Staff on trains - shifts etc

[plastictaffy]

I'm really surprised how tight that meal relief is; whilst I thought a half hour one was pretty standard from I've usually heard of; it's usually a bit more on either end that isn't part of the official break. If I'm reading that right then just a 5 Min delay will cause your next train to be late after walking times.

You are indeed reading it right. There's some that are tighter than that. I know it's not after a break, but I'll share it nonetheless. For example, in the old diagrams, we had a job that arrived into Euston (booked for platform 6, mind) at 1642, and we were expected to dispose of the 4 car you'd brought in and get round to platform 18 to work the 1650 - booked for a 12 car, no less. The couple of times I worked it, it ran late. We're allowed 2 (I think) minutes to lock the unit up, and 5 minutes walking time. By the time you've got yourself on board, opened the doors, made your announcement yadda-yadda-yadda, it'd miss it's path and leave 5-7 minutes down. Funny enough, it came out when the timetable was re-done, and you now have your PNB before you work it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But on the other hand, we have one where you work a Crewe service from MKC into Euston, sit for 55 minutes, take the same unit back to the Keynes, sit for an hour to work the next one into Euston, sit there for another 55 minutes to take the same unit back to the Keynes........madness.

 

[6Gman]

I used to be a diagrammer at Crewe regional headquarters.

It was a complicated job!

Re: route cards, we had a summary for each depot which recorded how many drivers signed each route. An added complication was that certain combination of routes could not be used. Nottingham drivers were a mix of existing Nottm guys and staff who had transferred from Derby. Only the ex-Nottm men signed Skegness; only the ex-Derby men signed Matlock.

So you couldn't put Skeg and Matlock on the same day's work.

It was fun!

 

[455driver]

It was fun!

That wouldnt be my first choice of phrase for a diagrammers job, thankless or annoying yes, but fun, no!

I used to do it when I was on the buses the original way with a huge sheet of paper, a pencil and a rubber.

 

[306024]

That wouldnt be my first choice of phrase for a diagrammers job, thankless or annoying yes, but fun, no!

I used to do it when I was on the buses the original way with a huge sheet of paper, a pencil and a rubber.

Paper, pencil and a huge rubber is still the best way If you enjoy logical problem solving it saves buying a sudoku puzzle book.

I've always enjoyed diagramming rather than timetabling, even the diagram consultation meetings with the union reps

.........we had a job that arrived into Euston (booked for platform 6, mind) at 1642, and we were expected to dispose of the 4 car you'd brought in and get round to platform 18 to work the 1650 - booked for a 12 car, no less. The couple of times I worked it, it ran late.......

No wonder, how on earth did that ever get off the drawing board?

 

[craigybagel]

Guards must also sign routes, just like drivers - we're also tested on it, but obviously not in as much depth as the guys on the front. On the routes I sign, I'm expected to know stations, junctions - and the possibilities through them, tunnels, viaducts and neutral sections. We also need to know which platforms will accept a 12 car train and which won't. Also little things like - must be in the rear of an 8 car on arrival at New Street, and Platform 10 at Watford is assisted despatch, as the signal is the wrong side for us. Also platform 17 at Euston is a good one as there is a platform both sides. Open on the right for a 4 car and an 8 car, but if you were ever signalled in there with a 12 car, you must open on the left. Also they like us to know which lines are bi-directional and which lines allow permissive working.
If you've not been over a route for a certain amount of times (6 months at my place) you can request a route refresh for it, and if it's been over 12 months since you've been over a certain piece of track, you can have it removed from your route card. Which reminds me, I must get my refresh request in for the Willesden relief lines...........

Guards also need to learn a lot of other things about the stations they serve than drivers, some things are obvious as Plastictaffy has stated, then there are the other things like where is the ramp kept can a wheelchair user leave the platform/station (at some stations only certain platforms are wheelchair accessible*), wrong side signals, off indicators, possible distractions etc,

A guards job is certainly a lot more than just opening the doors!

Don't forget the most important thing - the knowledge of where to go for the best food! But not Sainsbury's of course

Some also learn the ticket office opening hours for the "but the ticket office was closed" brigade.

My conscience is so much clearer now when I turn down Evening returns out of New Street now I know the booking office is open till 11!

Seriously though, one of the routes down our way is so remote, on one of our trips learning it we have to be accompanied by a Conductor manager, so that we can get shown how to manually override the points and the level crossings. It gets pretty hands on going down there, even when everything is working!

 

[LowLevel]

Not to mention some guards still sign groundframes and the like as shunters, then you have things like remember every station where you can't detrain wheelchair users for operational reasons (narrow platforms, excessive low platforms etc) and have to provide alternative transport (or have half a conversation filmed and end up on the national news, either or seems to be de rigeur).

 

[bunnahabhain]

Most jobs don't have a ride home but some do. Today I've got a ride back on the cushions from Ipswich to Norwich, not sure what the longest pass trips are out there.

