Re-openening Colne to Skipton, 'Financially Viable'

[Bald Rick]

Thing is, there are surely better reopening prospects in E Lancs that this is overshadowing. For example there is a 20km line that if reopened would connect 4 towns and about 100,000 people to the national rail network, with potential for through trains to Manchester, and conceivably W Yorkshire also. Even better the formation is intact, and even has the track in place, most of which is in good condition. Thus the reopening cost will be relatively low, and the benefits will be relatively high, particularly for the 100,000 people reconnected.

If SELRAP has a 6:1 BCR, imagine what reopening the line from Rawtenstall, Haslingden and Ramsbottom to Heywood would be. Where is the campaign for the reinstatement of the East Lancs railway to the national network? Wouldn't this be a better use of resources to improve rail connectivity in East Lancs? Especially if you wanted to get a train in Winter, or on a Tuesday, or before 0900?

 

[yorksrob]

Thing is, there are surely better reopening prospects in E Lancs that this is overshadowing. For example there is a 20km line that if reopened would connect 4 towns and about 100,000 people to the national rail network, with potential for through trains to Manchester, and conceivably W Yorkshire also. Even better the formation is intact, and even has the track in place, most of which is in good condition. Thus the reopening cost will be relatively low, and the benefits will be relatively high, particularly for the 100,000 people reconnected.

If SELRAP has a 6:1 BCR, imagine what reopening the line from Rawtenstall, Haslingden and Ramsbottom to Heywood would be. Where is the campaign for the reinstatement of the East Lancs railway to the national network? Wouldn't this be a better use of resources to improve rail connectivity in East Lancs? Especially if you wanted to get a train in Winter, or on a Tuesday, or before 0900?

I can see your point, but political and public momentum are also important for reopening. I'd love to imagine lots of these other reopenings, but if no ones campaigning for them, they're not going to happen.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can see your point, but political and public momentum are also important for reopening. I'd love to imagine lots of these other reopenings, but if no ones campaigning for them, they're not going to happen.

I suppose my point is why is there a campaign for reopening a line that, being blunt, is a no hoper, whilst there is no campaign for reopening a line just down the road that probably has a good case? Because even great campaigns will fail if there isn't sound evidence to back it*

This is important for the railway, as energy is being wasted on pointless projects, whilst opportunities elsewhere are missed.

* that's except for viewers in Scotland

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose my point is why is there a campaign for reopening a line that, being blunt, is a no hoper, whilst there is no campaign for reopening a line just down the road that probably has a good case? Because even great campaigns will fail if there isn't sound evidence to back it*

* that's except for viewers in Scotland

Like I say, it depends on what this BCR turns out to be. I still think the costings for Tavistock are a potential game changer.

 

[Hardcastle]

If it works with reopenings in Scotland am sure in can work here it should never have closed in the 1st place.

 

[34D]

Surely people in Nelson/ Burnley/ Colne are looking forward to a direct service to Keighley, where the streets are paved with gold?

As Burnley, Nelson and also Keighley/Bradford are big Asian areas, could it be that demand for a service could come from that community?

 

[billio]

Thing is, there are surely better reopening prospects in E Lancs that this is overshadowing. For example there is a 20km line that if reopened would connect 4 towns and about 100,000 people to the national rail network, with potential for through trains to Manchester, and conceivably W Yorkshire also. Even better the formation is intact, and even has the track in place, most of which is in good condition. Thus the reopening cost will be relatively low, and the benefits will be relatively high, particularly for the 100,000 people reconnected.

If SELRAP has a 6:1 BCR, imagine what reopening the line from Rawtenstall, Haslingden and Ramsbottom to Heywood would be. Where is the campaign for the reinstatement of the East Lancs railway to the national network? Wouldn't this be a better use of resources to improve rail connectivity in East Lancs? Especially if you wanted to get a train in Winter, or on a Tuesday, or before 0900?

The towns north of Manchester are poorly served as regard to connections to the national railway network, particularly Oldham and Bury. Metrolink, whilst good for local travel, is a poor substitute for access to trains going further afield. A population of approaching 1 million with only 2 lines passing through.

 

[Hardcastle]

Are they the missing links with no through traffic ? Bolton-Bury-Rochdale should never have closed but that now upto TFGM to deal with.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The towns north of Manchester are poorly served as regard to connections to the national railway network, particularly Oldham and Bury. Metrolink, whilst good for local travel, is a poor substitute for access to trains going further afield. A population of approaching 1 million with only 2 lines passing through.

