Staff on trains - shifts etc

[paulfoel]

As someone who until recently never used the trains regularly, interested to see the same guards etc on the trains these days. Seems to be a rota.

Im guessing generally guard starts from their home station and the rotas are done as such so that they end up back there after their work is finished. Must be a logistical nightmare working this one out.

After all, I cant see someone being happy working 8 hours then finishing in Scotland when they live in London! (even if they get free ride home).

 

[Greenback]

Diagrams are pretty complicated. It's like an enormous jigsaw puzzle. All services need to be covered according to the various rules and agreements that exist on working hours, route knowledge and so on.

Generally, guards are allocated to a 'depot' and their turns of duty will usually start and finish there. Sometimes they will be taken by a taxi to a different location to pick up their first train, sometimes they will travel as a passenger if there is a suitable train, which isn;t so likely at say 0400 when a mate of mine books on at Reading to work a service from, say, Guildford.

A PNB (Personal Needs Break) will have to be worked in to the diagram according to local arrangments. A further complication is that train crew can't operate over routes they are unfamiliar with.

I don't think that there ar emany lodging turns left these days. They used to be pretty common. There definitely aren't any on the Valley Lines, which is the last set of diagrams I looked at!

 

[TheEdge]

We often work similar trains in the same week, this week for example I am spending a fair bit of time on the East Suffolk Line so it is possible to see the same guard over and over again.

Yes, we start and finish at our home depot. Not too bad on rural TOCs with lots of out and back trains. Most jobs don't have a ride home but some do. Today I've got a ride back on the cushions from Ipswich to Norwich, not sure what the longest pass trips are out there.

*Edit*

I see lodging turns mentioned. We've sort of got one at Norwich, work the 22.40 to Cambridge then wait there to work back the first down train the next day.

 

[paulfoel]

OK. Very interesting. So you do get paid on journey back to home depot? Would be unfair otherwise I guess.

The train I use every day is Cardiff - Nottingham (although I only go newport-Gloucester) and do see the same staff for a few days every few weeks. I think its 3-4 hours each way so assume that maybe a days work would trip out then trip back?

 

[Greenback]

Travelling time, whether 'on the cushions' or by road is always part of the working day.

I can't speak for the XC diagrams for Cardiff-Nottingham, but on ATW there are out and back runs such as Cardiff - Merthyr, but there are a lot of crew changes that take place on longer distance services. Travel from Milford Haven and Manchester (obviously impossible to do out an back in one day) and you may see a crew change at Carmarthen, Swansea, Cardiff, Shrewsbury and Crewe. I've never seen a change at Hereford, but it could happen there too.

It's all part of the big jigsaw to ensure that services are covered in the most economical manner while adhering to the rules and regulations.

 

[GodAtum]

I've taken more or less the same train for 3 years and havent seen the same guard more then once a week.

 

[Greenback]

I've taken more or less the same train for 3 years and havent seen the same guard more then once a week.

I sense a pattern on my local service where my favourite train often has the same guard on a Wednesday and Thursday...

 

[trentside]

Yes, we start and finish at our home depot. Not too bad on rural TOCs with lots of out and back trains. Most jobs don't have a ride home but some do. Today I've got a ride back on the cushions from Ipswich to Norwich, not sure what the longest pass trips are out there.

East Midlands Trains guards at Nottingham travel on the morning ECS to Liverpool Lime Street, departs Nottingham at 0400 and arrives at 0613 - that must be a contender, though obviously the train is not in passenger service!

 

[craigybagel]

I see lodging turns mentioned. We've sort of got one at Norwich, work the 22.40 to Cambridge then wait there to work back the first down train the next day.

ATW have one with the last Cardiff-Hereford at night, a Cardiff crew bring it up, spend a few hours in Hereford and then bring it back down to Cardiff first thing in the morning. Virgin have at least one for drivers, with a Euston driver working Euston to Wolverhampton late at night, then bringing one back to London the next morning

East Coast still have proper lodging turns though, for Newcastle drivers at Inverness, and I believe Grand Central and Hull Trains do as well in London?

I've never seen a change at Hereford, but it could happen there too.

Only one diagrammed as far as I know, other than the one above, on a Saturday a Manchester-Cardiff has the guard change over at Hereford.

 

[Greenback]

Only one diagrammed as far as I know, other than the one above, on a Saturday a Manchester-Cardiff has the guard change over at Hereford.

Ah, the chances of me spotting eithe rof these is quite small!

