification coming won't all the Arriva Trains Wales move over to Newton Li Willows route entirely to take advantage of EMUs?

 

[YorkshireBear]

With the North Wales electrification coming won't all the Arriva Trains Wales move over to Newton Li Willows route entirely to take advantage of EMUs?

When is this?

 

[thealexweb]

When is this?

We don't have a fixed completion date just a firm commitment that it will happen sometime. I read in a railway magazine 2020 was being thrown around.

 

[kieron]

With the North Wales electrification coming won't all the Arriva Trains Wales move over to Newton Li Willows route entirely to take advantage of EMUs?

They only go through Knutsford so they can divert Manchester-Chester passengers onto that line if their normal route is blocked. If they switched to electric trains, they'd probably advise people to go via Crewe instead.

 

[merlodlliw]

With the North Wales electrification coming won't all the Arriva Trains Wales move over to Newton Li Willows route entirely to take advantage of EMUs?

We hope its coming,but there is no commitment yet.
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ORCATS raids dressed up as passenger improvements.

Correct,the sole reason in my book for ATWs adventure into the airport.

 

[northwichcat]

Commuters are less likely to use public transport for this, though, given that the airport has excellent road access from the west and plenty of parking spaces, and the train is rather indirect.

There's plenty of people unemployed in the Warrington area and I imagine a lot of them don't have cars so would rely on a train or bus to get to any potential job.
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They only go through Knutsford so they can divert Manchester-Chester passengers onto that line if their normal route is blocked. If they switched to electric trains, they'd probably advise people to go via Crewe instead.

The problem has been during disruption/engineering works when ATW have not diverted trains to Manchester such as when the Chester-Earlestown line has been open (and they've terminated trains there instead of diverting) or when ATW have been refused paths through Stockport the alternative trains have been unable to cope with loadings. Some of the Crewe-Manchester and Knutsford-Manchester trains are packed normally without any extra passengers.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

I wait with interest to see if the 40 minute journey sees the light of day

It looks like a target which was abandoned at an early stage of the Northern Hub. The Technical Study (pdf) shows the following targets for journey times from Manchester.
• Leeds 40 minutes
• Bradford 50 minutes
• Sheffield 40 minutes
• Chester 40 minutes
• Liverpool 30 minutes
• Preston 30 minutes.
But for all but the Liverpool (and possibly Leeds) target times, the Study said "Journey time analysis and high level cost assessment did not identify value for money interventions to deliver the target journey time in CP5" and instead "Incremental journey time improvement opportunities to be developed at a later stage".

So the targets were pie in the sky.

 

[The Planner]

Stopping there is still a lot slower than going through at 20mph though! Especially if the Guard is slow on the doors!

Which has nothing to do with a timetable.... 1 minute difference in timings if a 30 sec dwell for Earlestown is used.
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Perhaps the planners would be more optimistic about a passenger service's timings, though.

Shouldn't make any difference, the passenger time would be the same as an ECS if it had the same schedule.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So the targets were pie in the sky.

I should think this will be revisited if Warrington-Chester gets wired.
You can't do much at Earlestown or down to Acton Grange, but the 75mph line could be improved through Helsby (40mph) if the Ellesmere Port double junction was downsized.
The approach to Chester is also very slow (approach controlled and a long 20mph roll in).
However, Runcorn East is quite a busy station and Halton would grumble if it was omitted.
Frodsham and Helsby don't generate much traffic considering their size (nothing like as much as the Welsh stations on the route for instance).

 

[northwichcat]

Frodsham and Helsby don't generate much traffic considering their size (nothing like as much as the Welsh stations on the route for instance).

As far as I can see Abergele and Pensarn railway station is the only station the Welsh side with the same service frequency as Frodsham and Helsby. Abergele is similar in size to Frodsham but Abergele and Pensarn gets much less rail usage.

Of course if you give stations like Flint a more frequent service and a greater range of destinations then it'll get more rail usage as people will railhead to Flint station rather than people from Flint railheading to other stations.