Multiple Magistrates Fines from SWT - too late to act?

[nick1986]

Hi everyone,

Just to say firstly that yes I am aware I have made some mistakes in the past and travelling without a full ticket is wrong etc etc however people make mistakes in life and do things they shouldn't right? Anyway I am now looking for some advice on how to deal with a situation and any help would be greatly appreciated.

I used to catch the train on a regular basis from London Waterloo to Woking and living in London I was the holder of a weekly Oyster travelcard (zones 1-9) meaning that I was covered to travel as far as Surbiton which is about half way. Its the fast train going all the way to the South Coast and doesn't stop at all until Woking. With train fares being so stupidly high I resented the fact I was paying twice effectively for part of the journey so used to travel this route without buying a ticket on an almost daily basis, when the guard comes round I would request a ticket from Surbiton to Woking and pay the difference. 99% of time they would be more than happy to accept this and all was good. I am aware this is wrong and I should have purchased a ticket for the full journey prior to boarding but I made the decision not to so there!

Anyway the other 1% of the time the guard/barrier controller would not accept the situation and I would be issued a penalty fare or demand for the extra fare x2. I like many others made the mistake of thinking South West Trains are bluffing, they wont take action, will they? Its not an offence not to have a ticket, they are a private company, right? Well I was wrong, they weren't bluffing and as a result I now owe nearly £3k in 4 seperate magistrates court fines and I don't know what to do really. I moved around loads during the last few years and by the time any reminders or court papers were issued I had left the address I gave and genuinely was not aware that any of these had gone to court but I have now grown up a bit and settled down and slowly but surely they are tracking me down and I keep receiving "further steps notice" letters in the post from different courts, Salisbury, Poole and Richmond. The offences are all from 2011 or 2012 but I have been a difficult person to track down until now.

So what do I do now? I cant afford to pay them or agree any significant repayment plan as my budget is stretched to the max already (rent, electric, food etc). I have been told to contact my local magistrates court and make an out of time statutory declaration as I didnt get the court papers, is this correct?

I still do not fully understand how a private company can take a case to a magistrates court and for the court to impose a fine on you. Yes I know its a criminal offence but surely to go down this route the guard would have to hand you over to the police at the time thus forfiting the right to any further revenue for South West Trains so they never do it, is that not correct? Please help!!

Regards
Nick

 

[Elecman]

Basically you are in deep trouble as the you have probably been prosecuted under the Regulation Of Railways Act, the guard/ revenue protection officer doesn't have to hand you over to the police at all.

 

[bb21]

Oh dear. I'm not sure what you want people to say really. I sense a failed attempt at getting your head buried in the sand in the hope that it would go away, am I right?

Unfortunately for you the truth is that it will not go away. If you keep ignoring it the matter will just get worse. Do you seriously think that ignoring court fines is a good idea? You will in all likelihood be arrested and locked away. I am not scaremongering. See this.

Train companies can and do prosecute people who don't pay the correct fare. That should not be a difficult concept to understand. If you want to protest against the level of fares charged on the railways, you do it the correct way, not by breaking the law. The Railway Byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act are two of the most common pieces of legislation used, amongst others, and yes, the railway companies can prosecute you without involving the police. If you are looking to get out of this through a technicality, you will not find one here.

As for the Statutory Declaration, all it will do is reset the clock so you will be prosecuted again for all those offences and possibly with a higher amount of cost being applied for from the prosecutions team. Note that making a false declaration is a serious matter so if I were you I would think very carefully about making such a declaration. Did you really not receive any communication or did you just ignore all of them?

If you decide that you want to start facing up to the consequences of your actions then I think firstly you need to find out from the relevant courts exactly how many convictions you have and their details.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Hi everyone,

Just to say firstly that yes I am aware I have made some mistakes in the past and travelling without a full ticket is wrong etc etc however people make mistakes in life and do things they shouldn't right? Anyway I am now looking for some advice on how to deal with a situation and any help would be greatly appreciated.