 

[Mojo]

I can't speak for the XC diagrams for Cardiff-Nottingham.

I know from speaking with a CrossCountry Senior Conductor a few years ago that many of the trains between Cardiff and Birmingham are operated with a small link of Senior Conductors based at Bristol (Temple Meads); travelling 'on the cushions,' or in a taxi at the start and end of their duty.

 

[Greenback]

Interesting. Do they also have a small link at Birmingham, or is the XC depot there focused on the Voyager routes?

 

[trentside]

Interesting. Do they also have a small link at Birmingham, or is the XC depot there focused on the Voyager routes?

I was under the impression that they maintained separate links for Senior Conductors and Train Managers - hence the occasional use of Voyagers on the Nottingham to Birmingham route, to cover for shortages of SCs. There certainly are Birmingham based Senior Conductors.

I believe the drivers links are more integrated, however.

 

[455driver]

The Bristol drivers are (I think) the only XC depot that sign all 3 types of XC traction 170, 220/221 and HST.

 

[craigybagel]

I was under the impression that they maintained separate links for Senior Conductors and Train Managers - hence the occasional use of Voyagers on the Nottingham to Birmingham route, to cover for shortages of SCs. There certainly are Birmingham based Senior Conductors.

I believe the drivers links are more integrated, however.

Indeed, seperate TM and SC links at Birmingham, with the staff concerned on different salaries, T&C's, etc.

AFAIK, on the drivers side at Birmingham, the bottom link is 170 work only, some of the more senior links are 170 and 220, and the top link is 220 and HST.

 

[plastictaffy]

The only time I've worked the same job more than once is when I first passed out. I got the same job three days on the spin. First day was because they couldn't cover it, second day I got it from Spare, third day was my black ink turn. Speaking of diagrams, below is an example of a Northampton job.

On: 0356
Off: 1226
Collect Revenue Equipment
350x2 Northampton d0415 Euston a0533 - 2N04
Close doors for Driver prep.

Open doors at 0550

350x2 Euston d0604 Tring a0647 - 2T03
Tring d0700 Euston a0740 - 2T24

350 Euston d0754 Northampton a0907 - 2Y17

Relieved by NS 421 @0907

PNB 0912-0942

Relieve NS407 @0947

350 Northampton d0950 Euston a1046 - 1W06
350 Euston d1113 Northampton a1211 - 1Y27
Relieved by CY401 @1211.
Deposit Revenue Equipment.

That's kind of an average job - except at my place we don't start THAT early.
Most of our jobs end up where you started - as in, your home depot, although we do have one or two that don't - taxi back from Euston at 1 in the morning anyone?? Done it, it's awful.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With regard to the travelling on the cushions thing, a good few of our Crewe guards are booked to travel back from MKC (as they don't sign beyond it) to Crewe on the Chester train. (xx.41 from MKC)

 

[DeeGee]

This is all very interesting. Thanks to the OP for this thread.

Could railway staff please explain to me what is meant by signing a route or signing traction?

 

[455driver]

To sign a route you need to know exactly where all the stations, speed limits, signals, junctions etc are. Its also worth knowing a lot of the bridges, tunnels, jolts in the track, different noises and any other things that could aid you knowing exactly where you are when its dark or foggy etc.

For traction you need to know how to drive it, braking and power characteristics, how it works, what is likely to go wrong and how to fix it.

There is more to it but that will do for now.

 

[DeeGee]

Does it require a certain amount of hours' travelling the route? Reason I'm asking is I'm wondering whether it would be built into a diagram, a driver gets taken in the cab along a route he doesn't know intentionally for route knowledge purposes before taking his scheduled service. Would a ride from one depot to another be useable for route knowledge purposes?

 

[IrishDave]

These two links archived from the now-defunct Rossrail website give a pretty good picture of what driver route knowledge means:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080704074136/http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/rknow.html
and
http://web.archive.org/web/20080704074120/http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/rknow2.html

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The length of time needed to 'sign' a route depends on many factors, but one run along the route will never be satisfactory. You need to know the route you are driving. After the route learning period you are tested on it (from memory) to make sure you know it.