Norwich/Manchester/Liverpool to Nottingham are three of our longest passes for Conductors and Drivers

 

[telstarbox]

Which drivers and guards sign the most and least track (in distance terms)? For short branches like Sheerness are there dedicated links?

 

[plastictaffy]

No wonder, how on earth did that ever get off the drawing board?

Because the official walking time and dispose ECS time fitted, I guess. Someone wasn't thinking about how Euston is in the Peak. Even when it's not busy, it would be tight.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which drivers and guards sign the most and least track (in distance terms)? For short branches like Sheerness are there dedicated links?

Watford based Guards sign Euston - Northampton and the St Albans Abbey Branch. No drivers based there. Traction wise, they sign 350's and 321's.

Bletchley Guards should sign Euston - New Street via Northampton and via Weedon. They should also sign the Bedford line. 2 links for Guards. All Guards should sign all 4 (350, 321, 150, 153) types of traction, too.
Drivers have different route cards. Some sign Euston - Rugby both ways. Some only sign as far as Northampton. Some sign both. Some drivers sign all the above plus the Abbey Branch, plus the Bedford line. Some sign from Euston all the way to New Street but don't sign Bedford!! A lot of it depends on the link they're in, I believe.
Traction wise, some sign only 350's, some sign 321's and 350's. Some sign 350's, 150's and 153's, and some sign all four.

Northampton Guards sign Euston - New Street via Northampton and via Weedon. Link 1 Guards at Northampton sign Crewe plus diversionaries. I believe Link 2 Guards have started route learning. Northampton drivers sign as Bletchley, but without Bedfords or Abbeys, and some of them sign Crewe.
Northampton drivers should sign 350's and 321's. However, some only sign 350's.

Coventry Guards sign Northampton - New Street, plus some of the cross-city lines. They also sign Coventry - Nuneaton. They sign 350's, 323's and 153's, traction wise. They used to sign 321's, but not any more, as they don't go any further north than Rugby. (and they only go there to reverse when the Northampton line is shut from the South)
Drivers I believe sign the same.

 

[LowLevel]

Some EMT Nottingham guards sign over 450 track miles including diversionary routes.

 

[plastictaffy]

That's a hell of a route card!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And about five types of traction?? HST's, 170's, 222, 158's and 153's??

 

[LowLevel]

Local Nottingham guards (who have said huge route card) sign 153/156/158 and some sign HSTs.

The route mileage is (there's not many who sign all of it but the odd few do):

Liverpool to Manchester via Patricroft or Widnes
Manchester to Sheffield via Romiley or Stockport
Sheffield to Chesterfield via Beighton or Dronfield
Chesterfield to Nottingham via Derby or Alfreton with Toton also as a diversionary route
Nottingham to Norwich via Grantham or Melton Mowbray
Nottingham to Leicester
Derby (Nottingham) to Matlock
Derby to Crewe
Nottingham to Worksop via Hucknall or Pinxton
Nottingham to Skegness
Nottingham to Lincoln
Lincoln to Peterborough via Sleaford and Spalding.

So plenty of variety to be had there!

Nottingham mainline guards are a lot more restricted in terms of their routes though.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Local Nottingham guards (who have said huge route card) sign 153/156/158 and some sign HSTs.

The route mileage is (there's not many who sign all of it but the odd few do):

Liverpool to Manchester via Patricroft or Widnes
Manchester to Sheffield via Romiley or Stockport
Sheffield to Chesterfield via Beighton or Dronfield
Chesterfield to Nottingham via Derby or Alfreton with Toton also as a diversionary route
Nottingham to Norwich via Grantham or Melton Mowbray
Nottingham to Leicester
Derby (Nottingham) to Matlock
Derby to Crewe
Nottingham to Worksop via Hucknall or Pinxton
Nottingham to Skegness
Nottingham to Lincoln
Lincoln to Peterborough via Sleaford and Spalding.

So plenty of variety to be had there!

Nottingham mainline guards are a lot more restricted in terms of their routes though.

You generally sign for Crewe or for the Joint Line as they are separate links, we also sign Ely West Curve, Toton Low Level and High Level. Route mileage is actually a lot closer to around 700miles if you sign everything (which a small number do).

 

[infobleep]

You are indeed reading it right. There's some that are tighter than that. I know it's not after a break, but I'll share it nonetheless. For example, in the old diagrams, we had a job that arrived into Euston (booked for platform 6, mind) at 1642, and we were expected to dispose of the 4 car you'd brought in and get round to platform 18 to work the 1650 - booked for a 12 car, no less. The couple of times I worked it, it ran late. We're allowed 2 (I think) minutes to lock the unit up, and 5 minutes walking time. By the time you've got yourself on board, opened the doors, made your announcement yadda-yadda-yadda, it'd miss it's path and leave 5-7 minutes down. Funny enough, it came out when the timetable was re-done, and you now have your PNB before you work it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But on the other hand, we have one where you work a Crewe service from MKC into Euston, sit for 55 minutes, take the same unit back to the Keynes, sit for an hour to work the next one into Euston, sit there for another 55 minutes to take the same unit back to the Keynes........madness.