I used to catch the train on a regular basis from London Waterloo to Woking and living in London I was the holder of a weekly Oyster travelcard (zones 1-9) meaning that I was covered to travel as far as Surbiton which is about half way. Its the fast train going all the way to the South Coast and doesn't stop at all until Woking. With train fares being so stupidly high I resented the fact I was paying twice effectively for part of the journey so used to travel this route without buying a ticket on an almost daily basis, when the guard comes round I would request a ticket from Surbiton to Woking and pay the difference. 99% of time they would be more than happy to accept this and all was good. I am aware this is wrong and I should have purchased a ticket for the full journey prior to boarding but I made the decision not to so there!

For future reference, you don't need to pay twice. A weekly travelcard on Oyster, and a Surbiton-Woking single, are a valid combination to use on a non-stop train. The thing you must not do is board a train without a valid ticket at least to the next stop, unless you boarded in the middle of nowhere and there are no ticket facilities at the station.

That said, I do respect that you've decided that the consequences of breaking the law (legal and moral) do not outweigh the savings. You were probably wrong in this assessment, in my opinion, but it's only your own that matters at the end of the day.

Anyway the other 1% of the time the guard/barrier controller would not accept the situation and I would be issued a penalty fare or demand for the extra fare x2. I like many others made the mistake of thinking South West Trains are bluffing, they wont take action, will they? Its not an offence not to have a ticket, they are a private company, right?

It is a criminal offence to travel on a train without a ticket. As well as the railway-specific offences, there are general ones like Making Off Without Payment, as applied in (for example) restaurants, which are also private companies. I don't think there are any situations in which you could owe a company money, and have that company unable to take you to court (their possible bluffing is a different matter - here SWT weren't!).

Well I was wrong, they weren't bluffing and as a result I now owe nearly £3k in 4 seperate magistrates court fines and I don't know what to do really. I moved around loads during the last few years and by the time any reminders or court papers were issued I had left the address I gave and genuinely was not aware that any of these had gone to court but I have now grown up a bit and settled down and slowly but surely they are tracking me down and I keep receiving "further steps notice" letters in the post from different courts, Salisbury, Poole and Richmond. The offences are all from 2011 or 2012 but I have been a difficult person to track down until now.

So what do I do now? I cant afford to pay them or agree any significant repayment plan as my budget is stretched to the max already (rent, electric, food etc). I have been told to contact my local magistrates court and make an out of time statutory declaration as I didnt get the court papers, is this correct?

Absolutely correct. If you genuinely did not receive the papers, and you have not lied to us, then you should do this, resetting the process. You should then consult a solicitor, who can help with mitigation for the ticket offences. You will still be convicted, but a solicitor would probably be able to help reduce the degree of fine you receive. Edit at 21:02 on the 9th: I've forgotten to mention that if your finances are sufficiently dire, you might well qualify for legal aid.end edit

If you're starting to remember that you have actually seen the papers once or twice, then I would advise against this course of action - you would merely be digging yourself a deeper hole.

I still do not fully understand how a private company can take a case to a magistrates court and for the court to impose a fine on you. Yes I know its a criminal offence but surely to go down this route the guard would have to hand you over to the police at the time thus forfiting the right to any further revenue for South West Trains so they never do it, is that not correct? Please help!!

Civil matters: if you owe someone money, they can take you to court. The court can order you to pay them the money (and possibly costs or compensation).

Criminal matters: if you commit a crime, generally, the police will investigate it and the Crown Prosecution Service will prosecute you. A court can fine you, imprison you, and/or order you to pay someone compensation.
There is no reason that someone else can't investigate and prosecute a crime. Tesco could for example prosecute you for theft from one of their stores, or assaulting one of their staff, or even for theft from Sainsbury's, or for assaulting someone in the street on the way to a Tesco (or indeed to a Sainsbury's).

 

[tony_mac]

As for the Statutory Declaration, all it will do is reset the clock so you will be prosecuted again for all those offences and possibly with a higher amount of cost being applied for from the prosecutions team. Note that making a false declaration is a serious matter so if I were you I would think very carefully about making such a declaration. Did you really not receive any communication or did you just ignore all of them?