If you view the Manchester Metrolink system in the same light as the London Underground system in terms of local feeder connectivity into the main hub railway network, you will understand matters better.

 

[s&crailproject]

Fair point. Has anyone actually seen this study yet anyway ?

The SELRAP/ARUP Grip 2 study or part 1B, hasn't been made fully public, with only highlights brought to the attention of our members, and guests at the AGM.
Once Lancashire CC and North Yorkshire CC have had their input in to the study, this will be released for publc consumption.

But in the mean time please see the SELRAP/ARUP STUDY Part 1A: View attachment ARUP 1a report-1.pdfPart 1A

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The sad truth is that East Lancashire currently generates no rail freight at all. The last remaining freight facilities are at Blackburn in the shape of Calligraphers. The last train to use these facilities ran last year and I am unaware of any plans for a new contract. The only freight traffic through the area originates elsewhere: Preston Docks branch and Castle Cement at Clitheroe. The remainder are merely passing through from further afield. I can't see Burnley to Skipton as being anything other than a purely passenger railway.

The mention of freight patterns in the old days that no longer exist can be summed up in part of the poem by Stanley Accrington called "The Last Train" for which I beg forbearance in quoting:-

"I can stand in the car park, remembering old tales
Of a station that's long since pulled down,
Of fly-shunted wagons that ran off the rails
Ending in the centre of town
Now the juggernauts carry what's left of the trade
With the cotton bales piled high upon
And where I worked with me mates is now a housing estate
And the last train from Royton has gone"

 

[Deerfold]

If there was such a stated demand for a better public transport link from Colne eastwards, would there need to be an even better existing bus service pattern to meet this demand, prior to the reinstement of any railway service ?

Since I moved to the Keighley area 6 years ago the Mainine bus service has doubled from hourly to half-hourly between Nelson, Burnley, Colne and Keighley - and has (unsubsidised) extended the last bus from approx 1930 to approx 2130.

This service is often very busy.

Transdev have also introduced a half hourly service between Nelson, Burnley, Colne and Skipton as well as the hourly Pennine service from Burnley and Colne to Skipton.

 

[Howardh]

NW Manchester + Bolton - Blackburn - Skipton - Settle. Ideal for a day out, even if you have to change twice! Let's hope it happens.

 

[34D]

Since I moved to the Keighley area 6 years ago the Mainine bus service has doubled from hourly to half-hourly between Nelson, Burnley, Colne and Keighley - and has (unsubsidised) extended the last bus from approx 1930 to approx 2130.

This service is often very busy.

Transdev have also introduced a half hourly service between Nelson, Burnley, Colne and Skipton as well as the hourly Pennine service from Burnley and Colne to Skipton.

I understand Pennine are to cease trading due to pressure from Transdev

 

[Deerfold]

I understand Pennine are to cease trading due to pressure from Transdev

That's a shame, but I'm not altogether surprised with Transdev providing double the level of service, and both evening and Sunday services.

Even if the Pennine service disappears the service level will still be more than double that before Transdev expanded north.

 

[Lankyline]

Taken from the SELRAP/ARUP STUDY Part 1A link kindly supplied by s&crailproject

"The analysis presented in this note shows only the work done to date. Future
updating of the business case will help to refine the scheme cost and benefits.
A large number of changes have taken place since the previous business cases
were developed and these could have a significant impact on the current
business case. These changes include the announcement of the Northern Hub
which will deliver a step change in rail connectivity across the north of
England, especially the North West and the confirmation of the Todmorden
Curve scheme which will dramatically improve connectivity from Burnley to
Manchester."

The following is just a brief snapshot of what i have read but at no stage does the report mention a BCR of 6, also estimated base costs for single track with optimum bias GRIP3 £53.49m Double track ££101.38m.(incidentally BCR figure for doubling was 1.53) The preferred cost option at this time is for single track

The 2007 report also estimated 341k passengers a year usage for 2014. To take a cynical view, i think that they are trying to move the goalposts to help justify the project, eg waitng for 2011 census data, as the original report did not come out favourably for reinstating the line.

Be interesting to see what conclusions anyone else draws from this

 

[Bald Rick]

Be interesting to see what conclusions anyone else draws from this

Main conclusion: the construction costs are woefully underestimated. As an indicator, double track railways do not cost roughly double a single track railway.

 

[yorksrob]

The SELRAP/ARUP Grip 2 study or part 1B, hasn't been made fully public, with only highlights brought to the attention of our members, and guests at the AGM.
Once Lancashire CC and North Yorkshire CC have had their input in to the study, this will be released for publc consumption.