Would that happen to be London Midland. I always through their turn around times at Tring were too short during peak rush hour.

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[craigybagel]

Which drivers and guards sign the most and least track (in distance terms)? For short branches like Sheerness are there dedicated links?

Newcastle top link drivers for East Coast sign all the way from Inverness and Aberdeen to London. Preston drivers for Virgin sign Glasgow (and for top link Edinburgh as well) to London, which isn't as far, but there's a lot of diversion routes in there as well. Exeter HSS for FGW drivers sign Penzance to London, including multiple possible routes east of Exeter.

On the guards side, you probably have similarly large route cards at the above depots, plus the likes of XC at Birmingham, who's TM's sign either Newcastle or Manchester to Birmingham, and then in both cases I believe all the way to Plymouth and to Bournemouth.

Even as a regional guard, I probably sign around 400 miles of track, I haven't sat down and added it all up yet.

 

[infobleep]

How do you remember everything with so many stations; tunnels and everything else your expected to know along a route. Can't be easy.

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[A-driver]

How do you remember everything with so many stations; tunnels and everything else your expected to know along a route. Can't be easy.

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You simply spend days going over it learning it and then go out driving it day in day out as a job. If you drive your car to the same place day in day out you will get to know the road just as well.

When you have a large route card with routes on it that you have little work over then you do notice that you are less confident driving it but certainly when sitting at the front holding the controls it all tends to come flooding back.

 

[Hyphen]

plus the likes of XC at Birmingham, who's TM's sign either Newcastle or Manchester to Birmingham, and then in both cases I believe all the way to Plymouth and to Bournemouth.

Do the XC TMs who sign the Voyager routes also work on the Cardiff-Nottingham and Birmingham-Stansted routes?

 

[craigybagel]

Do the XC TMs who sign the Voyager routes also work on the Cardiff-Nottingham and Birmingham-Stansted routes?

No (other than the once or twice a day visits of Voyagers to Cardiff and Nottingham), it's a seperate link of Senior Conductors who work the Class 170 routes, on different Salary and T&C's.

 

[455driver]

No (other than the once or twice a day visits of Voyagers to Cardiff and Nottingham), it's a seperate link of Senior Conductors who work the Class 170 routes, on different Salary and T&C's.

Ex Central T&Cs, Bristol is the only driver depot that signs all XC travtion.

 

[windnoise69]

Bristol XC Don't sign all traction.

They have a small number of senior conductors for CDF-BHM and the Train managers sign BHM-PLY/PGN/CDF

 

[455driver]

The drivers do!

 

[Minilad]

Ex Central T&Cs, Bristol is the only driver depot that signs all XC travtion.

Birmingham do too

 

[Qwerty133]

You generally sign for Crewe or for the Joint Line as they are separate links, we also sign Ely West Curve, Toton Low Level and High Level. Route mileage is actually a lot closer to around 700miles if you sign everything (which a small number do).

Is work grouped so they work the same lines for a couple of weeks and then move elsewhere? (I don't see guards for months and then see them a few times close together, except 1 who is nearly always on the same train each week (Thursday mornings))

 

[craigybagel]

Birmingham do too

Unless things have changed, there is no link at Birmingham that signs all 3 of 170,220 and HST. Some sign just 170s, some 170s and 220s, some 220s and HSTs.

Is work grouped so they work the same lines for a couple of weeks and then move elsewhere? (I don't see guards for months and then see them a few times close together, except 1 who is nearly always on the same train each week (Thursday mornings))

Normally it's pretty random, or at least not deliberately done that you end up on the same route for a while but it does sometimes work out that way. One of my lines I've been down 3 times in the last couple of weeks, having not been down it for 2 months or so before. It's done in whatever way is most efficient.

You can though get guards on special rosters, possibly from being part time or some other form of accomodated working, who always do the same trains. We have some staff doing job shares at our depot and they always work the same train, on the same days of the week.

 

[Minilad]

Unless things have changed, there is no link at Birmingham that signs all 3 of 170,220 and HST. Some sign just 170s, some 170s and 220s, some 220s and HSTs.

Yes then. It has changed. But the OP didn't say all drivers at the depot

 

[TheEdge]

Random and fairly related question.

What are the diagrams for the crews for the various sleepers?

 

[infobleep]

How many drivers are required for a sleeper back in the days of steam train sleepers how would they do it?

Are there any books on people who worked the sleeper trains and how they operated over the years?

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[dannypye9999]

Do they still run staff trains during the night between Stockport and Piccadilly? I remember in 1990 as a small boy I used to go with my uncle who worked in the depot in longsight at weekends and we used to ride a staff train about 2am to and from Stockport. It was a single carriage DMU.

 

[Beveridges]

I doubt it. There are a couple of staff trains which run between Manchester Victoria and Newton Heath in the early hours of the morning however. Usually 156's.