It isn't quite a question of 'any communication', but a question of the communications that specifically relate to the court case - summonses etc.

It is possible that, following successful Statutory Declarations, the cases may all be heard at the same time and the likelihood is that the total costs will be substantially lower than they are now (particularly with a guilty plea). It is also possible that the current costs have already been inflated by bailiffs fees.

 

[bnm]

Contact your local Citizens Advice or Law Centre NOW.

Take it from someone who knows, ignoring court imposed fines will see you locked up. Many years ago I ignored court imposed penalties and the Police eventually caught up with me, dragged me off to court where I was immediately sent to prison.

Ultimately, if you want to avoid prison, you WILL have to agree to a payment plan to pay the fines, tight budget or not. As I said, seek legal advice. There's free help out there. Don't go making a Statutory Declaration without seeking advice. You could well make your situation worse.

 

[Paul Kelly]

when the guard comes round I would request a ticket from Surbiton to Woking and pay the difference. 99% of time they would be more than happy to accept this and all was good. I am aware this is wrong and I should have purchased a ticket for the full journey prior to boarding but I made the decision not to so there!

Just to reiterate what Fahad said, you are mistaken here - there was no need to purchase a ticket for the full journey. The Surbiton to Woking ticket, in combination with your Travelcard season, was perfectly valid for the through journey on the non-stop train. You would have saved yourself a lot of hassle though if you'd bought it from the ticket office at Waterloo before boarding the train, instead of waiting to buy it from the guard on the train.

The problem is likely to be that South West Trains operate a penalty fare scheme that requires you to have a valid ticket for your journey before boarding the train. But I suspect that for the situation to become so serious, you must have indicated intention to avoid paying the fare due, either by refusing to pay a penalty fare that you were issued, or indicating that you would not have purchased the Surbiton to Woking ticket if not challenged, or something along those lines.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with the other replies - the difference in opinion between then is in the benefit of making a Statutory Declaration. I'm not going to give an opinion on that point.

Although you are right to come on here looking for assistance and particularly the clarification that Railway Companies DO have the authority to bring Criminal Prosecutions, I must say that the position that you are in now is no longer specific to the Railways (and to the specific and arcane Railway Laws). You are in exactly the same position as anyone convicted of any other crime who is unable to pay their fines. For that reason, my advice to you is to go to a local law firm which specialises in Criminal Defence work - if you have a choice, then I'd recommend a firm in a poorer part of town where the bulk of their experience is likely to be with clients unable to pay - there's really no point in you going to a firm which charges highly for complex work. But you DO need local legal assistance.

I strongly advise you to make the decision of whether to make a Statutory Declaration or not AFTER having discussed your debts and your payment options with a solicitor. There is a lot at stake for you here, too much to put at the mercy of an internet forum and people who haven't studied the documents and your income and haven't discussed your other options (e.g. some people would rather live with relatives than go to prison - others would not).

Please take all your papers and financial statements to a local law firm as soon as you can.

 

[tony_mac]

I think it's also worth pointing out that the statutory declaration should be made within 21 days of becoming aware of the conviction.
I guess that may be too late anyway, but if not, don't take too long to decide.

 

[34D]

Stat Dec to be made ASAP - preferably at a magistrates court.

Then get someone to speak to the TOC prosecutor - Davenewcastle's advice about a solicitor in a run-down area is golden.

 

[Greenback]

Stat Dec to be made ASAP - preferably at a magistrates court.

Then get someone to speak to the TOC prosecutor - Davenewcastle's advice about a solicitor in a run-down area is golden.

But you don't think the advice to see a solicitor before making a Stat Dec is as golden?

 

[soil]

Stat Dec to be made ASAP - preferably at a magistrates court.

Sounds like he's too late for that, as it would appear he's ignored at least two of these before doing something about it.

 

[plastictaffy]

The Surbiton to Woking ticket, in combination with your Travelcard season, was perfectly valid for the through journey on the non-stop train. You would have saved yourself a lot of hassle though if you'd bought it from the ticket office at Waterloo before boarding the train, instead of waiting to buy it from the guard on the train.