 

[plastictaffy]

Guards must also sign routes, just like drivers - we're also tested on it, but obviously not in as much depth as the guys on the front. On the routes I sign, I'm expected to know stations, junctions - and the possibilities through them, tunnels, viaducts and neutral sections. We also need to know which platforms will accept a 12 car train and which won't. Also little things like - must be in the rear of an 8 car on arrival at New Street, and Platform 10 at Watford is assisted despatch, as the signal is the wrong side for us. Also platform 17 at Euston is a good one as there is a platform both sides. Open on the right for a 4 car and an 8 car, but if you were ever signalled in there with a 12 car, you must open on the left. Also they like us to know which lines are bi-directional and which lines allow permissive working.
If you've not been over a route for a certain amount of times (6 months at my place) you can request a route refresh for it, and if it's been over 12 months since you've been over a certain piece of track, you can have it removed from your route card. Which reminds me, I must get my refresh request in for the Willesden relief lines...........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does it require a certain amount of hours' travelling the route?

I'm sure I've seen it on an ASLEF circular somewhere that to learn Euston-Camden alone is 10 days. Then another 15 to Northampton, and another 20 days on top to learn Northampton-New Street. Then you have the old line via Weedon (3 neutrals, 3 junctions and two tunnels) King's Heath Depot, Bletchley Carriage siings, and the river roads at Northampton.........

 

[455driver]

Guards also need to learn a lot of other things about the stations they serve than drivers, some things are obvious as Plastictaffy has stated, then there are the other things like where is the ramp kept can a wheelchair user leave the platform/station (at some stations only certain platforms are wheelchair accessible*), wrong side signals, off indicators, possible distractions etc, some also learn the ticket office opening hours for the "but the ticket office was closed" brigade.

* a while ago my guard (a newbie on his second day out) was being harassed by a wheelchair user that insisted he was getting off at Cobham &SD, the guard was sure he couldnt but the passenger kept going on so he buzzed me up just in case he (the guard) was wrong which he wasnt, Cobham on the down can only be accessed by an overbridge, no lift or anything so the wheelchair user was told to stay on the train to Horsley (I think) and return from there. When we got to Cobham there was a bloke with a very large SLR camera stood on the platform not taking pictures of the train or boarding it either. He looked very disappointed when we pulled away with the wheelchair still on board.

Do I think it was a set up for the next mornings papers?
No comment but it did seem rather a coincidence at the time.

A guards job is certainly a lot more than just opening the doors!

 

[plastictaffy]

Guards also need to learn a lot of other things about the stations they serve than drivers, some things are obvious as Plastictaffy has stated, then there are the other things like where is the ramp kept can a wheelchair user leave the platform/station (at some stations only certain platforms are wheelchair accessible*), wrong side signals, off indicators, possible distractions etc, some also learn the ticket office opening hours for the "but the ticket office was closed" brigade.

Not a problem with ramps on the Desiro's - they're built in!! (behind the universal toilet, and a pig to get back in without taking the skin off your left knuckle, if you wanted to know) And usually, at the big stations, one of the care bears will be there with a ramp and an advice slip. (yeah, right!!)
Speaking of distractions?? Sadly, I sign New Street, and that's a nightmare whenever you go there due to the amount of people wanting to know stupid questions.

 

[34D]

Are the 'route card' and 'traction card' physical cards?

 

[Mojo]

I'm really surprised how tight that meal relief is; whilst I thought a half hour one was pretty standard from I've usually heard of; it's usually a bit more on either end that isn't part of the official break. If I'm reading that right then just a 5 Min delay will cause your next train to be late after walking times.

 

[TheEdge]

Are the 'route card' and 'traction card' physical cards?

Mine's a sheet of A4 with a matrix of GA routes and traction and ticks and signatures next to what I sign.

 

[455driver]

I'm really surprised how tight that meal relief is; whilst I thought a half hour one was pretty standard I've usually heard of; if I'm reading that right then just a 5 Min delay will cause your next train to be late after walking times.

At which point he can have his own thread about "lazy railstaff in Waitrose while train is cancelled"!

 

[Greenback]

I'm really surprised how tight that meal relief is; whilst I thought a half hour one was pretty standard from I've usually heard of; it's usually a bit more on either end that isn't part of the official break. If I'm reading that right then just a 5 Min delay will cause your next train to be late after walking times.

Most of the Valleys diagrams I saw a couple of years ago were just like that. A couple of minutes delay would have thrown the whole schedule out in some cases.

 

[A-driver]

Are the 'route card' and 'traction card' physical cards?

Yes, well paper rather than card but both you and your assessor/manager sign next to every route section you sign and re-sign them on periodical assessment. It varies company to company though.

For traction I don't have a card but my lisence lists the traction I sign.