But in the mean time please see the SELRAP/ARUP STUDY Part 1A: View attachment 17513Part 1A

I look forward to seeing it in due course (and I hope you succeed in spite of all the naysayers !).

 

[Lankyline]

I look forward to seeing it in due course (and I hope you succeed in spite of all the naysayers !).

Ok I'll bite ?????? i honestly can't see this succeeding anytime soon, my impression is that SELRAP is more style than substance, its ok to have political support but its only effective if that support is consistently vocal and is of course in todays political world beneficial to both parties.

I don't hear much from the MP's connected with this project, i wonder if that's because they feel the case for reopening isn't that strong but its good political capital to be seen to be associated.

I'm all for reopening rail links but as we all know they have to be based on sound economic & business reasons not nostalgia and emotion. Even if this line opened what level of subsidy would it need ? Rolling stock ? Paths etc etc. I still stand by my initial impression that it's a" talking shop" with good PR

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I understand Pennine are to cease trading due to pressure from Transdev

No-one from Pennine are prepared to talk to members of the general public about this matter today.

 

[Ploughman]

I take it then that the reopened Bus Garage on Broughton Rd at Skipton will close for the second time?

 

[yorksrob]

Ok I'll bite ?????? i honestly can't see this succeeding anytime soon, my impression is that SELRAP is more style than substance, its ok to have political support but its only effective if that support is consistently vocal and is of course in todays political world beneficial to both parties.

I don't hear much from the MP's connected with this project, i wonder if that's because they feel the case for reopening isn't that strong but its good political capital to be seen to be associated.

I'm all for reopening rail links but as we all know they have to be based on sound economic & business reasons not nostalgia and emotion. Even if this line opened what level of subsidy would it need ? Rolling stock ? Paths etc etc. I still stand by my initial impression that it's a" talking shop" with good PR

Well, I‘m not deliberately being contrary (I've had a long discussion on this route with others with whom I regularly cross swords, suffice to say, political agitation is very important. I have every admiration for SELRAP. They have garnered support. They have got the cause noticed and they have gone through the process of getting the various studies done.

A local passenger railway needs to be wanted by the local population, and theu have done as much as any campaign to show that is the case.

I'm often accused of being "nostalgic" for wanting railways reopened, but if I were being nostalgic, I would probably call for a more picturesque reopening like Darlington to Appleby via Stainforth. I'd like to see useful railways for communities put back where people need them.

(If I was in a nostalgic mood, I'd be fantasising about the Southern Region in the NSE era anyway !).

 

[AndyHudds]

Don't Burnley have a lot of season ticket holders/fans in Skipton and Keighley? Not saying this alone is justification for the opening of the line but it gives a market at least, if a little limited. They have a supporters club based in Skipton called Craven Clarets.

 

[spongsdad]

Don't Burnley have a lot of season ticket holders/fans in Skipton and Keighley? Not saying this alone is justification for the opening of the line but it gives a market at least, if a little limited. They have a supporters club based in Skipton called Craven Clarets.

Not sure that football supporters (even those as well behaved as the Burnley fans ) would be the best rationale for re-opening a railway line. Still, as someone once said, "Every little helps."

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't Burnley have a lot of season ticket holders/fans in Skipton and Keighley? Not saying this alone is justification for the opening of the line but it gives a market at least, if a little limited. They have a supporters club based in Skipton called Craven Clarets.

A couple of coaches 23 times a year is surely an easier, more flexible, and somewhat cheaper, option than 14 odd miles of new railway.

 

[bluenoxid]

A couple of coaches 23 times a year is surely an easier, more flexible, and somewhat cheaper, option than 14 odd miles of new railway.

Does Colne have any Leeds Utd and Bradford City fans

 

[yorksrob]

A couple of coaches 23 times a year is surely an easier, more flexible, and somewhat cheaper, option than 14 odd miles of new railway.

Well, just because the above poster has identified a potential flow of traffic, it doesn't really mean he's assuming it's the only flow of traffic does it

 

[AndyHudds]

Does Colne have any Leeds Utd and Bradford City fans

Leeds fans live everywhere except Leeds!!

 

[Bald Rick]

Leeds fans live everywhere except Leeds!!

In which case, move Elland Rd to Manchester Airport and everyone's happy!

(Gets coat and resigns from thread)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does Colne have any Leeds Utd and Bradford City fans

For those with good memories, the rise and fall of Colne Dynamos, aided at first by much financial input from a certain personage, was indeed a wonder to behold.