Maybe, but he should still have tapped in at Waterloo, and out at Surbiton. Otherwise, he will have tapped in, but not out. Or, more likely, not tapped in at all. Even if the Oyster card was valid for the journey to Surbiton, how does the Guard know this?? Not many TOC's have issued their Guards with Oyster readers - my TOC certainly hasn't, although there are one or two kicking around.

 

[bb21]

Maybe, but he should still have tapped in at Waterloo, and out at Surbiton. Otherwise, he will have tapped in, but not out. Or, more likely, not tapped in at all.

Does not matter if he did not intend to use his Oyster card outside the validity of his season ticket.

Even if the Oyster card was valid for the journey to Surbiton, how does the Guard know this?? Not many TOC's have issued their Guards with Oyster readers - my TOC certainly hasn't, although there are one or two kicking around.

That is a problem for the train company, not the passenger.

 

[plastictaffy]

So it's perfectly okay for him to not tap in then?? I hate Oyster cards - the system is far too complex.
Might speak to my Guv'nor tomorrow, ask to see a copy of the bumf he's bound to have on Oyster cards.

 

[bb21]

So it's perfectly okay for him to not tap in then?? I hate Oyster cards - the system is far too complex.

I think officially speaking season ticket-holders on Oyster are supposed to touch in and out whenever they do a journey, however this brings many practical problems with it, such as when it is used in conjunction with a Boundary Zone ticket on non-stop services. As a result, it is almost never enforced unless the passenger travels to/from a station outside the validity of his season ticket with the intention of using the same Oyster card throughout.

It can no doubt be a pain for guards, as not all TOCs equip guards with the appropriate device to read perfectly valid tickets held on electronic devices. The same goes with the new ITSO smartcards currently implemented by Southern. The difficulty for guards however is that the incapability to read such devices does not invalidate the passenger's ticket, so they are left with no other option than to believe the passenger's words.

This problem will always exist, provided that the current ticketing system is not overhauled, as you will always have scenarios like the one described here. An intercity operator such as Virgin on whose services an inboundary Travelcard season is never valid on its own is almost never going to spend a huge amount of money to equip their guards with Oyster readers.

 

[PermitToTravel]

So it's perfectly okay for him to not tap in then?? I hate Oyster cards - the system is far too complex.
Might speak to my Guv'nor tomorrow, ask to see a copy of the bumf he's bound to have on Oyster cards.

I can imagine that it's frustrating for a guard to check tickets in London without a MOVie - you could be presented legally an Oyster card and a Harrow to Milton Keynes single, on a that doesn't stop before Milton Keynes.

I would think though that it does make your job a little easier though in that you just need to accept pretty much any combination a customer ever presents you with an Oyster card, unless they admit that they're on PAYG in which case they need to hop off and tap out (or buy a ticket if on a non-stop train)

 

[LowLevel]

I think officially speaking season ticket-holders on Oyster are supposed to touch in and out whenever they do a journey, however this brings many practical problems with it, such as when it is used in conjunction with a Boundary Zone ticket on non-stop services. As a result, it is almost never enforced unless the passenger travels to/from a station outside the validity of his season ticket with the intention of using the same Oyster card throughout.

It can no doubt be a pain for guards, as not all TOCs equip guards with the appropriate device to read perfectly valid tickets held on electronic devices. The same goes with the new ITSO smartcards currently implemented by Southern. The difficulty for guards however is that the incapability to read such devices does not invalidate the passenger's ticket, so they are left with no other option than to believe the passenger's words.

This problem will always exist, provided that the current ticketing system is not overhauled, as you will always have scenarios like the one described here. An intercity operator such as Virgin on whose services an inboundary Travelcard season is never valid on its own is almost never going to spend a huge amount of money to equip their guards with Oyster readers.

You can however if you're really keen ring up and find out - I know there was a case on an East Midlands Trains service where a chap sat in first class every day and flashed his smartcard. It wasn't until a curious guard rang up the helpline that it became apparent that it was empty and he swiftly went from the charming regular to someone in rather serious trouble!